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Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to zod5000

Re: Windows 8's usage uptake falls further behind Vista's

said by zod5000:

Now with the 39.99 upgrades gone and win8 going full price, I think the adoption rate will slow down quicker.

My prediction. Windows 9 will make metro optional. MS usually rectifies big mistakes in their next version (hence why every other version seems pretty good).

If I recall correctly the Windows 7 family pack showed up some time after a promotional period. So there may still be some opportunities to buy Windows 8 at a lower price at an unspecifide later date. You make a good point though. Some people may take advantage of a relatively low price but full price is another story.

As for "Windows 9" as you put it, there have been some indications that Windows will move to a faster paced annual update cycle. That means there may be three updates within the traditional timeframe of a big OS upgrade. While I have heard there will be interface changes I have yet to hear about the return of the start button.

If I were to guess I would expect MS to offer the "option" of making the Start Screen look and act a little more like a traditional Start menu but with live tiles. Maybe sizable New UI apps options and better multitasking for New UI apps. I don't expect a huge departure from their current direction though,....


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Kramer

said by Kramer:

There are tons of major improvements in Windows 8. I mentioned them here, but there are a lot more. »Re: [WIN8] Windows 8 - best to pass it up: review Read more: ht The UI is fixable for almost anyone who reads these threads. Fixable may be too strong a word. Adjustable may be more appropriate. It is just a shame it takes a third party to make that happen.

Something that bothers me there. I know beta testing preferred none of the bells and whistles initially provided by third parties, skins especially.
While 90% of people won't work that way, functionality for some may change that ratio.
Then other companies testing for new software becomes harder for it too. Hence everything becomes harder to get right for developers.

The KISS principle rears it's head in a discussion again. Long lost to the past somewhere.

/Just a thought.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

They won't "fix" it because the desktop as it is today is eventually going to disappear. The vast majority of PC users don't use the Start Menu, they use desktop icons or favorites in the browser.

Back that statement about "the vast majority" up, please? Because I don't think you have a clue on that.
Expand your moderator at work

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to Kramer

Re: Windows 8's usage uptake falls further behind Vista's

I don't feel it's a good example to throw money at something which was not designed well. If people bought Win 8, and fixed the ui Microsoft still might think it's a success never to actually have to learn from their mistake which they were repeated told was a problem during the beta. This is what they get for not listening to the people who buy their products.

Metro should have just been like another shell for the desktop, or simply something like media center which also again didn't always have to be run as fullscreen, with metro apps also not being forced fullscreen. Crappy fullscreen apps on large monitors are not where it's at. For a portable device with limited computing power maybe, but not the desktop.

I'd rather load a ubuntu vm, and play it's built in games than load those fullscreen metro monstrosities.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to Alcohol

said by Alcohol:

People are overreacting because it's different. It happens everywhere. Even on this forum when Justin used to make changes people would freak out.

Everyones that complaining about windows 8 has only seen it and not used it.

I'll admit i didn't like win8 at first but it's very adaptable. I just never go into metro after initial boot.

Contradiction, IMHO. The reason why people don't like Windows 8 is because of Metro. It's meant for a touchscreen, and really, for a tablet. Windows XP Pro and Windows 7 are very good OS's.

I have bootcamp on my MacBook, it's running Windows 8. Rarely use it. Although it seems to have very, very good power management.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to BlitzenZeus

said by BlitzenZeus:

I don't feel it's a good example to throw money at something which was not designed well. If people bought Win 8, and fixed the ui Microsoft still might think it's a success never to actually have to learn from their mistake which they were repeated told was a problem during the beta. This is what they get for not listening to the people who buy their products.

Concur. They've started not listening to people with pushing ribbon in their Office products. And a result, people start looking for a third party products, that remove the ribbon... That lesson was just wasted, as we see it now.

Metro should have just been like another shell for the desktop, or simply something like media center which also again didn't always have to be run as fullscreen, with metro apps also not being forced fullscreen. Crappy fullscreen apps on large monitors are not where it's at. For a portable device with limited computing power maybe, but not the desktop.

Or it could be just a program, that runs in common desktop, shows those tiles inside its window and run apps within that frame too... One may call it "My Phone Apps". And if it's desired, double click on its title and run it full screen...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

Media center was just a program, it could be ran fullscreen or windowed just like metro apps should be. It would be easy to make a smaller version of the metro start menu like the previous one, and make the metro apps run windowed, they just didn't do it. While they were at it they could add the shutdown options next to the logout command also, and the majority of the complaints would be gone.

A pet peeve is still how you must use the metro control panel to make new user accounts, and then use the desktop control panel to make those users into an administrator, that's just poor design. Due to the possibility of your only administrator account getting corrupted I always have two.

It would be easy to fix this new ui to please the majority.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

Yes, it would be. But the company is managed by a Big Bull now. Thus I expect no change at all, until shareholders finally realize and fix it...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to OZO

said by OZO:

Or it could be just a program, that runs in common desktop, shows those tiles inside its window and run apps within that frame too... One may call it "My Phone Apps". And if it's desired, double click on its title and run it full screen...

When I read that, I think of the Windows Vista and Windows 7 "Gadgets". They were, as far as I could tell, "Live Tiles" that would update on a set schedule. If you clicked on it, it took you to a web page where you could see more information.

I loved the Weather Gadget that came with Windows 7. It sat in the top right corner of my desktop, and it told me exactly what I needed to know. If I wanted a bit more information (5 day outlook, radar, info for a different city, etc), all I had to do was click on it, and it took me to a web page where all that and more was available to me.

Makes me wonder why they dumped "Windows Gadgets" and went with "Live tiles" instead, as to me, they appear to be one in the same.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

1 recommendation

They actually thought people would look at that acid trip of a metro start menu, and not a desktop with a nice wallpaper. There's also no option to put a wallpaper on the metro start screen to make it nicer.



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to goalieskates

Walk around any office and see how many people use the Start Menu. The larger the company, the less likely that the Start Menu will ever be used. The average user runs their PC from the desktop using icons or uses favorites in their browser.

And in case anyone think that the decline in desktop sales, including Apple's is a blip, it isn't.

»www.businessinsider.com/chart-of···h-2011-5

»www.extremetech.com/computing/14···rst-time

In the next few years, the desktop PC will be replaced by full function/full power tablets like the Windows Surface Pro, which can be hooked up to a monitor and external keyboard for a user experience just like a desktop. People will pay more for the smaller form factor and the portability, just as they have for laptops before for the same reason. The transition to mobile devices is as sure as the replacement of CRT TVs was by flat screens.

Any tech company with a minimal or no presence in the mobile space will soon be out of business. That's why the Start Menu isn't coming back, why the desktop as it exists today is going away, and why an integrated OS across all platforms is the correct strategy. Apple will soon have to adopt the same strategy as Microsoft, or it will have to get out of the desktop business altogether. Companies won't stay in markets with declining market share and especially not in products with very low margins, which is where the desktop market is today.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

If true, then this would be my last computer as I have zero interest in dragging a computer around with me. I use a computer at home. I have zero interest in a tablet or laptop at home either. They will never have the power or versatility of a desktop. Plus, some folks game on a computer and you sure as heck can't do that well on anything other than a powerful desktop.

I would prefer NO computer to some crap piece of shit laptop or tablet.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Walk around any office and see how many people use the Start Menu. The larger the company, the less likely that the Start Menu will ever be used. The average user runs their PC from the desktop using icons or uses favorites in their browser.

Not true. And since I work in tech, I walk around a lot of companies in a lot of places, large and small.

So again - justify this statement. I don't mind you making predictions, predictions are fun, but your basic premise is flawed which makes hay of your conclusion presented as fact.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to digitalfutur

I agree with much of what you said.

I've been predicting for some time now that Intel will shift their priorities to Processor efficiency to combat the ARM initiative in the mobile space (smart phones / tablets). This is also in part due to poor competition from AMD in performance space.

However, using your CRT to flat screen analogy, I'll point out that I bought my first HDTV, a Viewsonic 32", in early 2006 which was about ~$1000 then:

»ViewSonic N2750w 27" or N3250w 32" 16:9 8ms HD LCD

Today a 32" HDTV would probably cost about ~$300 or possibly less. For the same ~$1000 today a 60" HDTV could be had. I guess what I am trying to say here is that there can still be progress and value even after such a transition.

I also don't think the desktop PC will totally go away but prices may go up and there will be less variety.

Expandability and performance may be found in the mobile space.


slckusr
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Greenville, SC
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to rfhar

i dont understand what the problem is with Windows 8.

It works great for me, of course i dont mind change and learning new things. I very rarely (if at all) see the dreaded start screen in my day to day usage. I have shortcuts to my most used programs on my desktop, the others are a quick search or few clicks away.


zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

In the next few years, the desktop PC will be replaced by full function/full power tablets like the Windows Surface Pro, which can be hooked up to a monitor and external keyboard for a user experience just like a desktop. People will pay more for the smaller form factor and the portability, just as they have for laptops before for the same reason. The transition to mobile devices is as sure as the replacement of CRT TVs was by flat screens.

I think PC sales will decline but not go extinct. The same reason laptops never fully replaced PC's. People still want to surf the internet, do their homework and use a full sized computer screen while at home. PC upgrades might be few and far between (as they are pretty powerful these days) but I think they'll still be in homes.

I find portable devices are great, but the screen sizes are so small. Tablets/Phones are great when your away from the PC, but give me a 24" screen with mouse/keyboard any day

I guess my opinion is that all of these devices will augment each other.


dellsweig
Extreme Aerobatics
Premium,MVM
join:2003-12-10
Campbell Hall, NY
kudos:1

said by zod5000:

said by digitalfutur:

In the next few years, the desktop PC will be replaced by full function/full power tablets like the Windows Surface Pro, which can be hooked up to a monitor and external keyboard for a user experience just like a desktop. People will pay more for the smaller form factor and the portability, just as they have for laptops before for the same reason. The transition to mobile devices is as sure as the replacement of CRT TVs was by flat screens.

I think PC sales will decline but not go extinct. The same reason laptops never fully replaced PC's. People still want to surf the internet, do their homework and use a full sized computer screen while at home. PC upgrades might be few and far between (as they are pretty powerful these days) but I think they'll still be in homes.

I find portable devices are great, but the screen sizes are so small. Tablets/Phones are great when your away from the PC, but give me a 24" screen with mouse/keyboard any day

I guess my opinion is that all of these devices will augment each other.

You touched a KEY point here - how these devices will interact....

I would be VERY happy if my Imac would simply detect the presence of my Ipad on my desk and give me some kind of access - whether its to data/files, an Ipad desktop or simply access to the apps. I dont mean 'cloud' integrations either.

Whatever the folks that design this stuff come up with - it has to be seamless and not impact the functionality (or try to replace the functionality) of the individual devices.

Who-ever gets this right will have a winner on their hands..
--
Nothin' left to do but smile smile smile


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to zod5000

said by zod5000:

said by digitalfutur:

In the next few years, the desktop PC will be replaced by full function/full power tablets like the Windows Surface Pro, which can be hooked up to a monitor and external keyboard for a user experience just like a desktop. People will pay more for the smaller form factor and the portability, just as they have for laptops before for the same reason. The transition to mobile devices is as sure as the replacement of CRT TVs was by flat screens.

I think PC sales will decline but not go extinct. The same reason laptops never fully replaced PC's. People still want to surf the internet, do their homework and use a full sized computer screen while at home. PC upgrades might be few and far between (as they are pretty powerful these days) but I think they'll still be in homes.

I find portable devices are great, but the screen sizes are so small. Tablets/Phones are great when your away from the PC, but give me a 24" screen with mouse/keyboard any day

I guess my opinion is that all of these devices will augment each other.

One could always doc a laptop to have access to traditional desktop components such as a monitor, keyboard, external HDD and maybe even things like full desktop PCIe video cards via Thunderbolt,....

There are solutions and ways of dealing with things,.....


Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state

I don't think Desktops will just disappear....

The hardware in Desktops will ALWAYS be superior for 2 reasons:

1. More room for better and bigger hardware.
2. More room for better and efficient cooling.

With a high end gaming laptop, you would be lucky to get a steady 25 FPS. I would love to see someone try to play Crysis 3 on a tablet. Even a really high end gaming laptop will most likely be brought to its knees on high settings. In fact, I figure two 7970's in CrossfireX or an Nvidia SLI equavilent will be required to run that game on all settings maxed at playable frame rates @1080p

Yes there is a difference between 30 fps and 60 fps to the human eye. I can notice it, and im sure other PC gamers notice it to. Console graphics look like garbage after playing the same game on a real PC.

As for cooling....compiling huge amounts of code that peg a 4 core, even an 8 core CPU at 100% for extended periods of time are going to cause tablets, and some laptops, some serious issues with heat. These systems were not designed for that kind of heavy lifting.

Will mobile device get more popular? sure they will. Will they be the right tool in every instance? no. Will PC go away? not a chance.

in fact, I bet online part retailers like Newegg and others won't miss a beat...in fact they may gain even more business. Steam sales i do beleive are at an all time high and they cater to the PC gaming crowd. PC's are far from dead folks



Darkfairy
Aeolus, your daughter flies.
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Louisville, KY
reply to PeteC2

said by PeteC2:

an equal contributing factor is that the pace of hardware development and CPU changes have slowed noticeably in recent years.

You bring up a good point. A lot of people trying to run Vista were trying to run it on 128 and 512MB of system memory when it really needed at least 4GB. This is the problem with having a 10 year release cycle.
--
Fairy Blessings,
Stefanie


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
Reviews:
·Champion Broadba..
reply to rfhar

Vista and Win 8, were specifically designed to literally to be a new OS to replace their predecessors. Replace as in new and not in as improved functions like a super Service Pack. In that regards Vista was a total failure, (which is why MS doesn't even mention Vista unless its absolutely necessary), and so far as of this date Windows 8 is suffering the same fate.

Subjectively, the numbers of users that bought Vista stated at a percentage that was unacceptable that Vista sucked given what it was advertised to be and in certain areas of performance. As new OS it died quickly. The autopsy completed with the release of Win 7 confirmed the extent of the fatal disease of Vista.

Windows 8 so far is failing at the same rate. Because of the newness of the OS the reasons for its failing acceptance is still being argued. All though new it is currently on life support. Will it survive or is an autopsy complete with a replacement OS two years in the future? Bookies say the odds are 3-1 it will be so. The odds may change with the passing of time.
--
The signal is usually drowned out by the noise.



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Woody79_00

said by Woody79_00:

With a high end gaming laptop, you would be lucky to get a steady 25 FPS. I would love to see someone try to play Crysis 3 on a tablet.

but, people are playing Angry Birds..
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big
reply to slckusr

said by slckusr:

i dont understand what the problem is with Windows 8.

It works great for me, of course i dont mind change and learning new things. I very rarely (if at all) see the dreaded start screen in my day to day usage. I have shortcuts to my most used programs on my desktop, the others are a quick search or few clicks away.

And that's fine for a home user. You have the time to play and the freedom to do as you please. If you screw up, well, you've only screwed yourself up.

For a business user, not so much. Companies generally don't just hand you a computer and let you load it with Metro apps or whatever else you want, especially if it's connected to their network. That poses security risks they can't afford. They also can't afford the downtime while you play and learn, they still have work to get done. An investment in Win8 is going to cost them a lot more than just the software, and the return on investment just isn't there.

Like it or not, a big piece of Microsoft's business is the corporate customer. People sitting at home tend to forget that, but those corporations help pay the freight. What you do is not what they do. If something doesn't further their business, they're simply not going to go there. A few seconds' faster boot time isn't going to cut it with them.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Darkfairy

said by Darkfairy:

said by PeteC2:

an equal contributing factor is that the pace of hardware development and CPU changes have slowed noticeably in recent years.

You bring up a good point. A lot of people trying to run Vista were trying to run it on 128 and 512MB of system memory when it really needed at least 4GB. This is the problem with having a 10 year release cycle.

There is a little more to it then that. Vista heralded wider adoption of 64bit over Windows XP 64. Such a transition wasn't easy for many. There was also an issue with drivers (lack of drivers / poor drivers) for many (which likely would have been true for XP 64) and general bugs in the then new OS as well as lackluster computer hardware in use during that time,...

Software support issues and many of the general problems that occur with an OS upgrade,...

So it was a combination of issues colliding. For those hit with multiple issues when things previously worked fine in XP it would be difficult to do anything other then vilify Vista,.....and go back to XP.

For those with robust computer hardware and no noteworthy software, driver or hardware problems upgrading / using Vista wasn't difficult,....


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
Reviews:
·Champion Broadba..

1 recommendation

Octavean, your post is outstanding in its content and relevancy. Well done!

I have to add something though that might be considered by some a bit at odds with the undeniably accurate info you posted.

When MS decided to replace XP with a new OS it made a big deal of it starting five years before the release of Vista. They boldly and publicly stated that they were going to make the design of a new super OS to replace XP has THE number one goal or priority of the company. They were going to spare no effort in money or manpower to make the pending wonderful new modern OS that we all were going to love.

About five years later they rolled out Vista as the end product of their super top priority new OS that would change our lives---Vista!

For both the reasons you mention plus the interface itself it was shocking to many, myself included, that THIS was the end result of five years of the best MS could produce sparing no effort or cost? It was in that context an embarrassment to the company and a shock to the user anticipating what was being advertised as coming from MS.

Naturally, Vista never took off really, and very quickly after the newest thing in town syndrome rapidly wore off and reality sunk in the OS was accurately labeled a failure by MS and they ended up two years later with OS 7, which is what Vista should have been.

OS 7 is IMO clearly the best OS MS has ever designed even accounting for the time period any prior OS was released.

Unfortunately, OS Win 8 is starting off in way too many areas in a negative way including the totality of reception by its users. Many like it. No doubt about that. But way too many don't like it and vocally so. That is not a good trait in any context.
--
The signal is usually drowned out by the noise.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

Thank you, and you make a very good point yourself.

I will say thought that when Vista was in development and nearing release I think it became clear before the product went gold that intended features were being dropped.

I liken this to my Intel Core i7 3930K / Asus P8X79 Deluxe based system in some ways. We were hearing about features of the X79 chipset like SAS support, motherboards with 14 SATA ports, an improved Intel SRT SSD caching feature and more,.....all were apparently dropped to get the product out the door on time.

I get that anticipation and expectation of a great new OS may be impossible to live up to under the circumstances but I also don't think people should get swept away with said expectations.

I mean, at the end of the day we all have to live in the real world and it helps to have realistic expectations regardless of what a company may say about their "magical" new widget.



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Blogger

So when all support for XP ends in a year, are all these users (40% of Windows desktops) going to abandon Microsoft because "too many don't like Windows 8"? Mass migration to Apple? Android?
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

They'll be forced to use whatever the MS monopoly is selling when their machines die.. or just go on with XP without updates till that time arrives... there aren't any reasonable alternatives...


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

So when all support for XP ends in a year, are all these users (40% of Windows desktops) going to abandon Microsoft because "too many don't like Windows 8"? Mass migration to Apple? Android?

Ready to dump Windows, is Mac or Linux better for me?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...