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CRTC

@rogers.com

Beat them at their own game!

CRTC = Canadians let Rogers Take Control.

The only way around this craziness is for all Canadians to band together by starting the first Non-profit ISP Co-operative. All registered members would own the ISP and all members would get unlimited service for cost + 5%. All profits go back into the co-op to improve service. The entire system is run by volunteer members to keep our costs down. Would work exactly the same way non-profit co-op housing does. Would you be willing to give a few hours of your time every month to keep your own ISP running, in exchange for the lowest cost possible for unrestricted use? I would! Anyone want to start the first non-profit ISP Co-op in Canada? I'm in!
Expand your moderator at work


zacron
Premium
join:2008-11-26
canada
reply to CRTC

Re: Beat them at their own game!

said by CRTC :

CRTC = Canadians let Rogers Take Control.

The only way around this craziness is for all Canadians to band together by starting the first Non-profit ISP Co-operative. All registered members would own the ISP and all members would get unlimited service for cost + 5%. All profits go back into the co-op to improve service. The entire system is run by volunteer members to keep our costs down. Would work exactly the same way non-profit co-op housing does. Would you be willing to give a few hours of your time every month to keep your own ISP running, in exchange for the lowest cost possible for unrestricted use? I would! Anyone want to start the first non-profit ISP Co-op in Canada? I'm in!

I could put about 1000 issues on the table with this but i don't want to be a "silly nanny".
--
"Recognize, Realize, and Repent"

pcfxer

join:2006-12-11
Orleans, ON
reply to CRTC
Yes, yes...telecom engineers work for free all the time.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to CRTC
The biggest problem with this is the couple billion dollars required to get started on a reasonably large scale and paying interest on that loan.

The second biggest problem is red tape... neighborhood (NIMBY), municipal, provincial, federal, regulatory, legal, incumbents, taxes, trade unions, etc.

The third is you would need a small armada of fiber professionals and civil/construction/electrical engineers to build the outside plant and this is a full-time job if you want to get any remotely serious progress done, not a part-time volunteer thing. Same goes for most other jobs in billion+ dollars organization.

If professionals give some of their time to the co-op or accept a significant wage downgrade for service, they will end up paying far more than "cost+5%" for their internet, so this wouldn't be their real motivation for accepting the job.

Also, "cost+5%" may end up pretty costly as a 3rd-wire even if you tried to use as many interns as possible for tax credits and saving on wages.


light bulb

@videotron.ca
said by InvalidError:

The biggest problem with this is the couple billion dollars required to get started on a reasonably large scale and paying interest on that loan.

Also, "cost+5%" may end up pretty costly as a 3rd-wire even if you tried to use as many interns as possible for tax credits and saving on wages.

Revenue Canada will volunteer free money and special tax refunds to keep it afloat... Wait a sec... didn't bell get that?
*scratches head*

MrMazda86

join:2013-01-29
Kitchener, ON
Yes... They most definitely did... More than once actually.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to CRTC
Bell (and Videotron, Gaz Metro, and Hydro Quebec) is still the only company that gets guaranteed access to public property to install their network, able to dig up a city street any time they want even if the city wants to refuse.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


underubb

@teksavvy.com
yeah the only revolution that I could see happening is for down town communities to make there own distributed networks sharing connections to the Internet. the problem with this idea is the hardware and community interest in this sort of thing is as of yet lacking. If more people were interested or long range line of sight links were less weather dependant it would have a better chance.

camelot

join:2008-04-12
Whitby, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to CRTC
I'm not sure you have any idea of the costs involved. Cost+5% isn't going to cut it, not by a long shot.

Engineers do not, and will not volunteer. They are more likely to donate a few hours at a food bank.

The best thing YOU can do, is leave the incumbents and stay with an already established IISP. Not perfect, but it's the best we have at this point.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
said by camelot:

Engineers do not, and will not volunteer.

Many engineers might volunteer (fostering social/community progress is supposed to be a core value for professional engineers) but the amount of time they can afford to spare for it would be insignificant next to the scale of this sort of project.

The biggest problem with part-timers is that between volunteering days, full-time engineers would likely advance files far enough that part-timers would spend most of their time simply catching up with everything that has happened since their last visit.


CRTC

@rogers.com
reply to CRTC
Here's an interesting article on this subject.

»www.alliancedatacom.com/isp/so_you_want.asp


RMerlin

join:2009-10-09
Montreal, QC
reply to CRTC
said by CRTC :

CRTC = Canadians let Rogers Take Control.

The only way around this craziness is for all Canadians to band together by starting the first Non-profit ISP Co-operative.

There's already a cooperative out there:

»www.cooptel.qc.ca/en-indexe.php

It was formerly known as CAM back in the dialup days.


nettles

@teksavvy.com
Wouldn't it just be simpler to get people to drop Rogers?

If companies like Netflix saw Rogers as competition and offered tips on things like OTA and internet alternatives on their website then that would help.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

2 edits
said by nettles :

Wouldn't it just be simpler to get people to drop Rogers?

If companies like Netflix saw Rogers as competition and offered tips on things like OTA and internet alternatives on their website then that would help.

The problem is that as much as the majority of people on these forums loathe Rogers and Bell, they are never going to away.

Without the last might mile infrastructure from Rogers and Bell, third party providers wouldn't be able to operate.

said by RMerlin:

There's already a cooperative out there:

»www.cooptel.qc.ca/en-indexe.php

It was formerly known as CAM back in the dialup days.

Despite the novel idea behind the non-profit co-op ISP, they're rates are expensive and caps are the same or worse than the big 3.

slidebite

join:2012-12-07
Lethbridge, AB
reply to CRTC
How about just support a fair priced good service competitor with structure in place like Teksavvy? Sure, they're not everywhere yet but you not for profit all volunteer force certainly won't be either.


MadCow

@electronicbox.net
reply to CRTC
You know that coops can have paid employees. Even the elected members of the direction can be paid. Before broadband, I was a coop member of cam.org which did dial up internet services at a better price than anyone else in montreal and we had access to its books and had yearly meetings where you could elect new members to the direction, present yourself for a post or talk about anything publicly to the other members. The regular staff was paid and it was pretty big for the time. Then broadband appeared and all those phone line ISPs disappeared, coops as well as private ones.

With the new CRTC tariffs, it would be possible for a coop to be formed, but the initial costs are much higher than they were for dial up ISPs. You'd need to either get 5000+ people to contribute their first month just to get the fund to start building up a business. Then you'd have to do all the work of building a business with none of the potential rewards you'd get if it were your own.

Although I can see why some people think the proposition is far fetched, I don't think its ridiculous at all. If telecoms belonged to its users rather than to stock holders, they would favor their user's service quality over its quarterly profit reports.


RMerlin

join:2009-10-09
Montreal, QC
reply to TypeS
said by TypeS:

said by RMerlin:

There's already a cooperative out there:

»www.cooptel.qc.ca/en-indexe.php

It was formerly known as CAM back in the dialup days.

Despite the novel idea behind the non-profit co-op ISP, they're rates are expensive and caps are the same or worse than the big 3.

Oh, I know. Just pointing out to the OP that the idea isn't new - it goes all the way back to the 90s, and it hasn't helped in any way with pricing/service.


King Sull
Premium
join:2012-03-26
Etobicoke, ON
reply to CRTC
Someone start a kickstarter project to see where it goes. Hey, at the least it will do is raise awareness and get the idea going.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
said by King Sull:

Someone start a kickstarter project to see where it goes. Hey, at the least it will do is raise awareness and get the idea going.

Prolly have a better chance to get the Death Star built vs. this. lol
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


CRTC

@rogers.com
reply to CRTC
The first rule of business (especially for new start ups in the ISP game) is don’t buy it, if you can lease it! Any new venture is cash intensive, especially since there is very little cash flow at the beginning, so putting out a ton of cash for buildings, equipment etc, doesn’t make sense, when you can lease it for a lot less.

But, why do things the hard way? If we are going to start an ISP Co-op it makes more sense to buy an existing ISP provider and turn it into a non-profit Co-op. There are quite a few small and medium ISP’s around that could be purchased at a reasonable cost. That route would make much more sense, and would get the Co-op out of the gate a lot faster!

Will it work? The only reason it won’t is if not enough people don’t want to do it! Unfortunately Canadians are very complacent, we are very motivated to complain about Rogers and Bell, but not motivated at all to do anything about them! Mr. Mulroney said it much better then I ever could, when he brought in the GST, and I quote “Canadians will hum and haw, bitch and complain about the GST for a few months, then they’ll shut-up and pay it” he knows us very well!

Remember the old saying “People will always get the government they settle for, not the one they deserve!”, and I for one believe we deserve a hell of a lot better then what we have now! Same applies to our ISP providers. WE allowed them to take over and screw us at every turn because of our “I’m alright, Jack” mentality. In other words, if whatever anyone does to you (ISP or government) is tolerable enough to the individual (i.e. I’ll still be alright) If the other guy is not, too bad for him! And that’s why we have the situation we have, because we don’t stand up together, and kick their ass!

Unless we do something about it now, we are really going to get reamed later on! Look ahead a few years, what do you see on the horizon? I see the CRTC removing caps and approving costs for internet use per Gigabyte, then 2 years farther down, cost per Megabyte, 2 years more and cost per Kilobyte, 2 years farther down again, cost per byte will rear its ugly head, courtesy of Rogers and Bell and all their bedroom buddies at the CRTC and other various government agencies!

Unless you can think of one good reason to wait, the time to fight back is now!