El Quintron Cancel Culture Ambassador Premium Member join:2008-04-28 Tronna	El Quintron to jester121 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 12:37 pm to jester121 Re: [News Flash] Valve sued by German consumer group said by jester121: Things change. And not necessarily for the better, I agree with claims that buying something should allow me to resell it, I just don't think Valve is to blame for the circumstances that don't allow me to resell it.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 12:37 pm ·
jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL	jester121 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 12:39 pm It's the age old notion of licensing -- you aren't buying the product, you're buying a license to use the product subject to certain terms and conditions. Now, one of those terms has changed, in that your license is non-transferrable, similar to how you're not permitted to disassemble a PC and sell the OEM Windows license.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 12:39 pm ·
El Quintron Cancel Culture Ambassador Premium Member join:2008-04-28 Tronna	El Quintron Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 12:48 pm said by jester121: It's the age old notion of licensing -- you aren't buying the product, you're buying a license to use the product subject to certain terms and conditions. Now, one of those terms has changed, in that your license is non-transferrable, similar to how you're not permitted to disassemble a PC and sell the OEM Windows license. Those rules may or may not be valid in Germany... which is why this suit is going ahead. I know Canada has some exceptions for that OEM rule you quoted above.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 12:48 pm ·
Cthen Premium Member join:2004-08-01 Detroit, MI 2 edits	Cthen to diablo18926 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 1:23 pm to diablo18926 said by diablo18926: Thats another thing, will this make steam do away with the weekend deals, holiday deals and the "play for free untill bla bla" or maybe think of doing something different? If this happens then i say thank you germany for ruining steam! Althought its not ruining it but I thought there normal deals were pretty sweet so I think they should'nt do away with them, I say keep it! Maybe in Germany (too bad for them) but their laws do not apply to the rest of the world. Ever wonder why people from over that way are willing to pay more than the face value for various pre-paid cards for various services from Ebay over here? It's because their rules over there don't apply to the other countries. EDIT: Come to think of it, if I was gamer from there, I would be very weary of what these "lawyers" are trying to pull off here. They could in the end seriously end up screwing their gamers they say they must be representing in this.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 1:23 pm ·
El Quintron Cancel Culture Ambassador Premium Member join:2008-04-28 Tronna	El Quintron to diablo18926 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 2:08 pm to diablo18926 said by diablo18926: If this happens then i say thank you germany for ruining steam! Althought its not ruining it but I thought there normal deals were pretty sweet so I think they should'nt do away with them, I say keep it! I doubt German consumer protection law would affect Steam customers outside of Germany much, considering Steam already has a separate pricing scheme for Australia, I think they would just implement a Steam catalog that would meet German consumer protection requirements, and would only be availabe for Germany. It might even require as little as a bit of legal jargon on purchase that says: by buying this agree that the consumer protection laws of X country are in effect.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 2:08 pm ·
aelingil Mmm Burnt Toast Premium Member join:2008-10-22 Mesa, AZ	aelingil to diablo18926 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 3:06 pm to diablo18926 This is why i would be a bad CEO in a company like this.. I would tell them to pull any server connection to Germany.. Anyone that tried to connect would get a link to the lawsuit and explained "until this is settled, we cannot do business with Germany."
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 3:06 pm ·
Xioden Premium Member join:2008-06-10 Monticello, NY	Xioden Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 3:16 pm "Sorry access to steam has been disabled for Germany due to pending litigation by [group name here]. This is what you could be seeing if [group name here] is successful. [Explaination of [group name here]'s actions here]. [Contact information for [group name here] to voice your opinion of this matter] Click [here link here] to proceed about your business as usual." Sort of like a lot of websites did to protest SOPA/PIPA.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 3:16 pm ·
me1212 join:2008-11-20 Lees Summit, MO	me1212 to aelingil Member 2013-Feb-1 3:48 pm to aelingil I'd do it too man.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 3:48 pm ·

fnord76 Elder God Premium Member join:2002-05-14 Troy, IL	fnord76 to diablo18926 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 3:50 pm to diablo18926 But then you start getting messages popping up everywhere like you see with the cable operaters and the broadcasters and that is annoying.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 3:50 pm ·
TigerLord join:2002-06-09 Canada 1 recommendation	TigerLord to diablo18926 2013-Feb-1 4:15 pm to diablo18926 I love Germans. I miss living there. They have a very strong pro-consumer approach and aren't afraid to sue the big players.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:15 pm ·
diablo18926 R.I.P. Donald Lee Wise join:2011-04-21 Friendly, WV	diablo18926 to Xioden Member 2013-Feb-1 4:16 pm to Xioden said by Xioden: Sort of like a lot of websites did to protest SOPA/PIPA. I hate those two, they tried taking away FF a while back.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:16 pm ·
diablo18926	diablo18926 to TigerLord Member 2013-Feb-1 4:17 pm to TigerLord said by TigerLord: I love Germans. I miss living there. They have a very strong pro-consumer approach and aren't afraid to sue the big players. Yeah well when you play with fire your gonna get burned and when its something like this or even microsoft for an example, thats double the burn.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:17 pm ·
TigerLord join:2002-06-09 Canada 1 edit	TigerLord to diablo18926 2013-Feb-1 4:22 pm to diablo18926 Germans have successfully sued the likes of Samsung, Apple, etc. They're not afraid of the US capitalistic model. Germany is the economic motor of Europe. They are the US of Europe. They're extremely influencal on the business scene. Europe is a huge market for games, I promise you Valve is taking this very seriously. Remember that this will happen in their courts. Their justice system. Which is very different than yours. Judges are immune to bullshit over there.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:22 pm ·
me1212 join:2008-11-20 Lees Summit, MO ·Google Fiber	me1212 Member 2013-Feb-1 4:38 pm said by TigerLord: . Judges are immune to bullshit over there. I get what you are trying to say, but they are't truly immune anywhere.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:38 pm ·
diablo18926 R.I.P. Donald Lee Wise join:2011-04-21 Friendly, WV	diablo18926 to TigerLord Member 2013-Feb-1 4:41 pm to TigerLord said by TigerLord: Europe is a huge market for games, I promise you Valve is taking this very seriously. Yes, I believe even if it would be just some small and unwealthy company that would be sueing, it should still be taken seriously. I'v never been to one so I have no idea what goes on there, all i know at this point is theres alot of fighting and yelling and blaming evolved. Hoping things go well..
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:41 pm ·
El Quintron Cancel Culture Ambassador Premium Member join:2008-04-28 Tronna	El Quintron to TigerLord Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 4:47 pm to TigerLord said by TigerLord: Remember that this will happen in their courts. Their justice system. Which is very different than yours. Judges are immune to bullshit over there. FWIW; I also think it's time to put the "We still own the product you bought" logic to the test, and Europe is probably a good place to do it. Valve didn't implement the licenses they're selling so it's not like this is their fault, this will affect the actual publishers more than anyone even if Valve is named in the suit.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:47 pm ·
TigerLord join:2002-06-09 Canada	TigerLord 2013-Feb-1 4:52 pm said by El Quintron: Valve didn't implement the licenses they're selling so it's not like this is their fault, this will affect the actual publishers more than anyone even if Valve is named in the suit. Exactly. And that is good news. Publishers are a vestige of the past. They're no longer necessary and only hinder creative progress and innovation. Germans have been suing big corporation to defend the consumer interest for years now. I am not surprised at all by this. me1212: true, but because of how the justice system is built in Germany, judges are muuuuuuuch more pro-consumer over there. Lawsuits are not about theatrics and legal strategies involving the abuse of judicial loops and holes. Judges do not tolerate that over there, it's a lot more rigid and a lot more strict. Which is no surprise to anyone I am sure since we're talking about the country that started both World Wars. I wish the Germans nothing but success in this suit.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 4:52 pm ·
Blockgorilla Sarcasm is my native tongue join:2010-02-11 Wichita, KS	Blockgorilla to diablo18926 Member 2013-Feb-1 5:18 pm to diablo18926 I would be fine with the re-selling of games, although I am not in favor of selling of accounts in MMO's. The account is not for sale, it's the access to the game that is for sale. Basically, I should be able to sell my copy of GW2 but not the characters on the account.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 5:18 pm ·
KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2 Zoom 5341J	KrK to diablo18926 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:24 pm to diablo18926 Actually, they don't. You also cannot move your games from your own Steam account to another Steam account you own. Personally, I think you should be able to transfer licenses at will. I see no technical reason why you couldn't "un-dock" a steam title from a Steam account and then "dock" it to someone else's account. You could trade, sell, or even give away games this way. Why this isn't allowed or protected by law astonishes me... and It shouldn't just be Steam, either. I'd LOVE to be able to move my paid apps from one Google account to another, and this should apply to Origin, iTunes, and all other similar "non physical/downloaded" purchases. It would be nice to see the lawsuit win.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:24 pm ·
KrK	KrK to I AM Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:25 pm to I AM Yes. IMHO these restrictions themselves should be banned by law.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:25 pm ·
KrK	KrK to I AM Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:27 pm to I AM True, but what's the technical reason for not being able to remove a title from said account and transfer ownership? It's not a problem with the technology. It's a problem with the legal system and profit-centric goals and laws in the USA and other places.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:27 pm ·
KrK	KrK to jester121 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:29 pm to jester121 said by jester121: Second message to consumer: Just because you used to be able to do something in the past doesn't make it your God-given fundamental right forever and ever in every similar situation. Things change. Yes, and change is always for the better, right? Bad laws SHOULD be opposed and re-written.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:29 pm ·
KrK	KrK to diablo18926 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:31 pm to diablo18926 said by diablo18926: Thats another thing, will this make steam do away with the weekend deals, holiday deals and the "play for free untill bla bla" or maybe think of doing something different? Where's the logic in that? They'll do it out of spite? Sales, deals, bundles are all there for a different reason: To drive sales and revenue. Just because consumers could transfer titles to others doesn't suddenly mean that now they'll not be interested in selling more licenses and making more profits. Logical fallacy.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:31 pm ·
KrK	KrK to TigerLord Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:34 pm to TigerLord said by TigerLord: I love Germans. I miss living there. They have a very strong pro-consumer approach and aren't afraid to sue the big players. Sounds like their Government hasn't been bought out and co-opted by Corporations.... at least, not yet.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:34 pm ·
jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL	jester121 to KrK Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:45 pm to KrK said by KrK: Yes, and change is always for the better, right? Bad laws SHOULD be opposed and re-written. You notice my comments lacked any value judgement of any kind; I wasn't saying it's good or bad. Just that the status quo has changed. And I fail how "bad laws" have anything to do with the Valve terms of service, unless you're in favor of even more regulation on every minute aspect of our lives.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:45 pm ·
KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2 Zoom 5341J	KrK Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:55 pm Yes, because we all know that fair consumer laws mean regulation on every minute aspect of our lives. Am I in favor of regulations that curtail the abusive corporate goals of extracting every penny consumers have while giving them zero ownership or control over items they pay for? *Absolutely.*
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:55 pm ·
jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL	jester121 Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 10:59 pm Never mind, I forgot who you are until I read your signature. Have a nice day.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 10:59 pm ·
KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	KrK Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 11:05 pm Uh huh. You too. I mean that very sincerely.
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 11:05 pm ·
C0deZer0 Oc'D To Rhythm And Police Premium Member join:2001-10-03 Tempe, AZ	C0deZer0 to TigerLord Premium Member 2013-Feb-1 11:19 pm to TigerLord said by TigerLord: me1212: true, but because of how the justice system is built in Germany, judges are muuuuuuuch more pro-consumer over there. Lawsuits are not about theatrics and legal strategies involving the abuse of judicial loops and holes. Judges do not tolerate that over there, it's a lot more rigid and a lot more strict. Which is no surprise to anyone I am sure since we're talking about the country that started both World Wars. I wish the Germans nothing but success in this suit. Then why is Uwe Boll still allowed to make movies?
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 11:19 pm ·
TigerLord join:2002-06-09 Canada 1 recommendation	TigerLord 2013-Feb-1 11:22 pm You got me on that one
	actions · 2013-Feb-1 11:22 pm ·