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rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac

3 edits

Am I Crazy and What Can I Do?

When I first moved to Montreal, I noticed a huge overage on my internet, which I asked about but was told with no proof there was nothing that could be done.

This led me to setup my current setup which is ISP single port modem, a tplink wr1043nd with ddwrt that handles only lan traffic then another linksys router connected to this tplink for wireless and some lan. The tplink logs all of the traffic on the network which I keep a spreadsheet of counting the daily usage and it compares to Videotron's usage monitor which I update once every week or two (used to be every month).

On 3 seperate occasions now (one of which I was charged a 30 GB overage charge) I've noticed a large discrepency (the last one being 100 GB difference, but thankfully, I was still under my usage allowance), reported the discrepancy, the issue was resolved and, apparently Videotron, claimed there was no issue on their end. However things went back to normal (ie this month, there is only a few MB difference, as is the case most months).

I've never forced the issue until now as 30 GB is only $15 so I just ate that, however the 100 GB has me extremely nervous. Ebox, which has been good up until now, has come back at me and said no matter what my records show Videotron's monitor trumps all and I would be held responsible for any and all overages as my usage logs don't show things like ARP/DDOS/Flood attacks which could be responsible for this discrepancy, however there is no proof that this is the case.

Basically they are telling me I have to suck it up and put up with discrepancies regardless of how much they cost me. They said there is nothing they can do as it's Videotron's rules. I explained that I am not Videotron's customer, I am an Ebox customer and if they can't find it acceptable to eat the cost of an overage that is not justified, how can they expect me to? However that question was never answered nor have I been provided with a solution to this issue.

My question is what should I do in this situation to protect myself? I think I've already gone over and above what a customer should have to do but at the same time, I don't want to be stuck with overages every month that I can prove I did not use. I mean, I could setup a syslog server as I do have the technical know (configuring would be another story, it would just capture everything) how to set one up, but my networking skills are not that great so I doubt I could actually read the logs...however that just seems like I'm going too far in order to protect myself.

I also want to add that this post is not an attempt to bash on Ebox in any way, shape or form but to look for solutions to this particular issue. I'm at a loss of what to do next, which is why I posted here.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
I had the same issue last month, Videotrons counters were way off, I called EBOX, they agreed, said there was little they could do as the counters were with Videotron and not them. They rebated the issue for me.

Few points that Ebox should address with Videotron/CRTC.

#1, the Videotron Extranet counter website doesn't update often, it can be 2 hours, it can be 8 hours, it can be 2-3 days. This needs to be resolved, if we're being billed and having usage tracked, this needs to be hourly, at maximum, or even every 30 minutes.
With larger pipes and small caps, we should have a way to check the usage in near real time.

#2, the counters are not entirely accurate, I have hardware that tracks all the usage on my lan by port, I know for a fact it's not adding up, most of the time, it's not off by much, but there's times it's off by 10GB in an 8 hour period. There's really no way for a client to object to this, and in fairness to Ebox, there's little recourse for clients. Ebox needs to rely on Videotron to provide accurate counters, if those counters are not accurate, what can we do? How can we object? This would be partially solved by providing near real time counters.

#3, because of the nature of the counters, if you are on the last day of the month, and download/upload before the counters reset at midnight, there's a strong possibility it will not be counted in the current month (this happened to me in Dec.) I knew I was 80GB shy of my cap, so I downloaded 4 games from steam. The download started well before the midnight roll over, in the morning, all of the data had been counted by Videotron as traffic that happened in the new month. Not acceptable IMHO.

This isn't so much an EB issue, but a Videotron issue, either lack of caring, or because they can get away with it. I feel the only resolution to this, is the CRTC will need to mandate serious changes here.

I've talked here to Diskace, my issues have been resolved quickly, and they will be again should this issue come back. I also, won't download a ton with 6 hours left of go on a given month, until Videotron fixes the issues with their counters.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
For your issue, you might have something running the in background that's creating traffic you're not aware of, some games have P2P stuff built in. It seems if you're running over with amounts like that, it very well may be something generating traffic.
You may have some downloader running, etc.

I would firstly, install a program called DUMeter on all your computers. It will keep track in real time, and see what the computers are generating, see if after a few days, this matches with the Videotron counter.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac

1 edit
reply to rednekcowboy
I'm going to digress a little here and add a little more information.

I'm glad that you spoke up because Ebox told me that no other users reported issues. They refused to apply a refund for overages and added that I would be charged should another discrepancy occur.

While I agree that Videotron's counter is not Ebox's issue, Ebox's customers are and when a customer can prove that the counters are wrong, Ebox should provide a refund to that customer.

That is the end of me picking on Ebox, but your post got me fuming. At least I now know that I am not alone.

As far as Videotron's counters, you are 100% correct. In fact, I just finished off updating my spreadsheet for the month of January and there is a 10 GB difference there and for one day (Feb 1.) this month, there is already a 30 GB difference, though, in all fairness, this will probably level itself out over the next day or so.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac

1 edit
reply to Nitra
said by Nitra:

For your issue, you might have something running the in background that's creating traffic you're not aware of, some games have P2P stuff built in. It seems if you're running over with amounts like that, it very well may be something generating traffic.
You may have some downloader running, etc.

I would firstly, install a program called DUMeter on all your computers. It will keep track in real time, and see what the computers are generating, see if after a few days, this matches with the Videotron counter.

None of my PC's are used for gaming or use downloaders of any kind (utorrent is used on my htpc and it's just fb and forums on the others) and the reason I am setup the way I am is so that all in/out traffic gets logged through the router (with the exception of internal traffic, ie streaming from one pc to another or copying files from one pc to another) that is directly connected to the Ebox modem.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to rednekcowboy
I check my counters internally and via Videotron nearly everyday, they are not entirely accurate, not in the least. Further to this, it has not just been an issue with TPIA, it's been an issue as far back as the counters have existed, I called Videotron many times myself regarding it while I was their customer.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to rednekcowboy
said by rednekcowboy:

My question is what should I do in this situation to protect myself?

Well if you have software the logs everything in and out of all computers *to the net*, and same with whatever router you have, and if you have a few months worth of records showing this, then the answer is simple.

1. Go to the CCTS website here: »www.ccts-cprst.ca

2. Write up a complaint against Ebox stating how they refused to listen that the counter is wrong.

3. State you are not the only one who noticed this and yet Ebox claims it's only you. Link back to here or get the other guys Email addy and do a group filing (more than one person with the same issue) which is a allowed with the CCTS.

4. Include all your data in raw form (months worth would be preferable). The name of the software collecting the data, Router make and model if using router counters etc.

5. Highlight the problem(s) on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

6. Make a demand in your complaint for a retro-active compensation for overages with interest from Ebox for the X-months you have been over-charged, apparently for nothing.

7. Make a demand for damages (forget the proper term) that you are allowed (think it's a max of 1000-5000$) and demand something like 200$ for the aggravation of dealing with them when you showed them the proof and the fact that they told you it's only you when in fact it isn't, and them not wanting anything to do with the situation as they took your money.

8. Ask how you are supposed to trust this counter if nothing regulates it.

9. Ask how they, the CCTS, can confirm that the counter is 100% accurate and not deprive you of your hard earned money for nothing again in the future.

10. Hit the send button.

11. Wait for a reply.

12. Keep us informed.

Or, alternatively...

Do nothing and continue paying for what you see as an injustice and keep this forum topic alive and well for years to come.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
said by hm :

said by rednekcowboy:

My question is what should I do in this situation to protect myself?

Well if you have software the logs everything in and out of all computers *to the net*, and same with whatever router you have, and if you have a few months worth of records showing this, then the answer is simple.

1. Go to the CCTS website here: »www.ccts-cprst.ca

2. Write up a complaint against Ebox stating how they refused to listen that the counter is wrong.

3. State you are not the only one who noticed this and yet Ebox claims it's only you. Link back to here or get the other guys Email addy and do a group filing (more than one person with the same issue) which is a allowed with the CCTS.

4. Include all your data in raw form (months worth would be preferable). The name of the software collecting the data, Router make and model if using router counters etc.

5. Highlight the problem(s) on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

6. Make a demand in your complaint for a retro-active compensation for overages with interest from Ebox for the X-months you have been over-charged, apparently for nothing.

7. Make a demand for damages (forget the proper term) that you are allowed (think it's a max of 1000-5000$) and demand something like 200$ for the aggravation of dealing with them when you showed them the proof and the fact that they told you it's only you when in fact it isn't, and them not wanting anything to do with the situation as they took your money.

8. Ask how you are supposed to trust this counter if nothing regulates it.

9. Ask how they, the CCTS, can confirm that the counter is 100% accurate and not deprive you of your hard earned money for nothing again in the future.

10. Hit the send button.

11. Wait for a reply.

12. Keep us informed.

Or, alternatively...

Do nothing and continue paying for what you see as an injustice and keep this forum topic alive and well for years to come.

I may do this, if I have to. So far I'm only out of pocket $15, however what makes me nervous is the potential that I could be out of pocket should a large discrepancy puts me over my usage by a large amount.

I was also kind of hoping that Electronic Box would just do the right thing and can't understand for the life of me why they are taking this stance. I could kind of see their point when they told me that I was the only one reporting the issue, however that turned out to be completely false.

I'm just in shock now really because Electronic Box is not known for this kind of behavior. I'm leery of filing a complaint with CCTS for a couple of reasons:

1. The process is extremely slow and will likely end up with no satisfactory resolution.

2. When I filed a complaint against Rogers, Rogers turned around and summarily dropped me as a customer and the CCTS claimed there was nothing they could do to help me despite emails from Rogers techs stating the issue was in house (another long story). This was when I lived in New Brunswick and had no other viable alternatives for cable tv or internet so it really put me in a hard spot and left me with a sour taste in my mouth for the CCTS.

3. I was really hoping for an amicable solution such as Ebox stating, "OK sir, please continue to keep your records, they are most helpful and don't worry, if there is a large discrepancy you will not be billed." I'm not making things up, nor am I looking for anything for free (the 30 GB overage happened in a month where I was already 100 GB over to begin with, if I was making it up I would simply claim the whole overage, not just 30 GB) but at the same time I don't want to be charged for usage that I did not incur.

Thanks for your advice HM, I'll wait until Diskace replies either here or my PM and what support has to say on Monday before I decide how to proceed.


WiMax

join:2003-07-12
Canada
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to hm
said by hm :

said by rednekcowboy:

My question is what should I do in this situation to protect myself?

1. Go to the CCTS website here: »www.ccts-cprst.ca

Don't waste your time with CCTS. They are another government bureaucracy where the employees are all "make work" civil servants. I filed a complaint against Bell Mobility two weeks ago and after one follow-up email with 20 more questions for me, I received a reply that "my complaint was not within their mandate", but they didn't bother to explain what that meant. So I have no way of knowing why the complaint was rejected and there is no appeals process. They are yet another wast of taxpayers dollars.


hm

@videotron.ca
Their website seems pretty clear to me, so is their mandate. Why not take the time to look it over and learn about it before discouraging others?

You just may find out why it was rejected.

Or can you call them out to re-evaluate the filing you did.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to rednekcowboy
I read of some people arguing B/W at the CCTS and winning. So don't count yourself out before even trying.

As for Ebox, I wouldn't worry. IF you show there is error and they rule in your favour, Ebox can just do a charge-back on Videotron.

Keep in mind the complaint has to be against Ebox and no one else. They have to do their job and deal with videotron before or after, not you.

And a company can't just drop you because you made a complaint heh.


random

@teksavvy.com
reply to WiMax
>They are another government bureaucracy where the employees are all "make work" civil servants.

»www.ccts-cprst.ca/en/about/struc···-funding
>We are a not-for-profit organization under Part II of the Canada Corporations Act.
>We bill participating service providers for our services. They pay a one-time fee that is based on the amount of their Canadian telecommunications revenues.

Since when does government department have their own funding instead of taxes and classified as non-profit organization?

Can't comment about their usefulness.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
I will say this again, this isn't an issue with Ebox, this is an issue with Videotron.
This has been an issue back several years, well before TPIA. Unfortunately, there's little Ebox can do, and I suspect there's little the CCTS can do either as you're not a client of Videotron.
The CRTC however can add rules for TPIA so the counters are counted more frequently, and mandate a way to object to those counters.
Thus far, Ebox has been very willing to deal with the issues, I cannot fault them in any way, the entire issue is with Videotron, I was a client with them for many years, it was an issue from the moment they started counting bandwidth.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
said by Nitra:

I will say this again, this isn't an issue with Ebox, this is an issue with Videotron.
This has been an issue back several years, well before TPIA. Unfortunately, there's little Ebox can do, and I suspect there's little the CCTS can do either as you're not a client of Videotron.
The CRTC however can add rules for TPIA so the counters are counted more frequently, and mandate a way to object to those counters.
Thus far, Ebox has been very willing to deal with the issues, I cannot fault them in any way, the entire issue is with Videotron, I was a client with them for many years, it was an issue from the moment they started counting bandwidth.

You are incorrect, I am not a customer of Videotron. I am a customer of Ebox. Ebox bills me, it is their responsibility. When an error is brought to their attention in their billing, it is up to them to rectify it. For them to say, it's not us, it's Videotron is passing the buck and leaving the customer holding the bag.

While I am happy that they worked with you and resolved it and made it right with you, they are choosing not to do so with me. If they have an issue with Videotron, it is up to them to resolve that. I have no recourse with Videotron, but I do have recourse with Ebox, who provides my internet, my bills and collects my money.

However these are not the reasons I am here nor are they the route I wanted this discussion to go. I have my answer as to my only option left. Mods if you are reading this, please close this thread as it is digressing and will only do more harm than good from here.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
You should PM Diskace here, see what he has to say.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
said by Nitra:

You should PM Diskace here, see what he has to say.

I have and like I said, I am waiting.

I will say that I did receive an email from support which had his name signed to it, but it was very suspicious looking. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, here is the sig from the email:

quote:
Cordialement, jean-philippe.

Jean-Philippe
Support Technique - Technical Support
Electronic Box Inc.
1010 Serigny Street Suite 300
Longueuil, QC
J4K 5G7
Tél. TollFree: (877) 282-6933
Tél. Montréal: (514) 282-6933
Tél. Toronto: (647) 827-0504
Tél. Québec: (418) 948-8246
E-mail: support@electronicbox.net
Now I don't know about you, but I've never seen a CEO sign an email like this, but who knows. If it was him, then I'm afraid I already have an answer....


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·WIND Mobile
reply to rednekcowboy
This is an ongoing battle with every ISP that has caps and measures your traffic. There are constant threads about Bell's counters and Cogeco's counters. The fact that Videotron bill such high rates for overages makes it even more egrerious.

Unfortunately, there are very few consumer "wins" that are reported.

CCTS is the way to go to start with. Then if that doesn't work, a trip to small claims court.

The answer is simple. You have no way whatsoever to ensure the validity of the numbers they charge you, and therefore since it's a metered charge, their word simply is not good enough. When before a judge, it becomes your word vs theirs.

Theirs in this case, as the client of a 3rd party internet provider, is the 3rd party provider. Not with the incumbent who is providing the last mile service, even if it is the incumbent who has the measuring tool. Now it may be that the TPIA would bring in the incumbent as a witness. Now if the TPIA gets a case held against him, he can go to the incumbent and claim against him, either through the CRTC or the courts.

You have no claim against the incumbent.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to rednekcowboy
It's time that Measurement Canada got involved.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to rednekcowboy
Anyhow rednek, your salvation to this injustice will be in showing your tracking records. Wait for a reply Monday from jean-philippe (unless that avenue is now closed) and then make the filing to the CCTS.

Keep records of the conversation to submit.

It costs you nothing.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
It's also ridiculous that if you go to the site and refresh the Videotron usage page 6-7 times over a couple of hours, you get banned from the site for 3-6 hours.

Nice site that is, especially when you're getting billed for usage.


hm

@videotron.ca
Don't they only update that page at one certain hour of the day? And depending on where you live, this dictates when your modem get poled and pushed online to the tracker.

At least, this is what I understood it to be a few years ago.

No clue if its changed, or if anything changed since then since I haven't looked at the B/W tracker in about 2 years now.

You should create a topic in the Videotron forum And ask when the usage page gets updated, and how etc.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to rednekcowboy
No good counting Measurement Canada ... because they are counting discrete items, they won't consider it. Measurement Canada only gets involved when with weights and volumes basically.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
said by sbrook:

No good counting Measurement Canada ... because they are counting discrete items, they won't consider it. Measurement Canada only gets involved when with weights and volumes basically.

So I guess if your egg container consistently came with 11 eggs inside despite having "12 Eggs / 1 Dozen" printed on the outside, you'd be SOL with Measurement Canada -- and have to resort to Provincial consumer protection legislation.....which doesn't cover internet bits on a wire because its conditional non-essential and handled by the Feds.?


derekm

join:2008-02-26
kudos:1
reply to rednekcowboy
Is your router counting incoming UDP that you didn't ask for?

Maybe it's just IP-only (i.e. - no ICMP, UDP, TCP) noise? Does your router count that?

EDIT: an interesting mention in the Cogeco section, having your modem's MAC cloned elsewhere in the network. Have you tried a different modem?


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·WIND Mobile
reply to MaynardKrebs
If you are short counted on a dozen eggs, you have a civil case against the supplier. You can count em, the store can count em, the court can count em.

The 454 gm of butter you can't count ... you can put it on a scale ... and the scale must be accurate. Measurement Canada's role is to ensure that the vendor's scale is accurate, not that they are shorting you 54 gm for every pound of butter ... that again is a civil issue ONCE MC have declared the vendor's scale inaccurate.


rednekcowboy

join:2012-03-21
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to derekm
said by derekm:

Is your router counting incoming UDP that you didn't ask for?

Maybe it's just IP-only (i.e. - no ICMP, UDP, TCP) noise? Does your router count that?

EDIT: an interesting mention in the Cogeco section, having your modem's MAC cloned elsewhere in the network. Have you tried a different modem?

This is what they are claiming, either "bad data" or some sort of attack (though they are just guessing at this and have provided no logs whatsoever to back this up which leads me to believe they are telling me this just to shut me up). Even if it was any of those activities, I cannot be held responsible for the criminal activities of another person. If their modem is vulnerable to such attacks, this is not within my power to control as I have no access to their modem to setup rules to block this type of traffic.

Bottom line--I can prove what I used and I will absolutely not pay for any overages occurred that I did not use. I'm not interested in figuring out how or why Videotron's counter acts the way it does or the behavior behind it.

If Electronicbox insists on building it's billing system around another company's equipment, they should have a method in place to double check that counter. At least then they could say our records show the exact same numbers for both Videotron's and our own counters, there must be a flaw in your system.

Right now I can prove that Videotron's counting is flawed, that there are other complaints in this regard, that Electronic Box has refunded others because of those complaints, what I used down to the kilobyte, if necessary and that every time I reported an issue, the issue was resolved almost immediately after. Logically, if my system was flawed in some way, we would end up with completely different numbers and while nothing is exact we are usually pretty close on a monthly basis, with the exception of every few months when Videotron's counter shits the bed.

Electronic Box nor Videotron can prove that my usage monitor is faulty in any way, shape or form. All they can stubbornly say is "our counter is the only one that matters." Which is completely false in real world expectations.

Electronic Box has been put on notice that I will continue keeping my logs and will continue to report each and every time there is a discrepancy and that those emails and logs will be used in a CCTS complaint, if necessary. They have also been notified that I absolutely will not pay for usage that I can prove I did not use. They are drawing a line in the sand with this Videotron counter business and while I do not like to threaten a complaint or flat out refuse to pay, should it come to that, they are not leaving me any choice in the matter.


Shrug

@videotron.ca
And once you have everything and can conclude that it is a faulty B/W accounting, then also give the Montreal Gazettes tech guy and at least one French paper the same complaint you will file with the CCTS. Chances are they will run it.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
And Ellen Roseman.

»www.ellenroseman.com/
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


hm

@videotron.ca
said by resa1983:

And Ellen Roseman.

»www.ellenroseman.com/

Can't say I ever saw her write about Quebec companies.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
said by hm :

said by resa1983:

And Ellen Roseman.

»www.ellenroseman.com/

Can't say I ever saw her write about Quebec companies.

She's very widely read, and has a lot of connections. If you managed to convince her to write about it, there'd be a large audience.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP