dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2317
share rss forum feed

GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

2 edits

Does Bell screws its reseller's customers?

So I'm with a non-bell dsl provider and I've been running 3mbit forever because 4mbit wasn't stable (they had to run interleave mode which ruined my pings). I thought it was because of my old BB0050 modem which might not have been adequate and couldn't handle >3mbit. 3mbit download wasn't a big deal...

I recently got a newer and more serious dsl modem, so I called to increase the speed, they increased to 4mbit, but put me on asynchronous once again, and I got a message by a bell technician telling me I was too far from the Bell station and 4mbit was all I was going to get...

I smell bullshit... I'm in a residential area and the only way I'd be 'too far' from the bell station was if they put me there willfully. I used to be with bell and had 8ms for the 1st hop. Then they put up download/upload limits which made me switch ISPs, and one day, the 1st hop more than doubled, to 15ms...

I'm thinking Bell just screws 3rd party dsl providers on purpose and moves them to further stations. So they: 1) get slower transfer speeds 2) get poorer pings. In other words, a poorer internet connection. This really blows.



FiReSTaRT
Premium
join:2010-02-26
Canada

If you're on the 6016/800 service, they'll keep you on a distant slam and put FTTN subs on the closer remote, whether they're theirs or a wholesaler's subs. That's because they get more $$$ for subs who paid up for better speeds.


GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

3 edits
reply to GirgleMirt

Yep, 6016/800 service... That's pretty much bullshit. ISPs are paying bell to use their infrastructure, and Bell doesn't provide the customers with the download speed they're supposed to get because they moved their customers to a more distant location to make place for other customers? That's ridiculous...

So the fact would be that I'm close enough to a station, but Bell has decided to move me to a more distant remote, and that's why I'm getting poor speeds?

I'd like to hear what the CRTC would have to say about this... I'm also somewhat troubled/irritated that ISPs haven't seem to really do their just due in this. If some of their customers are getting ripped off by Bell by being moved to farther locations so that they get poor internet performance, they should have done the necessary things so this does not happen...

If this was water, or electricity, phone, or any other kind of service, this wouldn't have stood. Small ISPs selling dsl aren't, to my knowledge, purchasing a shittier dsl service than Bell customers... So why should some receive a shittier service?

Since I'm getting only 3mbit out of the 6 advertised, should I pay half? Should my ISP also pay half? How is it that because of Bell's reluctance to upgrade their infrastructure to provide a half decent service, customers are paying the price by not getting the product they should be getting?

It's really a shit service. If adsl can't handle >3M without interleave, I'm sorry but it's really pathetic. And again, I'm not far at all, right in Montreal island, in a highly populated residential area...



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to GirgleMirt

said by GirgleMirt:

I used to be with bell and had 8ms for the 1st hop. They they put download/upload limits, made me switch ISPs, and one day, the 1st hop more than doubled, to 15ms...

1. What speed did you have with bell? You negated to state this.

2. They likely have you on interleave, thus the higher pings.

3. Paste you modem stats. If you don't know how, do a search on this forum for your make/model modem, or write the make and model here and ask if anyone can help you pull the line stats.

4. What ISP are you with now? What did your current ISP say? Did you ever ask them to switch you from interleave Fast-Path? Or did you current ISP just blow you off?

Anyhow the line stats will help explain a lot...

GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

'interleave', thanks! Don't know why I kept saying asynchronous...

1. I've been with Bell since the first installment of dsl, which was originally 3mbit/s. This is when I bought my dsl modem, and have been on 3mbit/s since then. When they increased the speed, which was years ago, as I said, I thought my modem was the issue, and that is why it couldn't handle >3M without interleave... Wasn't too upset and didn't want to buy a new modem for 1mb/s... But now, things change, and faster would be much better.. They're advertising 6mbps... I'm at 3...

2. 100% correct, I had 13-15ms ping before the 'upgrade', now they're up to 45-50ms.

3. Ok, I'll give it a go (might take a few mins to 'open' the router)

4. Velcom. So far the Bell ticket hasn't gone through their system so they have to wait that Bell sets the ticket to fixed... I'm supposed to call them back tomorrow, but the tech basically told me yeah sometimes they put customers in more distant Bell stations (term?), and yeah if 4M isn't stable they'd have to put me on interleave, call back tomorrow when the ticket is in so we know they're done working on your line.


GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

3 edits

"3. Paste you modem stats. If you don't know how, do a search on this forum for your make/model modem, or write the make and model here and ask if anyone can help you pull the line stats."

Oh I thought you meant line quality test... Modem 1: GNet BB0050 (original), newer: alcatel speed touch home (like here) 8mpbs...

Aw I'd have to disconnect the router, connect directly to PC, etc.. Anyhow, I don't doubt I'm in a remote/distant Bell station, and that my line stats are crap and I can't go above 3mbps, the thing is that for a long time I wasn't, and Bell switched me when I was with a non-bell DSL ISP... When that happened, as I said, my ping to the 1st hop more than doubled; from 7-8ms to to 15ms... That's I believe when they moved my line or dsl card or whatnot...

We did that 'dance' once before, bell increasded the speed to 4mbps interleave, called when I realized pings went to hell, and it wouldn't work without interleave, so I told them I'd rather be at 3mbps with pings worth a damn than 4mbps with piss poor 33.6 modem pings... But as I said, I thought it might be the modem, which obviously it isn't.

Fact they moved me to a more distant Bell station explains everything, why the pings more than doubled for no reason, and why I can't get more than 3mbps...


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to GirgleMirt

A "host" is a central switching station. A "remote" is a smaller substation that is CLOSER to the subscribers, and thus allows for FASTER speeds for people who are too far from a "host" switching station.

Bell doesn't move some one to a "remote" to make them go slower - they do it to make them go faster.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC
reply to GirgleMirt

hmm... ok, so basically, they'd have removed my remote? Or maybe moved me to another host?


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5

said by GirgleMirt:

hmm... ok, so basically, they'd have removed my remote? Or maybe moved me to another host?

Any particular DSA (Distribution Serving Area) is served by a single host (central) switching station. It may or may not be served by a remote. There is no "move to another host" possible, as your area will only have a single host.

It is likely that they removed the remote DSLAM port and you are now host served - hence the longer loop.

Your ISP might be able to request what's called an LTR (Line Transfer to a Remote).
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to GirgleMirt

Well if only ping changed, then all they did was likely change you from fast path to interleave.

Your line stats will show if you can make the move back to fast-path or not.

Your ISP should have been able to tell you this.

Anyhow if you're too lazy to check and post line stats, then call your ISP and ask if you are on "fast path". If not, tell them to put you on fast path. If they say your line can't support it, then I would again suggest you look at your line stats yourself to determine this.

There does exist 3-meg fast path. But your line stats will determine if you can get it.

Best to arm yourself with some knowledge and know your stats when dealing with any ISP.

I take it you want the better ping times for gaming, right? If not then I wouldn't bother.


GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC
reply to GirgleMirt

Actually, the 1st time I noticed the pings was simply because everything was less responsive. And a few minutes ago, I also noticed it felt less responsive, simply visiting usual sites.. I doubt it's placebo, but could be...

And 100% sure I'm on interleave, Velcom's tech confirmed it, and my pings tripling confirmed it too... And yeah, 100% sure I was on 3mbps fastpath.

I really don't think Velcom is at guilt for anything here, Bell handles the phone lines and makes the speed changes, Velcom just opens the ticket at Bell because they don't have access to these configs themselves. So 100% Bell's fault here. Anyhow, I'll see tomorrow before unplugging everything & getting the line stats...

quote:
Any particular DSA (Distribution Serving Area) is served by a single host (central) switching station. It may or may not be served by a remote. There is no "move to another host" possible, as your area will only have a single host.

It is likely that they removed the remote DSLAM port and you are now host served - hence the longer loop.

Your ISP might be able to request what's called an LTR (Line Transfer to a Remote).
Great info thanks HeadSpinning! (and others! ) I'll definitely keep that in mind!


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22
reply to GirgleMirt

What speeds do you qualify for on Bell's site? If you qualify for any of the faster FTTN speeds (15, 25, etc) then there is a closer remote to you, and you can get higher speeds.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

Yeah I seem to qualify for all: »www.bell.ca/Bell_Internet/Internet_access

quote:
Bell Fibe Internet 5/1 - $29.95
Get download speeds of 5 Mbps, upload speeds of up to 1 Mbps and 15 GB of monthly usage.

Bell Fibe Internet 15/10 - $44.95
Get download speeds of 15 Mbps, upload speeds of up to 10 Mbps and 75 GB of monthly usage.

Bell Fibe Internet 25/10 - $49.95
Get download speeds of 25 Mbps, upload speeds of up to 10 Mbps and 125 GB of monthly usage.
These are the options it gave me after I entered my phone number... Is this what we're talking a about? In the old days it was Bell Sympatico, but I can't seem to find their services page...


JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:6

If you can qualify for all the service that you stated you will need to upgrade to one of the newer speed tiers that are offered by Bell wholesalers.


GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

Why would I need to do that? I'm paying for a 6mbps service and I'm getting 3mbps, and you're saying that if I want 6mbps, the service I am paying for, I will need to purchase a more expensive plan. It's ridiculous...

Bell's excuse is that I'm too far from their station, yet, they could offer me speeds well beyond 3mbps or the 6mpbs I'm paying for, if I pay them money. It's extortion. I'm paying for 6 mbps, I should get 6 mbps. I shouldn't have to pay for 12mbps to get the 6 mbps I should already have...



JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by GirgleMirt:

Why would I need to do that? I'm paying for a 6mbps service and I'm getting 3mbps, and you're saying that if I want 6mbps, the service I am paying for, I will need to purchase a more expensive plan. It's ridiculous...

No, you're paying for up to 6Mbps, legally they're providing you the service that you're paying for.

said by GirgleMirt:

Bell's excuse is that I'm too far from their station, yet, they could offer me speeds well beyond 3mbps or the 6mpbs I'm paying for, if I pay them money. It's extortion. I'm paying for 6 mbps, I should get 6 mbps. I shouldn't have to pay for 12mbps to get the 6 mbps I should already have...

The tiers that Bell offers uses what's known as a remote DSLAM, station as you call it and that is the only way you will be getting a faster speed. If you upgrade to a faster tier through a reseller you will be moved to a remote DSLAM.

GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC

2 edits

Alright, so let's pretend one second that this is how things work. I buy the service for "up to 15 mbps", then I get 5, oooh, you're paying for "up to" 15 mbps and you get 5, you want more than 5, pay for the 25... Ridiculous!

It's bullshit... I'm getting 1/2 of 6; 3 mbps, or 4 mbit with horrible latency... And you're saying the reason is that Bell wants more $$$ to give me the 6mpbs I should be getting in the first place? I'm already paying for 6mbps ..... I need to pay for 15 mbps so I get what ... ? 6? 7? Then what if I want the 15, I have to pay for 25? 30? And then I'll get what, half, which is 12.5? It's really ridiculous. Really god damn ridiculous...

Again, Velcom and smaller ISP's customers are getting screwed in the butt. If Velcom sells 6 mbps, it probably pays for 6 mbps. If it pays for 6 mbps, it should get 6 mbps so that the customers who pay them for 6 mbps get 6 mbps, and not only half... "up to" is bullshit. Yeah sure it's "up to", it's up to Bell whether or not I can get 6 mbps, and they obviously don't want to take the steps so that customers of their resellers get the 6 mbps, because they want people to buy it directly from them.

It's really bullshit. I was with bell 2 times, until they added 25gigs limits and I had to look for another provider, this happened twice. Now this bullshit... *mad*



JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Right now your internet is using ADSL, which is served from the central office AKA the CO, CO's are usually far from your house and because the length of the copper has to go a long distance your speed drops dramatically.

Any of the new tiers use either ADSL2 or VDSL2, these protocols are served from a remote and remotes are usually within 1 km at most from your house and because of this the speeds they support are much higher than what you can get from the central office.

The term "up to" is used by the broadband industry for residential internet because they do not provide any guarantee of service reliability or speed, so as long as you have a working connection and are able to access the internet they are providing you with service and legally their is nothing that you can do.

----

The new Bell 5/1Mbps speed profile is using the newer ADSL2 protocols and are being served from a remote.



The FACTS

@videotron.ca
reply to GirgleMirt

said by GirgleMirt:

It's bullshit...

"up to" is bullshit.

It's really bullshit.

Now this bullshit... *mad*

And this, my friends, are the FACTS of telecom in Canada.


Mirt

@rogers.com

I'm surprised there's no classactuon lawsuit against them for that... If you bought eggs and got up to 12 eggs but only got 6, or got an 'up to 50%' off but when purchased and later learned you only got 30%, it wouldn't fly.

We all realize 3m internet is much shittier than 6, faster is better, and bell knows this because it sells fasterplans. So why the 6m bullshit... If it cant offer 6, sell what you can offer. It's really a rippoff. Customers pay the same for less...


GreenEnvy22

join:2011-08-04
St Catharines, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·ikTel Networks
reply to GirgleMirt

While I hate bell with a passion seldom seen in life, in this case you do need to understand the different technologies at play.
ADSL and VDSL are served by somewhat different infrastructure. So on their old ADSL system you can only get 3 meg, even though you pay for 6. I agree you should get a discount if they can only put you on a lower profile, but thats unlikely to happen.

On VDSL, you might be able to get the whole 25/10, because the network it runs on is somewhat different. Maybe you can't, maybe you can only get the 10/7, or even less, but it's not like it's going to be a constant "you can only get 50% of the rated speed". Maybe you max out at 9/5, switching you from the 10/7 to the 25/7 plan will still result in 9/5, so there would be no point to go to that higher tier (well maybe for higher monthly cap).

We had that exact situation at our office. Our 6meg/800k service could only run on the 3meg profile. Once we heard VDSL was available, we inquired and found we could do the full 25/10 (well 25/7 on business).


morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to GirgleMirt

rofl, It can offer 6 You just live to far from the C/o which is where 6 is offered from, if you want to order 15 or 25 you will be moved to the remote which offers it and magically u will get 15 or 25. its as simple as that. You either pay up or accept the limitations of your speed based on distance. The remote is Not for customers such as yourself on basic Service its for the ones who cannot phsyically get the 15 or 25 from the c/o
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.


GeoStar

join:2011-02-10
j2e6f5

1 edit

Seems I only get 3 mbits also though 6 is promised ,

can I pay half of the bill if I promise the whole amount to that olde corporate pirate hell ?


Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal

Nope, that's why Bell and the other DSL providers always say the speed is "Up to".


GeoStar

join:2011-02-10
j2e6f5
reply to GirgleMirt

I guess that makes it ok what ever they say

but If I were to pay like they serve I go to jail ?

Wonder why



FiReSTaRT
Premium
join:2010-02-26
Canada
Reviews:
·Velcom

You are paying for a DSL connection with speeds up to 6Mbps. Your ISP will pay Bell the same lb of flesh whether you're getting 2Mbps or 5.1Mbps (that's around the maximum for a 6Mbps connection as it has 15% overhead) and if they gave you a 50% discount, they'd be losing money on you, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any discounts. Upgrade, move to cable or deal with it. Those are your options.
--
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.
—George Bernard Shaw

Expand your moderator at work

GirgleMirt

join:2002-11-01
Saint-Laurent, QC
reply to GirgleMirt

Re: Does Bell screws its reseller's customers?

I find the whole thing distasteful. 1) the way Bell conducts its business and 2) the way people seemed to have grown accustomed to it and defend it.

1) If Bell cannot provide its customers with 6mbps service, it's reprehensible to advertise such a service. If all they can provide their customers is a 2-5mbps service, that's what they should advertise. If Bell can only provide a customer with 2mbps, then it should not charge the same as a customer who's getting 2.5 times more bandwidth; 5mbps.

Simple, Bell should have tiers, price for 2mbps, 3mbps, 4mbps and 5mbps, and it should advertise it as such. If you can't get 5mbps, then ok, why should you pay the same as someone who's getting 5mbps?

2) How can the CRTC and consumers stand for this "up to" bullshit? I'm surprised there's not a lot more noise about this because frankly it's infuriating.

Take telephone. There's no such bullshit, everybody gets the same service and pays the same price. Now because one lives 'farther' to a Bell host they should pay more, or get a shittier telephone service? Electricity? Oh, sorry, you're a bit farther from Hydro station, your electricity sucks and if you want the same electricity as everybody else, pay 2x as much?



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22

said by GirgleMirt:

Simple, Bell should have tiers, price for 2mbps, 3mbps, 4mbps and 5mbps, and it should advertise it as such. If you can't get 5mbps, then ok, why should you pay the same as someone who's getting 5mbps?

The tariff prices of 6 meg and 50 meg are pretty much the same (maybe a dollar between the FTTN 6 and 25 meg services), so there's no point in Bell offering this. The fixed costs don't change based on speed, they consider all the costs of maintaining the physical line, the DSLAM port, all that stuff. The speed component is paid for based on the CBB charges.

In other words, even if you could be sold a 2 megabit tier instead of 6 megabit, the fixed costs would be identical, and you wouldn't save any money (unless your ISP chose to price out typical usage for the slower speed differently). There's nobody stopping an ISP from selling services based on actual speed rather than sync speed.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to GirgleMirt


Bells latest filing from January 28.
»crtc.gc.ca/public/8740/2013/b2/1829770.zip

--

said by GirgleMirt:

Simple, Bell should have tiers, price for 2mbps, 3mbps, 4mbps and 5mbps, and it should advertise it as such. If you can't get 5mbps, then ok, why should you pay the same as someone who's getting 5mbps?

ISPs do not only base their price on speed, speed is only a factor the cost of service is mostly the capacity.