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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia

First nations group pulls out of pipeline hearings

In a nutshell, they ran out of money.

Coastal First Nations have left the federal review of the Northern Gateway pipeline plan, saying they've run out of money and patience.
Executive director Art Sterritt has told the panel the group representing nine aboriginal bands from the B.C. coast and Haida Gwaii has spent more than three times the amount of funding allotted by the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency four years ago. Sterritt said the approximately $280,000 they had cannot compare to the $250 million Enbridge is spending on a team of lawyers.

On top of all that with Harper changing the rules of the game, and allowing cabinet to make the decision, thus making the hearings a sham.

LINK
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

i'm thinking this should be in CanPol.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

I'm thinking that it should be known by all Canadians, not just the few who are permitted to access CanPol.



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

that news is available to any one...however, this discussion is likely going to turn political in nature (if anyone actually bothers replying), hence my suggestion it should likely be in CanPol (where it might end up anyway).



shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to elwoodblues

One group pulls out and another pulls in.

*shrug*

There is also an a first nations group pro oil and started their own thing and will grant access across their lands.

Personally I think they should just allow it. Better to have an oil spill there than across Quebec and Ontario.

NIMBY.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do people care to oppose such a thing in the first place? Accidents are extremely rare.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia

Have you not seen the Enbridge track record?
Read up on the Michigan oil spill to start with.

The biggest issue is the sham these hearings are. Harper being in favour is going to override any negative decision anyway.

It's like municipalities trying to challenge developers at an OMB hearing. The OMB usually rubber stamps the developers appeal, wasting the taxpayers money on fighting the developers, like Enbridge have very deep pockets.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to shrug

said by shrug :

One group pulls out and another pulls in.

*shrug*

There is also an a first nations group pro oil and started their own thing and will grant access across their lands.

Personally I think they should just allow it. Better to have an oil spill there than across Quebec and Ontario.

NIMBY.

lol. I think the opposite. Having it go through BC they risk damaging some pretty sensitive rainforest ecosystems as well as coastal ecosystems.

A land spill could be rather contained (unless it gets into river/lake and spreads, which in BC is probably likely), but an Ocean based spill.

The revenue made from the pipeline (pipeline construction, pipeline maintenance, and operating a port in which to ship the oil) could all be wiped out through one Ocean based spill.

Knowing that everyone messes up in their job sooner or later, one would have to think and accident would eventually happen, especially if its a pretty high rate of tanker traffic.

When one spill can completely wipe out any economic benefit to the province, its hard to justify building it.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses, isn't that the corporate way?



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to shrug

said by shrug :

One group pulls out and another pulls in.

*shrug*

There is also an a first nations group pro oil and started their own thing and will grant access across their lands.

Personally I think they should just allow it. Better to have an oil spill there than across Quebec and Ontario.

NIMBY.

When the land is your patrimony, no.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 edit
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do people care to oppose such a thing in the first place? Accidents are extremely rare.

But the effects of one are pretty catastrophic & long lasting.

Imagine a pipeline which crosses the Fraser River in BC, and it has a rupture near or over the river crossing. All water downstream of the rupture is contaminated - 1 part per billion is enough to make water non-potable. All communities downstream can't use Fraser water for drinking, or even passing through reverse osmosis membranes - oil kills the membranes.

If it happens during the salmon run, the females all die before they can lay eggs - the salmon population is decimated, thousands of people lose their livelihoods immediately, and the price of salmon skyrockets across the country (please Mr Oil Company, us Toronto consumers want compensation too).

Then, as in Alaska in the aftermath of the Exxon Valdez, oil gathers in backwater eddies of the river, under clumps of stone, or wherever it finds an natural gathering place, and clumps together. And for dozens of years this coagulated oil continues to leach slicks into the fresh water, contaminating it.

In the late 1970's, the Amoco Cadiz - a VLCC tanker, went aground off the coast of Brittany, France. This is an area of ocean which has highly active wave action and scour. Yet they're still cleaning up oil off the beaches to this day, nearly 35 years later. Ditto the Exxon Valdez.

Nothing man does is entirely safe. In situations where the 'downstream' effects can be catastrophic to communities, there MUST be hearings and as many safeguards as possible put in-place if a project like this is approved, otherwise it just isn't worth the risk.

And you can bet your last penny that if the shit did hit the fan, the company won't have enough insurance to pay for the cleanup; that the profits the company made have long since been distributed to mostly foreign shareholders; and anything the government does to cleanup the mess will be mostly cosmetic.

Oh, one last thing......BC is a seismic zone too, but it'll probably be some low-bidder steel pipe that fails causing the accident.

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do people care to oppose such a thing in the first place? Accidents are extremely rare.

For me it's that one accident could do damage that far outweighs the long term financial benefits. Then you still have a mess, and its all been for naught.

Honestly if I were in charge in BC I would make an oil pipeline levy/tax. I would calculate the max. estimate of damage from a worst case scenario leak. and add 20% (because every estimate I've ever read underestimates damages). Put all that into an untouchable cleanup fund. Then charge another 10 to 15% on top so the province gets something out of it. If the distribution tax is to high than so be it, no pipeline.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia

The problem is twofold with that thought ( good idea though)
1) I don't trust any government to actually put that money away for such an occasion, one only needs to look at the money squandered in Alberta from royalties.
2) The cost would be passed on to the Asians, who would pass the cost back to us via exports due to higher costs.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to MaynardKrebs

i recommend you don't look at this:

»maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=34.···t=h&z=13

the oil platforms were actually erected to get the oil that was seeping out of the land (onshore and offshore), contaminating the area for tens of thousands of years.

all i'm saying is the doomsday scenarios don't help...i'd rather the oil came to Sarnia and a refinery was set up there to process it...perhaps Ontario Oil (an oil version of the LCBO) could be set up, with profits going to the province.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell



corster
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Gatineau, QC

said by dirtyjeffer:

all i'm saying is the doomsday scenarios don't help...i'd rather the oil came to Sarnia and a refinery was set up there to process it...perhaps Ontario Oil (an oil version of the LCBO) could be set up, with profits going to the province.

*bangs head against wall*

I like the idea of a West -> East pipeline. I think it's long overdue. But i'm fairly convinced that I read that post wrong because I can't believe anybody would advocate giving the LCBO control of Gasoline....


Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2
reply to elwoodblues

said by elwoodblues:

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses, isn't that the corporate way?

Yes it is and our elected politicians abate and abide these corporate crooks.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to corster

said by corster:

*bangs head against wall*

I like the idea of a West -> East pipeline. I think it's long overdue. But i'm fairly convinced that I read that post wrong because I can't believe anybody would advocate giving the LCBO control of Gasoline....

i'm not expecting Venezuela gas prices, but if we're going to pay $1.30/litre for gas, at least our province could get billions in profits to help pay down the debt...everyone knows we need it, especially from the way our government has messed things up the last 8 years.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


corster
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Gatineau, QC

1 recommendation

said by dirtyjeffer:

said by corster:

*bangs head against wall*

I like the idea of a West -> East pipeline. I think it's long overdue. But i'm fairly convinced that I read that post wrong because I can't believe anybody would advocate giving the LCBO control of Gasoline....

i'm not expecting Venezuela gas prices, but if we're going to pay $1.30/litre for gas, at least our province could get billions in profits to help pay down the debt...everyone knows we need it, especially from the way our government has messed things up the last 8 years.

Except if the LCBO ran it, we would be paying $2.60/litre for gas in the name of Social Responsibility


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by corster:

Except if the LCBO ran it, we would be paying $2.60/litre for gas in the name of Social Responsibility

well, they wouldn't have a monopoly, they would have to compete on the open market with other refineries...the pricing would be the same as what we have, we would simply get some of the profits...the oil companies don't seem interested in extra refining capacity, we should do it ourselves.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

It's not so much they're not interested,the environmental hoops they have to jump through are huge.



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by elwoodblues:

It's not so much they're not interested,the environmental hoops they have to jump through are huge.

understandable...and there should be solid reasonable policies in place to protect the environment to minimize the impact should something happen.


shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to zod5000

said by zod5000:

lol. I think the opposite. Having it go through BC they risk damaging some pretty sensitive rainforest ecosystems as well as coastal ecosystems.

This is always the same argument BC'ers have to say. Nothing new here.

It's not like BC isn't heavy into mining, petroleum, fracking, and have literally lakes of waste that are diked up and crumbling and that can go at any time with a minor earthquake and devastate entire area's at any time, *as is*.

It's nice to pretend BC has none of the above. eh?

Sad reality is that all this and more is already there. Now be good Canadians and take Alberta's oil instead of shouting "Not In My Back Yard".

So before any more BC'ers try to say it could do this or that, it's best to know about your own environmental issues and the reality you have now which is a greater danger at this very moment than this plan on paper.

*shrug*

Besides, who are these people to say BC's marine ecosystem, or some forest that can recover, is more worth saving than that of the St. Laurence or the water-table throughout Ontario and Quebec?

NIMBY.

BC=NIMBY tree huggers ignoring their own environmental catastrophes waiting to happen at any time that pale in comparison to this.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do people care to oppose such a thing in the first place? Accidents are extremely rare.

Accidents are rare. But these so-called environmental groups have no issues with corporate terrorism so they could vandalize a pipeline causing catastrophic damage. All it take is one douche-bag to 'prove a point' about the dangers of pipelines by bombing one.

Either way, though, you can't win.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by J E F F:

All it take is one douche-bag to 'prove a point' about the dangers of pipelines by bombing one.

Either way, though, you can't win.

one only needs to look at the Walkerton tragedy as proof of the dangers of someone looking to "prove a point".
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..

said by dirtyjeffer:

said by J E F F:

All it take is one douche-bag to 'prove a point' about the dangers of pipelines by bombing one.

Either way, though, you can't win.

one only needs to look at the Walkerton tragedy as proof of the dangers of someone looking to "prove a point".

the thing those two brothers proved that you could run a town (poorly, but get away with it) with a BAC of 0.24!
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to corster

said by corster:

said by dirtyjeffer:

all i'm saying is the doomsday scenarios don't help...i'd rather the oil came to Sarnia and a refinery was set up there to process it...perhaps Ontario Oil (an oil version of the LCBO) could be set up, with profits going to the province.

*bangs head against wall*

I like the idea of a West -> East pipeline. I think it's long overdue. But i'm fairly convinced that I read that post wrong because I can't believe anybody would advocate giving the LCBO control of Gasoline....

Gasoline & liquor together ..... what could go wrong?
They don't call it 'firewater' for nothing.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to dirtyjeffer

said by dirtyjeffer:

....at least our province could get billions in profits to help pay down the debt...everyone knows we need it, especially from the way our government has messed things up the last 8 years.

You mean since Harris was elected.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to dirtyjeffer

said by dirtyjeffer:

said by corster:

Except if the LCBO ran it, we would be paying $2.60/litre for gas in the name of Social Responsibility

well, they wouldn't have a monopoly, they would have to compete on the open market with other refineries...the pricing would be the same as what we have, we would simply get some of the profits...the oil companies don't seem interested in extra refining capacity, we should do it ourselves.

Part of the problem is that gasoline demand is decreasing as vehicles get better mileage, hence that's PART of the calculus in closing refineries. The other part is to create scarcity of supply so prices go up in the face of declining demand.

I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a Tesla S - I rather like the idea of going nearly 500Km on $6 of electricity vs. nearly $90 in my 2nd choice - a new BMW 5-series.