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El Quintron
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reply to jester121

Re: [News Flash] Valve sued by German consumer group

said by jester121:

Things change.

And not necessarily for the better, I agree with claims that buying something should allow me to resell it, I just don't think Valve is to blame for the circumstances that don't allow me to resell it.
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jester121
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It's the age old notion of licensing -- you aren't buying the product, you're buying a license to use the product subject to certain terms and conditions. Now, one of those terms has changed, in that your license is non-transferrable, similar to how you're not permitted to disassemble a PC and sell the OEM Windows license.



El Quintron
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said by jester121:

It's the age old notion of licensing -- you aren't buying the product, you're buying a license to use the product subject to certain terms and conditions. Now, one of those terms has changed, in that your license is non-transferrable, similar to how you're not permitted to disassemble a PC and sell the OEM Windows license.

Those rules may or may not be valid in Germany... which is why this suit is going ahead. I know Canada has some exceptions for that OEM rule you quoted above.
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Cthen

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2 edits
reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

Thats another thing, will this make steam do away with the weekend deals, holiday deals and the "play for free untill bla bla" or maybe think of doing something different?
If this happens then i say thank you germany for ruining steam! Althought its not ruining it but I thought there normal deals were pretty sweet so I think they should'nt do away with them, I say keep it!

Maybe in Germany (too bad for them) but their laws do not apply to the rest of the world. Ever wonder why people from over that way are willing to pay more than the face value for various pre-paid cards for various services from Ebay over here? It's because their rules over there don't apply to the other countries.

EDIT: Come to think of it, if I was gamer from there, I would be very weary of what these "lawyers" are trying to pull off here. They could in the end seriously end up screwing their gamers they say they must be representing in this.
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El Quintron
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reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

If this happens then i say thank you germany for ruining steam! Althought its not ruining it but I thought there normal deals were pretty sweet so I think they should'nt do away with them, I say keep it!

I doubt German consumer protection law would affect Steam customers outside of Germany much, considering Steam already has a separate pricing scheme for Australia, I think they would just implement a Steam catalog that would meet German consumer protection requirements, and would only be availabe for Germany.

It might even require as little as a bit of legal jargon on purchase that says: by buying this agree that the consumer protection laws of X country are in effect.
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aelingil
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reply to diablo1892

This is why i would be a bad CEO in a company like this.. I would tell them to pull any server connection to Germany.. Anyone that tried to connect would get a link to the lawsuit and explained "until this is settled, we cannot do business with Germany."



Xioden
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Monticello, NY
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"Sorry access to steam has been disabled for Germany due to pending litigation by [group name here].

This is what you could be seeing if [group name here] is successful. [Explaination of [group name here]'s actions here].

[Contact information for [group name here] to voice your opinion of this matter]

Click [here link here] to proceed about your business as usual."

Sort of like a lot of websites did to protest SOPA/PIPA.


me1212

join:2008-11-20
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reply to aelingil

I'd do it too man.



fnord76
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reply to diablo1892

But then you start getting messages popping up everywhere like you see with the cable operaters and the broadcasters and that is annoying.



TigerLord
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reply to diablo1892

I love Germans. I miss living there.

They have a very strong pro-consumer approach and aren't afraid to sue the big players.



diablo1892
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reply to Xioden

said by Xioden:

Sort of like a lot of websites did to protest SOPA/PIPA.

I hate those two, they tried taking away FF a while back.


diablo1892
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reply to TigerLord

said by TigerLord:

I love Germans. I miss living there.

They have a very strong pro-consumer approach and aren't afraid to sue the big players.

Yeah well when you play with fire your gonna get burned and when its something like this or even microsoft for an example, thats double the burn.
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TigerLord
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reply to diablo1892

Germans have successfully sued the likes of Samsung, Apple, etc.

They're not afraid of the US capitalistic model. Germany is the economic motor of Europe. They are the US of Europe. They're extremely influencal on the business scene.

Europe is a huge market for games, I promise you Valve is taking this very seriously.

Remember that this will happen in their courts. Their justice system. Which is very different than yours. Judges are immune to bullshit over there.


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

said by TigerLord:

. Judges are immune to bullshit over there.

I get what you are trying to say, but they are't truly immune anywhere.


diablo1892
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reply to TigerLord

said by TigerLord:

Europe is a huge market for games, I promise you Valve is taking this very seriously.

Yes, I believe even if it would be just some small and unwealthy company that would be sueing, it should still be taken seriously. I'v never been to one so I have no idea what goes on there, all i know at this point is theres alot of fighting and yelling and blaming evolved.

Hoping things go well..
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El Quintron
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reply to TigerLord

said by TigerLord:

Remember that this will happen in their courts. Their justice system. Which is very different than yours. Judges are immune to bullshit over there.

FWIW; I also think it's time to put the "We still own the product you bought" logic to the test, and Europe is probably a good place to do it.

Valve didn't implement the licenses they're selling so it's not like this is their fault, this will affect the actual publishers more than anyone even if Valve is named in the suit.
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TigerLord
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said by El Quintron:

Valve didn't implement the licenses they're selling so it's not like this is their fault, this will affect the actual publishers more than anyone even if Valve is named in the suit.

Exactly. And that is good news. Publishers are a vestige of the past. They're no longer necessary and only hinder creative progress and innovation.

Germans have been suing big corporation to defend the consumer interest for years now. I am not surprised at all by this.

me1212: true, but because of how the justice system is built in Germany, judges are muuuuuuuch more pro-consumer over there. Lawsuits are not about theatrics and legal strategies involving the abuse of judicial loops and holes. Judges do not tolerate that over there, it's a lot more rigid and a lot more strict. Which is no surprise to anyone I am sure since we're talking about the country that started both World Wars.

I wish the Germans nothing but success in this suit.


Blockfire
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reply to diablo1892

I would be fine with the re-selling of games, although I am not in favor of selling of accounts in MMO's. The account is not for sale, it's the access to the game that is for sale. Basically, I should be able to sell my copy of GW2 but not the characters on the account.



KrK
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reply to diablo1892

Actually, they don't.

You also cannot move your games from your own Steam account to another Steam account you own.

Personally, I think you should be able to transfer licenses at will.

I see no technical reason why you couldn't "un-dock" a steam title from a Steam account and then "dock" it to someone else's account. You could trade, sell, or even give away games this way.

Why this isn't allowed or protected by law astonishes me... and It shouldn't just be Steam, either. I'd LOVE to be able to move my paid apps from one Google account to another, and this should apply to Origin, iTunes, and all other similar "non physical/downloaded" purchases.

It would be nice to see the lawsuit win.
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KrK
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reply to I AM

Yes. IMHO these restrictions themselves should be banned by law.



KrK
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reply to I AM

True, but what's the technical reason for not being able to remove a title from said account and transfer ownership?

It's not a problem with the technology. It's a problem with the legal system and profit-centric goals and laws in the USA and other places.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini



KrK
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reply to jester121

said by jester121:

Second message to consumer: Just because you used to be able to do something in the past doesn't make it your God-given fundamental right forever and ever in every similar situation.

Things change.

Yes, and change is always for the better, right?

Bad laws SHOULD be opposed and re-written.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


KrK
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reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

Thats another thing, will this make steam do away with the weekend deals, holiday deals and the "play for free untill bla bla" or maybe think of doing something different?

Where's the logic in that? They'll do it out of spite? Sales, deals, bundles are all there for a different reason: To drive sales and revenue. Just because consumers could transfer titles to others doesn't suddenly mean that now they'll not be interested in selling more licenses and making more profits. Logical fallacy.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


KrK
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reply to TigerLord

said by TigerLord:

I love Germans. I miss living there.

They have a very strong pro-consumer approach and aren't afraid to sue the big players.

Sounds like their Government hasn't been bought out and co-opted by Corporations.... at least, not yet.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


jester121
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reply to KrK

said by KrK:

Yes, and change is always for the better, right?

Bad laws SHOULD be opposed and re-written.

You notice my comments lacked any value judgement of any kind; I wasn't saying it's good or bad. Just that the status quo has changed.

And I fail how "bad laws" have anything to do with the Valve terms of service, unless you're in favor of even more regulation on every minute aspect of our lives.


KrK
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Yes, because we all know that fair consumer laws mean regulation on every minute aspect of our lives.

Am I in favor of regulations that curtail the abusive corporate goals of extracting every penny consumers have while giving them zero ownership or control over items they pay for? Absolutely.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini



jester121
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Never mind, I forgot who you are until I read your signature. Have a nice day.



KrK
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Uh huh. You too. I mean that very sincerely.



C0deZer0
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reply to TigerLord

said by TigerLord:

me1212: true, but because of how the justice system is built in Germany, judges are muuuuuuuch more pro-consumer over there. Lawsuits are not about theatrics and legal strategies involving the abuse of judicial loops and holes. Judges do not tolerate that over there, it's a lot more rigid and a lot more strict. Which is no surprise to anyone I am sure since we're talking about the country that started both World Wars.

I wish the Germans nothing but success in this suit.

Then why is Uwe Boll still allowed to make movies?
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TigerLord
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You got me on that one