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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to itguy05

Re: Ready to dump Windows, is Mac or Linux better for me?

The mac tax is exactly what it is.

I can get a 21.5" iMac with a 2.5ghz i5 for $1,299, or I can put together the same system for $600~ or less. When it gets out of date, I can upgrade a single component in two years for a few bucks and be back in business.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

said by Archivis:

The mac tax is exactly what it is.

I can get a 21.5" iMac with a 2.5ghz i5 for $1,299, or I can put together the same system for $600~ or less. When it gets out of date, I can upgrade a single component in two years for a few bucks and be back in business.

Not with good quality components and with similar build quality:

»www.zdnet.com/how-to-build-an-al···0/#photo

Total $1,081. And you get to build it, warranty it, etc.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

Site ate my post. Trying again.

If you were to follow ZD Net, you'd pay $1,081, which is still over $200 cheaper than what Apple is asking for. If you wanted more control over your components with warranty and high end components, we regularly build out components for people based on their needs and come in well below the $1000 mark. Most people walk away in the $600-800 range with quality components that perform much better than what you'll buy at Apple.

Also, sup Carlisle.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

1 recommendation

I get you believe in (or sell) the Build your own PC stuff. I was there, sold the systems, have the scars to prove it. I've since moved on as margins were too low, people expected the world and Windows was a PITA to deal with. In the end it was easier to buy from my distributor, let them warranty it and just fix it.

The average person will not DIY rather go out and buy whatever they see at the stores. The PC enthusiast will go to Mom & Pop stores or Newegg it. Most likely none of the real cheap parts cobbled together will outperform a Mac. Why? There are differences in parts and that's where the experience of the integrator comes in. History is littered with "special" stuff for the OEM and retail markets and even special stuff for different OEM's.

The point is for $200 more you get a fully tested system that will outperform others in its price range. Apple's systems generally benchmark near the top when outfitted with Windows. You will not have to worry about dealing with component failures, RMA's and such.

I'd rather pay the $200 and not have to deal with it. My time is worth more than $200 to build a system, install an OS, etc. Not to mention my preference for a laptop,

Different strokes for different folks.

quote:
Also, sup Carlisle.
'sup. You from Central PA too?

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to itguy05

But macs don't exactly use good quality components(broadcom for instance), not to mention the imac uses laptop parts.



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 recommendation

reply to itguy05

I do not sell systems. I've never sold systems. I've assembled hundreds and I've put all of mine together since I was 12 back in the early 90's.

We're in a position where we're giving advice to people who are already technically proficient enough to get here. The DIY PC assembly is easier than it ever was. There's no jumpers to screw around with. There's no voltage settings to screw with. Everything is color coated and everything plugs in one way and is blatantly obvious and labeled. You only screw around with that stuff if you want to and that's if you're beyond the hobbyist level.

In another forum on the same site, we regularly assist people with finding a series of components that will help them get the computer they want. We're talking about gamers here, who have steeper requirements. The big expense in these systems? The video card. Typically, you're going to need the PSU to back it up as well.

If we're giving advice on how to assemble solid computers for people that aren't gamers, like the OP, the price goes from $1299 down to about $500 for the same hardware. We're not talking about junk hardware either. We're talking about suggesting only quality hardware that is thoroughly tested and reviewed by independent sources (like Tom's Hardware) and purchased from reputable sites with good prices and good return/warranty policies (like NewEgg).

The $200 difference is for a pre-built system based off a ZD Net recommendation that appears to be video-only, so I can't even compare the hardware specs to see what's different.

The point I'm trying to reinforce is that the Mac Tax is very real and very expensive. You have to find high-end OEM builds to compare to low-end Apple builds with price. If someone's asking between Windows, Mac, and Linux, it means they already know what Linux is and they're competent enough to tackle a new build.

I understand the appeal of an Apple. I understand why people want their products, but I wanted to clear up the myth that the Mac Tax was minimal, as it is not.

I live in Mechanicsburg, so a few minutes away at most.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to me1212

said by me1212:

But macs don't exactly use good quality components(broadcom for instance), not to mention the imac uses laptop parts.

Really? I've got hundreds of servers I manage here with Broadcomm NIC's in them. These are IBM servers, not some whitebox company either.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

LOL IBM Servers.

I'm an AIX 7 certified administrator. My uncle is the local CE for IBM and we've had lengthy conversations about IBM hardware quality. My job is to work on this stuff on a daily basis.

The hardware fails just like any other hardware. There are defective components that get replaced with defective components just like any other hardware.

I'd think that perhaps we could be working in the same place, but I doubt it since you hold IBM servers with high regard.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to itguy05

IBM isn't exactly cream of the crop.


itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to Archivis

I get helping people build them. I got from the OP that he was looking for something he can buy in a store rather than DIY.

I did the DIY route before I got my first Mac. Even choosing "quality stuff" there was always some little nagging issue. If you ended up with DOA or a bum component 6 months later you were SOL until your RMA was processed. Not so with a packaged computer. Heck, when my Macbook's Hard Drive died in 2008 I was in and out of the Apple store with a whole new computer in 30 minutes.

quote:
The point I'm trying to reinforce is that the Mac Tax is very real and very expensive. You have to find high-end OEM builds to compare to low-end Apple builds with price.
I get that but Apple's low end stuff is generally on par with mid to high end PC stuff. Look at Ultrabooks - something Apple pioneered. And generally they are all priced around Apple's prices. Look at that Dell I linked - it's priced the same as a Macbook Pro but the MBP has better battery life.

Decent AIO's are also around the same price as an iMac.

IMHO, the tax argument only comes into play when you go low end PC to Apple's low end. And then you are giving up much to go low end (like build quality, speed, battery life, weight, etc).

I sampled the Low End Netbook market with an Acer from BJ's. Seemed good on paper, 250GB HD, dual core AMD CPU, 2GB, high resolution screen, etc. The thing is a dog in Windows and Linux. The display is subpar. But it was $299.

I think even the PC industry has realized the race to the bottom hurts more than it helps. I believe you are seeing prices creep up there as vendors realize they have to actually make money rather than build cheap junk.

It is an interesting discussion and in the end it's up to the user to decide what they want. Do they want something a tad more expensive that will be like the TV where it just works? Or do they want to tinker? Both options appeal to different people.

quote:
I live in Mechanicsburg, so a few minutes away at most.
Small world - we used to be in Camp Hill but ended up in Carlisle.

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to Archivis

said by Archivis:

LOL IBM Servers.

I'm an AIX 7 certified administrator. My uncle is the local CE for IBM and we've had lengthy conversations about IBM hardware quality. My job is to work on this stuff on a daily basis.

The hardware fails just like any other hardware. There are defective components that get replaced with defective components just like any other hardware.

I'd think that perhaps we could be working in the same place, but I doubt it since you hold IBM servers with high regard.

Yeah - I've noticed the quality declining in recent years. It's not what it used to be. We're exploring HP servers as a bunch of the guys have used them and like them. I've got no care either way as long as we don't go with Dell Junk.

The only thing I was trying to point out is that Broadcom is one of the top NIC vendors. I doubt IBM would be using them in their servers for years if they were junk. But then again I could be wrong. I think HP uses them too.

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to me1212

said by me1212:

IBM isn't exactly cream of the crop.

Then what is?


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to itguy05

What are you running on your IBM systems? Are you using P series hardware? I series?

In our world, we deal with failing hardware on a regular basis. The important thing is that we have multiple layers of redundancy, so hardware swaps become a normal and routine thing, but downtime is not. Our AIX servers have redundant NICs, redundant power supplies in the frames and there are multiple hardware drawers. Our Linux systems run in a VMware environment where our guys have redundancy set up so there isn't any failure.

The storage has multiple disk paths and multiple HBAs for redundancy. Hardware gets replaced and we never really notice one vendor standing out over another. We use a plethora of vendors for a ton of customers.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to itguy05

Depends on what you are using it for. Laptop, desktop, server, tablet.



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19
reply to itguy05

said by itguy05:

said by me1212:

IBM isn't exactly cream of the crop.

Then what is?

What are you asking about? Blades? Frames? Storage? Operating Systems? Networking Equipment?

Multiple vendors could make a single solution. You could be running Power Linux on an IBM Frame, using Cisco Networking equipment on EMC storage.

It's a difficult question to answer.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to Archivis

said by Archivis:

What are you running on your IBM systems? Are you using P series hardware? I series?

All of the Above + Xseries. I was/am strictly talking X86 server hardware. The others have their respective admins.

All systems are quite redundant.

But I'd rather be in the business of admining my Linux boxes rather than swapping hardware. In a proper infrastructure one server going down won't have an impact.

In all fairness, I think we're drifting here. Doubtful the OP is buying a server.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

If we keep this up, he'll be getting his own XIV storage array and a P770 running his own LPARs. It's a little higher than his current budget, by a few hundred thousand, but he'll be able to have the hardware to run his own bank, stock exchange, corporation, or government agency.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK



Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
Reviews:
·Champion Broadba..

1 recommendation

reply to systemq

Regardless of what OS you choose there is going to be the unpleasant experience of the learning curve. After all it’s a new OS for you.

You’ve seen, heard, and read lots of advertisements for Macs and Windows. Right?

There are two common themes in all of them. Mac ads tout their stuff and include a specific emphasis in comparing their ease and efficiency of use compared to Windows. Windows on the other hand simply advertises itself with few of any comparisons to Mac. There’s a reason for that duality.

On the other hand how many ads have you been exposed to for Linux? How many consumers choose to use Linux compared to OS X Mac or any version of Windows? There’s a reason for that.

I extensively used every version Windows from 3.1 to Windows 7 between 1994 and 2010. Sometime in 2010 I was given a Mac. For the next six months I continued to use Windows 7, the best OS Windows has ever had IMO. I like Windows 7. During that period though I would periodically fire up the Mac and play with it to learn it. Never consulted any manuals or tutorials. After about six months of literally just fiddling with OS X I made an all most complete switch to the Mac and now use it for 95 percent of my computer time, which is extensive on a daily basis.

I far prefer Mac OS X to Window 7. It’s not even close. OVERALL OS X is easier, more stable, intuitive, “smarter” and in security far more “functionally” secure than Windows and doesn’t require the constant updates of the OS or security applications that Windows does. In fact it isn’t until I switched to the Mac and only then on occasion go back to Windows that I realize the incredible amount of time I spend updating and patching things with Windows.

With the Mac I don’t do anything. My Avast free AV program provides real time protection and automatically updates. No action required by me. If I choose to run a scan it runs very fast.

The preceding is my personal opinion based upon my personal experience, needs and personal tastes or preferences. YMMV.

Let me say half-jokingly, but only half, that if Windows didn't exist neither would the excellent DSLR Security Forum.
--
The signal is usually drowned out by the noise.



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

1 recommendation

said by Blogger:

On the other hand how many ads have you been exposed to for Linux? How many consumers choose to use Linux compared to OS X Mac or any version of Windows? There’s a reason for that.

That's because Linux is an open source product, rather than a product built around a bottom line. Companies that are interested in monetizing Linux, hit their target markets. Red Hat has a big brand in server operating systems and we see it on a regular basis. They monetize off of the support that they provide and the licensing for certain administrative technologies that they offer (like a Satellite server). Their support is the best of any company I've dealt with at a consumer and sys admin level.

There are companies who have monetized Linux and have done extremely well. Look at Android. That's Linux. Android quickly rose up in the smart device market and eventually overtook iOS as the majority OS. Linux, baby.

On the flipside, I could have made the comment that there's a reason why you don't see Apple in the server market, where stability and uptime matter. It's a loaded statement that suggests the wrong conclusion. It's because Apple's doing just fine in the consumer market and that's their niche.

Let me say half-jokingly, but only half, that if Windows didn't exist neither would the excellent DSLR Security Forum.

You're absolutely right with that remark. With the three options for Operating Systems, though, you can toss Linux on the same hardware that Windows runs on. You have to pay significantly more for hardware to run OSX. And it all boils down to personal preference, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're paying for anything superior.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
Reviews:
·Champion Broadba..

said by Archivis:

You have to pay significantly more for hardware to run OSX. And it all boils down to personal preference, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're paying for anything superior.

(Hack, cough, in, cough, tosh.) Seriously though lets look at that specific topic you raise. Can you buy a PC for less than a Mac. Yes, no doubt about it. Especially the junk or bargain PCs. But...and this is big one:

Go to the Apple website and configure a top of the line iMac. See the price.

Go to Dell and configure a PC with the exact same or equivalent hardware, (monitor, graphics card, processor, HD and so on), and performance.

You will be surprised at which is more expensive.

Then there is the subjective which computer will have the longest effective and functional shelf life, the Mac or the PC?

Finally, regarding your excellent and insightful remarks in the part of your post not listed in this post, about Linux in the server and certain commercial markets or environment, remember we are responding to a home user asking about a new OS for a home or personal computer.
--
The signal is usually drowned out by the noise.


Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

Can I build my own Mac? Can I shop around for various parts off new egg and buid it myself?



El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL

1 recommendation

said by Archivis:

Can I build my own Mac? Can I shop around for various parts off new egg and buid it myself?

Yup...

»www.hackintosh.com/

Hours of fun await.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have


joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday

join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
reply to Archivis

Yes. Search for Hackintosh. When Apple went Intel, it became much easier to do this.

(I type too slow, answer slipped in above me.... )



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to systemq

said by systemq :

...
I use my computer for work, editing photographs and maintaining a website as a hobby, and of course browsing the web. That's pretty much it. ...
So for someone who mainly uses Office, Photoshop, and Firefox, what operating system would be better for me?

I know Mac has Office and Photoshop and would probably need to buy them for the new operating system, and Linux has alternatives for free. I tried OpenOffice for Windows a while back and did not like the Word and Excel alternatives.

MAC

said by systemq :

... I know Mac has Office and Photoshop and would probably need to buy them for the new operating system, and Linux has alternatives for free. I tried OpenOffice for Windows a while back and did not like the Word and Excel alternatives. It also had no Outlook. I have no idea what Photoshop for Linux is.

Openoffice? Try it again, its much better than before, and will run much better on newer hardware.

Outlook? Use a web based email instead. (GMail etc.)

Linux Photoshop? Try GIMP. (there is a windows version)
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to systemq

Hackintosh Hand-Holding

A bit of digging for anyone who wants the A to Z of setting a Hackintosh with Mountain Lion:

»www.tonymacx86.com/61-unibeast-i···-pc.html
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have



systemq

@dslextreme.com

Do I need to be a current Mac owner to buy a Mac OS DVD from Apple and put it on a Windows machine? Kinda got lost with this discussion. It says to buy it from the Mac App Store but I don't have Mac to have the app store. Catch-22.

But before I spend money on anything I will need to try it out. Best Buy's sales were annoying and never left me alone, one day when I'm in an area with those huge Apple Stores that I see on TV I will drop by there.


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

You dont need to own a mac as far as I know.



El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL

said by me1212:

You dont need to own a mac as far as I know.

I don't believe so either... my wife just upgraded hers, so I can download a backup copy I'm assuming you can just download the ISO after you shell out the $20, but I'm not 100% sure.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have


systemq

@dslextreme.com

The operating system costs $20? I would order that now. I can't find it in the store section of apple's website. Could you kindly advise where it is please.



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to El Quintron

said by El Quintron:

said by me1212:

You dont need to own a mac as far as I know.

I don't believe so either... my wife just upgraded hers, so I can download a backup copy I'm assuming you can just download the ISO after you shell out the $20, but I'm not 100% sure.

No, they courier you the DVD, or you take your proof of purchase into an Apple Store, and they load it onto your Mac directly from their server (which, for obvious reasons, wouldn't be an option... )

»store.apple.com/ca/product/MC573···-leopard