Tell me more x
, there is a new speed test available. Give it a try, leave feedback!
dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer

Search Topic:
uniqs
5640
share rss forum feed


creed3020
Premium
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON
kudos:2
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Changes in Bell AGAS network

I am the only one thinking now that CNOC totally missed this point when the CRTC released this decision? Or just that nobody has acted on it...


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to squircle
Wups, missed that.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

Even if incumbents could prove that they use mostly 1GbE, this is so outdated they would deserve a kick in the pants for not refreshing their equipment sooner.

Except none of the incumbents would be so its a moot point.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
reply to TSI Marc
Ok, I just received word from Bell about those 4 links. It turns out they are being proactive and that there is nothing going on with the existing links. Which makes sense since I could see it...

So as it stands now, the links are increasingly balancing out, we keep tweaking to try to make sure the capacity is best used but some links are still running a bit hot while others are not at all. Once everything balances out fully we should should be good for a while.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


zacron
Premium
join:2008-11-26
canada
COuld you please flesh this out a little more?

Thanks,
Zacron
--
"Recognize, Realize, and Repent"


rodjames
Premium
join:2010-06-19
Gloucester, ON
reply to Guspaz
"and had to constantly appologize for the stream freezing to buffer."

First World Problems

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to zacron
said by zacron:

COuld you please flesh this out a little more?

In the past, this used to mean they kill sessions on overloaded links and hope they will come back on one of their more over-used links.

Even earlier than that, I think it used to be pushing the "Big Red Button" and wiping all sessions on either a whole link or a whole ERX.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc
I never understood that. Why not simply stop accepting new logins on the overloaded links? If a customer randomly gets assigned to it by the round-robin, it fails, their PPPoE client retries seamlessly to the client, and they connect elsewhere.

Over time, the load balances out.

By this mechanism, a wholesale ISP can pretty effectively keep any link from getting overloaded, even stuck with round-robin; if any link goes above a certain threshold, stop accepting new connections on it.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to rodjames
said by rodjames:

"and had to constantly appologize for the stream freezing to buffer."

First World Problems

Saying that doesn't make it any more acceptable.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Marc
So now I'm confused - it doesn't take much at the best of times.

Are you saying there is a defined problem, and it's affecting DSL capacity, and it's going to be fixed? Or is it a "I thought there was a problem to fix but actually there isn't"?

An unworkable internet all evening, seven days a week, is starting to take it's toll. And I mean unusuable - 800ms to 1000+ms pings - means no gaming, no browsing, no web-based email, no videos even at lowest resolution

Is there a date I can wait for? A project about to go live?

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

I never understood that. Why not simply stop accepting new logins on the overloaded links? If a customer randomly gets assigned to it by the round-robin, it fails, their PPPoE client retries seamlessly to the client, and they connect elsewhere.

Over time, the load balances out.

By this mechanism, a wholesale ISP can pretty effectively keep any link from getting overloaded, even stuck with round-robin; if any link goes above a certain threshold, stop accepting new connections on it.

and how is that supposed to work exactly? Easier said then done.


TSI Gabe
Router of Packets
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-03
Gatineau, QC
kudos:7
reply to UK_Dave
800ms-1000ms? That's not normal at all. You've got something else altogether going on.


TSI Gabe
Router of Packets
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-03
Gatineau, QC
kudos:7
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

I never understood that. Why not simply stop accepting new logins on the overloaded links? If a customer randomly gets assigned to it by the round-robin, it fails, their PPPoE client retries seamlessly to the client, and they connect elsewhere.

Over time, the load balances out.

By this mechanism, a wholesale ISP can pretty effectively keep any link from getting overloaded, even stuck with round-robin; if any link goes above a certain threshold, stop accepting new connections on it.

I looked into this, it doesn't work, PPPoE doesn't implement any error code mechanism that says "try again", returning invalid username or password makes a lot of clients freak out and not replying at all causes even more problems.

We've got something coming up very soon that will fix all of this, at this point though I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it.
--
TSI Gabe - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Gabe
Check the multiple tests and postings on my account.

It's been that way for months.

It's not wiring or hardware. I've replaced the whole damn lot. Including the demarc and internal wiring.

Normal daytime/overnight - I get 35ms to 40ms pings - so I know it's congestion related.

The only question is who is congested, and who has ownership of this problem to get it fixed. I have the ticket number you raised with Bell, but after a "slow speed pattern match" response, nothing has been done despite there supposedly being a marker on my file for someone to be following it up.

As the folks on TSI IRC know - I've actually changed my hours of work to fit in around the unusable connection.

EDIT: In my head, I'm giving it till around spring. At that point, I'm going to have to cancel if it's not in hand.


noemails

@bell.ca
reply to InvalidError
this is a teksavvy capacity issue has nothing to do with bell. when i worked at bell we had a capacity issue....they ran out of ips....why did that happen....some manager looked at the ammount of calls related to login errors...to this day they still insist on the bi b1 bl so they deciced to send out modems that could login and retain the user id and password,..worked wonders until those clients snagged every ip bell had,...chris spent over a month running a script that hit al those modems and changed it to connect on demand...this is a capacity issue and teksavvy is snot being honest about it.

if the slowdowns ae just youtube related then they need to come up with a response to that,,,,.if it si everything slow in specific arears then its a capacity issue


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to TSI Gabe
said by TSI Gabe:

said by Guspaz:

I never understood that. Why not simply stop accepting new logins on the overloaded links? If a customer randomly gets assigned to it by the round-robin, it fails, their PPPoE client retries seamlessly to the client, and they connect elsewhere.

Over time, the load balances out.

By this mechanism, a wholesale ISP can pretty effectively keep any link from getting overloaded, even stuck with round-robin; if any link goes above a certain threshold, stop accepting new connections on it.

I looked into this, it doesn't work, PPPoE doesn't implement any error code mechanism that says "try again", returning invalid username or password makes a lot of clients freak out and not replying at all causes even more problems.

We've got something coming up very soon that will fix all of this, at this point though I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it.

Mentioning something....means you've already talked about it . Just pointing things out.

There used to be issues on this on the cable side way back in the D1 days....where there might be 4 downstream channels for a certain area but for some reason all the modems locked onto 1 channel overloading it leaving the other channels relatively unused...

But I know its not the same with DSL, but there has to be a way to balance...somehow....somehow!!!

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to noemails
said by noemails :

this is a teksavvy capacity issue has nothing to do with bell.

Actually it has everything to do with Bell. The connections are spread across the 30 odd links that TSI has and its the poor load balancing from Bell that results in some links being under utilized and others being over utilized. If Bell offered 10Gb AGAS ports as they should have been 2-3 years ago this wouldn't be an issue.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to 34764170
said by 34764170:

and how is that supposed to work exactly? Easier said then done.

Much the same way WE did it on the client end in our MLPPP software. The problem that Gabe points out would make things difficult, however. From a protocol level, there are things you could do to abort the connection without sending a invalid username/password error; simply present the user with a set of parameters that it will find unacceptable during the negotiation. But TSI doesn't use software-based endpoints, so that wouldn't work. All that you're left with the the don't-reply-at-all method, which has issues in that the timeout is rather long and that could seriously degrade the customer experience.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by Guspaz:

said by 34764170:

and how is that supposed to work exactly? Easier said then done.

Much the same way WE did it on the client end in our MLPPP software. The problem that Gabe points out would make things difficult, however. From a protocol level, there are things you could do to abort the connection without sending a invalid username/password error; simply present the user with a set of parameters that it will find unacceptable during the negotiation. But TSI doesn't use software-based endpoints, so that wouldn't work. All that you're left with the the don't-reply-at-all method, which has issues in that the timeout is rather long and that could seriously degrade the customer experience.

It's not just that. You need to know if those 30 odd links are overloaded and to do so in real-time. AFAIK those links are not directly terminated on the routers. That just adds another level of complexity to the situation when it comes to trying to come up with this magic mechanism. In the end this still would not guarantee that the links could not be overloaded or that the load balancing would still be optimal.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
said by 34764170:

It's not just that. You need to know if those 30 odd links are overloaded and to do so in real-time. AFAIK those links are not directly terminated on the routers. That just adds another level of complexity to the situation when it comes to trying to come up with this magic mechanism. In the end this still would not guarantee that the links could not be overloaded or that the load balancing would still be optimal.

TekSavvy already measures the throughput of their AHSSPI links, presumably via SNMP. You don't need real-time measurements to decide if you should enable/disable the behaviour on a particular link, polling every 5 minutes as SNMP graphic software typically does is sufficient.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by Guspaz:

TekSavvy already measures the throughput of their AHSSPI links, presumably via SNMP. You don't need real-time measurements to decide if you should enable/disable the behaviour on a particular link, polling every 5 minutes as SNMP graphic software typically does is sufficient.

Measuring for the purpose of generating graphs is not the same thing as feeding the data into your magic mechanism software running on the router. I don't agree about the 5 min polling. Anyway, it's a moot point. This magic mechanism would have to exist within JunOS and I can't imagine anyone bothering to implement something like this. The target market is practically non existent.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
said by 34764170:

Measuring for the purpose of generating graphs is not the same thing as feeding the data into your magic mechanism software running on the router. I don't agree about the 5 min polling. Anyway, it's a moot point. This magic mechanism would have to exist within JunOS and I can't imagine anyone bothering to implement something like this. The target market is practically non existent.

The idea is to only use this for extreme cases, where a link really gets out of balance, so the 5 minute window should be sufficient. Typically, most links are balanced enough, and it's only a small number (or even just one) that got out of whack.

Depending on how things are done, it might not have required any changes to JunOS. For example, at some point the auth request hits the RADIUS server. Is there any sort of information at that point that might indicate which tunnel the connection came in on? TSI moved to one tunnel per AHSSPI recently, and the solution could be as simple as having your RADIUS server not respond to authentication requests from any tunnels that are overloaded.

Does it require custom code from the ISP? Yes, but so do many things inside an ISP.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
So is there at least a date I can wait for, to at least hope if my situation improves?

Telling me that 800ms pings are to do with "something else", doesn't really help me.

Problem. Ownership.

This is my Saturday morning experience:

Ping statistics for 206.248.155.70:
Packets: Sent = 14961, Received = 14949, Lost = 12 (0% loss)
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 47ms, Maximum = 1891ms, Average = 310ms

7 days a week, the evenings are worse. If it helps get someones attention, I've just downgraded my TSI Review for the 2nd time. Maybe instead of replying there and saying how sorry you are, someone might get onto this and push somewhere.

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
OK, just had a very pro-active TSI David call me on the phone to take ownership.

Thanks TSI - let's hope we get somewhere even if it's just to prove it's Bell's congestion. At least that way I can start rattling the cages of my local MP's, and throwing out a few posters in shop windows to get a petition of complaint to Bell underway.

Not feeling grumpy anymore.

Cheers,
Dave

Cpuroast

join:2000-07-23
canada
reply to TSI Marc
Wouldn't simply having 2x10Gbit links for ON and 2x10Gbit links for QC simplify the situation and solve the issue?


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
said by Cpuroast:

Wouldn't simply having 2x10Gbit links for ON and 2x10Gbit links for QC simplify the situation and solve the issue?

 
Prob'ly yes, but easier said than done. (Both politics and tech issues)


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc
It wouldn't make as much sense as having 4x10 GigE for all of Bell's territory combined.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:23
I wonder what the DSL Ontario/Quebec percentage is for TekSavvy...

Wonder if it would ever make sense for them to open a Quebec POP.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc
I don't remember the exact percentage anymore, but it was something like 2:1 ON/QC?
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

UK_Dave

join:2011-01-27
Powassan, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
I just hope something is on the way.

12,000 pings. Minimum is 806ms, average over 1000ms....

TSI David, I hope you're getting somewhere with this - it's getting worse by the week.

---------------------
Ping statistics for 206.248.155.70:
Packets: Sent = 12412, Received = 12411, Lost = 1 (0% loss)
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 806ms, Maximum = 1997ms, Average = 1204ms
-----------------------