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Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5

IPTV Possible on USG??

Perhaps somewhat related to (Wan Connection Help), I replaced an actiontech router with my USG100 by programming the appropriate VLAN number into a WAN connection (ONT directly to USG) for a bell aliant fibreOP connection. Telephone is done separately and I do not have any TV subscriptions, strictly internet. Works very well.

(When you order FibreOP internet service DHCP access is added to your account and you are given access to the internet VLAN. This VLAN is number 35. The DHCP access is based on the MAC address of your router. If you hook up a different router on this VLAN with DHCP it will not get an IP address unless it is using the same MAC address as your provided router. You can not have a client identifier set in the DHCP client or you will get no DHCP lease.)

On a hypothetical side, I was wondering if the USG could be programmed to also handle the IPTV side of the house. Thus one needs to understand how that part works............

Let's examine how this works in the real world. When you turn on an IPTV Receiver it sends out a request to get an IP address. The provided router IGNORES this request and instead the request gets forwarded to the IPTV VLAN of Bell Aliant. A server at Bell Aliant provides the receiver with an IP address and also with additional information (where to get firmware, what firmware to get, some other configuration details). This is why you see your IPTV receiver getting a 10.X.X.X address even though your local network might be different. As the receiver contacts various IPTV servers these packets get sent to the router, which forwards them on to the IPTV VLAN and vice versa. The router is essentially a dumb forwarder.

When you tune into a channel the receiver joins a multicast group which is broadcasting the channel. This gets forwarded up the chain so that if equipment in the chain is not yet receiving the channel it shortly will, and if it already is receiving the channel then nothing needs to be done except send it downward.
.


Now thats all greek to me, and I grasp that somehow the USG will have to act as both a DHCP providing router through VLAN 35 but then be a dummy forwarder for IPTV.

Is this even possible?? If so, then the thread can move forward vice disappearing into the abyss of impossible.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
The information you have is not complete, so this is a guesstimate.

What is described is a bridge solution for the IPTV STB, to do that you need to bridge the traffic from the STB through the gateway on L2.

I assume this is achieved with VLANs, the question then is, which VLAN? And is the tagged frame forwarded all the way to the STB or removed when the frame exits (egress) the actiontec going to the STB.

Also is IPTV only available through specific ports on the Actiontec?
Or can you plug a switch into for instance port 2 on your Actiontec and then a PC and a STB to that switch and both works as expected?
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
reply to Anav
IPTV is a system through which television services are delivered using the Internet protocol suite over a packet-switched network such as the Internet, instead of being delivered through traditional terrestrial, satellite signal, and cable television formats.

So find a IPTV service that TRULY delivers IPTV and YOU need not do anything special on your USG 100.because its simply another IP application. Now the problem is that people who own the RIGHTS to the content will not permit IPTV services to be pure IP consequently lots of proprietary CRAP is introduced to spoil the IP delivery of TV consequently its a DEAD END at this time.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business


Brano
I hate Vogons
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join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON
kudos:10
reply to Anav
What Pedro said. I have exactly the same questions.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Anav
Hi JP, the action tech ports can handle both IPTV or internet, it also has cable ports as well as ethernet. Truly multi-functional.

The only source of info I can point to is this...
»digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=134496

Im sure you can make more sense than I but perhaps this quote is helpful..

This is how I replaced their Actiontec router with a Linux router. Many thanks file for all the hints.
modprobe 8021q - module for 802.1Q VLAN networking
ifconfig ethX hw ether 00:00:00:00:00:00 - replace with the MAC address of the Actiontec WAN MAC
ifconfig ethX 192.168.255.2 netmask 255.255.255.240 up - bring up the WAN card
vconfig add ethX 35 - bring up the 35 VLAN on the WAN card
vconfig set_flag ethX.35 1 1 - you seem to need this to get their DHCP server to talk to you.
dhcpcd -d -t 60 -R ethX.35 - daaaaa, acquire an IP address.
I hope that helps a few or can be adapted to other OSs.


Another hopefully useful tidbit.

My architecture looks like this:
ONT -> pfSense box -> Managed switch with VLANs
The pfSense box bridges the 34 VLAN to my own internal IPTV VLAN, and works fine.


In another thread talking about using the asus N56U (with custom firmware)

The internal Broadcom switch is also awesome. While most switch chips allow you to do VLAN tagging the included chip also allows you to do 802.1p tagging, which is required for IPTV service to work. In simple terms this means that your IPTV traffic is switched instead of having to go through the 500MHz core and then sent back out.

Okay this seems to be the clearest answer!!

To both of you -
The requirements for internet are the ability to assign VLAN 35 and to spoof the MAC address.
The requirements for IPTV are the ability to assign VLAN 34, to set the 802.1p priority on packets going to that VLAN to video, and to have bidirectional traffic to the set top boxes.

one moment please: If the switch can do as I mention for IPTV then you can use that to do the IPTV portion and have the internet VLAN just go to dd-wrt.

--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
reply to Anav
You need to bridge VLAN 34 to your IPTV STB.

Try untagged first, if that does not work try with tagged.
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
reply to mozerd
IPTV works just fine, if you use VLAN's etc is up to the Service Provider based on their network design.

And using VLAN is usually good idea, it helps with QoS and simplifies the design if you go with MVR etc.

The encryption is transparent for the network elements, since only the data in the TS payload is encrypted. And its just the STB and CAS that has anything to do with it.
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
I understood VLAN 35 on my WAN 2 for internet but the VLAN (34) we are discussing is not assigned to an IP structure???? Thus not sure how to proceed. The STB goes over this VLAN to pull and get assigned IP addresses.

Assuming I would simply assign another VLAN associated with WAN2. Would it be external or general - and I have to add a policy route and I suppose snat does not apply. Probably get IP automatically as well. Without an STB or tv contract its hard to test LOL. Just like the idea of being able to do it all on the USG.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
reply to Anav
We need to differentiate between Layer 3 and Layer 2 now.

Your internet is L3 traffic that the USG routes/NAT's, but in addition it tags the egress ethernet frames with Q-tag id 35.

But the IPTV, most likely, should not be routed/natted, but just passed through untouched, ie it should be a L2 connection for VLAN 34. I DO NOT KNOW if the USG supports that.
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
Thanks JP, I think youve narrowed it down. There's the rub!!

Speaking of rub.... Anybody watch the Spartacus series. I heard some buzz about it downloaded one episode to take a look and lo and behold I see this servant wench 'rubbing a Womens crotch, and another servant wench giving an oral discussion to the husband, and after they are both warmed up so to speak they go at it. My question, is this gratutious foreplay for series ratings or is this historically accurate. Dont laugh this is a valid historical question. Any scholars reading this??
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment

Kirby Smith

join:2001-01-26
Derry, NH
Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
IIRC, Tacitus, Annals of Imperial Rome, is your go-to source for this sort of question. If he didn't cover it then the TV industry probably extrapolated it. C.f., Augustus Caesar and his swimming pool. Suetonius surviving works would be another source.

The poetry of Catullus may allow insight into a slightly earlier period.

kirby


Anav
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
Thanks Kirby. Your a gentleman and a scholar and there are damned few of us left. (Well lots in this forum anyway).


Anav
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Anav
Talked to tech support who consulted with tier 2 and they saw no way to do this with the USG lineup. So, my next question..... how hard would it be to program into the router. Why not be able to declare a bridged zone?? No IP assigned but one can apply VLAN and Q0S etc...... Obviously default is firewalled from all other lans etc.... Is this viable, and how difficult would it be?

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
Not a very big deal, its just the gui that is hard to make work consistently.

Basically how can they clearly and logically present it the option to the user.

But back to the case in hand, lets see about other possible solutions.

If we can run NAT with port forwarding (for ftp and tftp) on VLAN 34, with IGMP Snooping and DHCP Client for the WAN side and then on the LAN side, DHCP Server that services the STB.

Now if you do not have an STB it probably will not work anyway, since the TV signal is most likely encrypted.
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


Anav
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
Well the problem is that we cannot port forward on vlan 34 because we do not know the IPs. They are assigned to the STB through the bridge at the ISP server. ( I believe when you turn the STB on it searches for the ISP server).

If that is not an issue it might be fun to see what is available on vlan 34. Im also wondering if I can borrow an STB if will be of use. Not sure if the ISP would allow that STB to be accessed from a different location, who knows.

As far as web gui is concerned.
One could call it a IPTV (or more generic)Bridge) Zone or Lan - whichever is a more applicable term. One should be able to ensure its firewalled from other zones, lans. One should be able to assign VLAN identifier to it so that the routing of traffic can find the ISP server etc. Not sure what else would be required. Again setting up a level 2 zone or lan, should not break the programmers back. The trick is this has to go out the same medium (physical WAN connection) as the internet traffic on VLAN 35. I am thinking that is the purpose or at least expected uitlity of using VLANS.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
Technically you could do it, not sure about the USG.

But most likely you should not need a port forwarding, only working ALG's for the NAT.

Now the question is how does it actually get its config.

One way
1. STB boots and asks for an IP
2. Gets IP from DHCP server with options set for where it should download config file and/or firmware using tftp or ftp.
3. Then its ready to go

Another way
1. STB boots and asks for an IP
2. Joins a multicast stream that includes its fw and then checks if it needs to update fw.
3. Then the same for config
4. Then its ready to go
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Dartmouth, NS
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I think your part 2 is probably what happens.

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
said by Anav:

I think your part 2 is probably what happens.

If its #2 and the STB sends IGMP joins, then an IGMP snooping on the USG should be enough to handle it.
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
Rereading from above.....
Let's examine how this works in the real world. When you turn on an IPTV Receiver it sends out a request to get an IP address. The provided router IGNORES this request and instead the request gets forwarded to the IPTV VLAN of Bell Aliant. A server at Bell Aliant provides the receiver with an IP address and also with additional information (where to get firmware, what firmware to get, some other configuration details). This is why you see your IPTV receiver getting a 10.X.X.X address even though your local network might be different. As the receiver contacts various IPTV servers these packets get sent to the router, which forwards them on to the IPTV VLAN and vice versa. The router is essentially a dumb forwarder.

When you tune into a channel the receiver joins a multicast group which is broadcasting the channel. This gets forwarded up the chain so that if equipment in the chain is not yet receiving the channel it shortly will, and if it already is receiving the channel then nothing needs to be done except send it downward.

This is crucial for IPTV since it scales far, there aren't multiple copies of a channel being sent simultaneously in the core infrastructure like a normal UDP stream would be. Multicast is good.
Its a bit of both. The STB when turned on searches for AN IP, gets its IP address assigned, firmware updates etc. When selecting a channel the STB joins a multicast group.

So the challenge is how to setup the USG on VLAN 34 on an L2 type connection or zone. I will call Bell to see if any STB will work at any location or if it is programmed to work only at certain locations.
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

LlamaWorks Equipment

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
The easy solution is to stick a switch between the USG and your ISP link termination unit and setup one port with VLAN35 for the USG and others with VLAN 34 for your STB's.
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Anav
Nice, so a 5 port managed switch?

ONT(modem) to switch on port 1, assign VLAN 34 on ports 1,2-4
for STB hookups and assign VLAN 35 on ports 1,5 for internet.

Hook up port 5 ethernet to USG Wan input?

By the way this is feedback on how the N56U does it which might make sense to you.

I can't speak on the set top box side.

As for the RT-N56U the switch chipset within it can be controlled from inside of Linux, so the custom firmware essentially tells it the VLANs on the WAN side, what to expose to the host, and what other ports belong to. For TV service port 4 is set to be untagged on the TV VLAN, and the WAN port is set to be tagged with 802.1p value set. The switch chipset takes care of the tagging/untagging and switches the packets.


Brano
I hate Vogons
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join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON
kudos:10
If you already have managed switch you can carve out 3 ports from it, no need for dedicated new switch.

Kirby Smith

join:2001-01-26
Derry, NH
Switch port carve-out: What a great idea. Not one I need right now, mind you, but a great idea if I ever need it.

kirby


Brano
I hate Vogons
Premium,MVM
join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Bell Fibe
Well, with VLAN capable switch there are much more options that with a dumb switch.

As an example: At home I have 24 port VLAN capable switch.
I have 2 ports on VLAN1 for my WAN connection
- port 1 WAN in from modem
- port 2 WAN out to router
I have VLAN2 for my home network - multiple ports
I have VLAN3 for my guest network - multiple ports
Why bring WAN to a switch first? In my case for troubleshooting, this way I can mirror the WAN port to any other, put sniffer on it and see what's going on.
This is a pretty basic setup

In Anav's case, very similar setup. Bring the WAN in on one port / VLAN, tag it out for the STB on one port and on different port send it USG.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
Yes but I dont currently have a managed switch so I would need to get one.


Otto58

join:2001-02-26
Germany
reply to Anav
In Germany IGMPv3 should help.

»Re: USGs firmwares


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
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Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Anav
Brano, JPedro, the expert states the following about the switch idea.....

The internet would work but the 802.1p priority value has to be set on any packets going to the TV VLAN, without that the TV part won't work. the switch would have to set it, not many can.


Brano
I hate Vogons
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join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON
kudos:10
Then get a switch that can

Kirby Smith

join:2001-01-26
Derry, NH
Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
reply to Anav
Well, the Cisco 200 series L2 switch (e.g. the SG-200-26 that I use) allows setting QOS (802.1p) to untagged frames as well as passing tagged frames as directed, but as I only just spent 30 seconds reading the intro to that part of the User Guide, one would have to study it in the context of what he needed to be sure it is sufficient. If memory serves, this switch was priced below a USG 50. (And it is rack mountable like the USG series without paying twice the price, unlike certain NAS and UPS one might want.)

I think this series goes down to 8 ports, but this is a dim memory at the moment.

kirby

JPedroT

join:2005-02-18
kudos:1
reply to Anav
To me that sounds just plain old dumb, the 802.1p bits are for priority. So it really should not have any bearing on wether IPTV works or not.
When saying that, of course the network provider might do something funky with frames that does not have the right p-bits set, but then its deliberate.
And who the F trusts QoS settings coming from a device in customers LAN.

Now if they actually mean 802.1q bits ie the switch needs to tag ingress traffic from the STB and untag egress traffic to the STB, then its logical. IE VLAN 35 and VLAN 34, also when you tag with VLAN's usually set the p-bit at the same time...

Any decent managed L2+ switch should be able to do what you need. Even the silly remarking of the p-bits if that is the case.

Should be adequate if I remember correctly

»www.zyxel.com/products_services/···html?t=p
--
"Perl is executable line noise, Python is executable pseudo-code."