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Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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Dartmouth, NS

3 edits

Anav to JPedroT

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to JPedroT

Re: IPTV Possible on USG??

Yes JP, silly but required, apparently the ISP filters out anything with less than 4? Purpose I have no idea.
I just need to find a smallish managed switch that can do the trick ie 5 port would be ideal.
- I looked at the Netgear GS105E but it "honours" .p tagging, it cannot actually tag the data so its the right size, price (when on sale) but cannot actually tag the data with QoS.
- I looked at the DLINK DGS1005D and YEAH it does 802.1p tagging of data packets but tis useless as does not do VLANS.

-The Dlink 8 port DGS 1100-8 looks promising in that it states it will assign prioirity for untagged data, but it only has word settings highest, high, medium, low (which they state is 8, 4, 2, 1 respectively so assuming i am looking for "high")

mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

1 edit

mozerd

MVM

The Netgear GS108T can actually apply tags

$80 from DirectCanada

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
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join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

1 edit

Anav

Premium Member

Thanks Mozerd am just now looking at the 8 port possiblities
Cisco Small Business 200 Series Smart Switch SG200-08 for example seems like a likely candidate as does HP V1900-8G Switch
Also Zyxel GS2200-8
Anav

Anav to mozerd

Premium Member

to mozerd
said by mozerd:

The Netgear GS108T can actually apply tags

$80 from DirectCanada

I read through the user guide, one can set priorities of high normal low and lowest - equates to 8 levels of priority. Problem is nowhere can I find it APPLIES tags. All one seem to do is map ports which is not clear to me as it may just permit traffic of that setting first.
Dont get me wrong, this switch at that price point is fricken amazing I have a quadrillion questions regarding some of the other features I have never heard of. BUT, nothing I read says yup it allows me to tag packets outgoing from a port.
Anav

Anav

Premium Member

I looked at the Direct Canada Site. The picture there is of an old switch but I note it states GS108T-200NAS and it states V2 in the package contents. So I assume the switch would be this one..

»www.netgear.com/business ··· 200.aspx

Now I am curious about its pricing.
newegg reg 129 down to 96
memory express reg 94
ncix reg 94
direct canada reg 81 down to 79.

That is quite a spread.
Best bet looks like price match for ME on DC.

No one seems to carry the dlink DGS-1100-5 or -8 models (yes I found a 5 port jobbie that will do both)
Anav

Anav

Premium Member

okay it looks like my affordable choices are, and they seem like recent switches as well. The dgs-1100-5 seems really new.

GS108T - Netgear around $80 plus tax (ME pm to DC)
DGS-1100-8 Dlink around $75 plus tax (shopbot.ca)
DGS-1100-5 Dlink around $84 plus tax (direct dial)
DGS-1100-5 $80 includes tax shipped from B&H in the US go figure.

User guides...
»www.dlink.com/us/en/supp ··· N_US.pdf

»www.downloads.netgear.co ··· ov10.pdf

If anybody is interested in reading through and comparing the two, would be most appreciated. The netgear seems more feature rich but the dlink seems easier to understand or at least implement.

The fact that mozerd recommended the Netgear leads me to think its a good quality switch (made well) and firmware works as advertised. I am torn though if able to get a 5 port (ie smallest possible) switch.

Brano
I hate Vogons
MVM
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Burlington, ON
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Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO
Ubiquiti NanoBeam M5 16

Brano

MVM

Click for full size
DGS-1100
Here's screenshot from my DGS-1100. If I'm getting this correctly the switch can prioritize by 802.1p tags, but can't actually tag the frames.

Anav, also please consider getting a bigger switch. Once you get use to the concept of VLANs you'll realize the opportunities and having a additional spare ports available is definitely something that you'll appreciate later.

Anav
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Anav

Premium Member

Okay Brano, from the user guide it states (look at the last sentence)............
QoS > 802.1p Default Priority
QoS is an implementation of the IEEE 802.1p standard that allows network administrators to reserve
bandwidth for important functions that require a larger bandwidth or that might have a higher priority, such as
VoIP (voice-over Internet Protocol), web browsing applications, file server applications or video conferencing.
Thus with larger bandwidth, less critical traffic is limited, and therefore excessive bandwidth can be saved.
The following figure displays the status of Quality of Service priority levels of each port, higher priority means
the traffic from this port will be first handled by the switch. For packets that are untagged, the switch will
assign the priority depending on your configuration.

Now, DLink uses words to describe the 802.1p settings. There are not the 8 levels but here is what the manual states that equate to the standard levels.......

When a priority level
has reached its egress weight, the system will process the packets in the next level even if there are
remaining packets. D-Link EasySmart Switch system’s weight of priority levels are: 8 (Highest), 4 (High), 2
(Medium) and 1 (Low) packet. By default, the queuing mechanism is Strict Priority.
QoS

Now this is very similar to the GS108T by netgear they have HIgh, Medium, Low and Lowest. The problem with the netgear it says no where in the manual that it actually tags untagged packets.

Brano
I hate Vogons
MVM
join:2002-06-25
Burlington, ON

Brano

MVM

Assign priority does not necessary mean tag the packet.
I'll try to do some sniffing when I get time.

Anav
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Anav

Premium Member

Good point!
OGalati
join:2005-08-19
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OGalati to Anav

Member

to Anav
Sorry if I didn't understand the thread, but AFAIK QoS and 802.1p tagging is meaningless to solve the Vlan34/35 issue mentioned earlier. What you need is 802.1q tagging. Maybe the switch don't tag packets for 802.1p, but yes do tag for 802.1q purposes.

Regards.
JPedroT
Premium Member
join:2005-02-18

JPedroT

Premium Member

said by OGalati:

Sorry if I didn't understand the thread, but AFAIK QoS and 802.1p tagging is meaningless to solve the Vlan34/35 issue mentioned earlier. What you need is 802.1q tagging. Maybe the switch don't tag packets for 802.1p, but yes do tag for 802.1q purposes.

Regards.

According to sources familiar with the IPTV setup for the ISP that Anav uses, frames with the wrong p-bits set, will get dropped or something similar.

I agree with you, that vlan 34, 802.1q tags are the important part here, but hey, the ISP can build their network just how they want to

mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

mozerd

MVM

Click for full size
said by mozerd:

The Netgear GS108T can actually apply tags

Anav See Profile after defining your vlan's you then work with QoS to prioritize the traffic with a technique called class of service (CoS) which is a 3-bit field called the Priority Code Point (PCP) ... It specifies a priority value of between 0 and 7 inclusive that can be used by QoS disciplines to differentiate traffic -- this technique is commonly referred to as 802.1p --- so in the Netgear GS108T you can set the priority value as defined inn the Manuel -- and partly shown in the graphic above.

The issue is how has YOUR ISP defined that priority value and is that priority value recognizable by the port/vlan it hits -- If the ISP is not using proprietary code then you should be good to go but I HAVE my doubts.

BTW, in clear terms WHAT is your objective? Do you want to be able to stream IPTV to multiple devices inside your home

Anav
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join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

Hi Mozerd, as I stated nowhere does it say it tags 8.02.1p.
(1) Dlink states "ASSIGN" priority
(2) Netgear states "Map" priority.

Unless someone can test, I cannot assume those terms mean tag. Other more expensive switches say tag for example.

Olagati, as JP noted, the ISP required a setting of 4 or higher I believe.

Mozerd no its not some obscure proprietary setting. The Asus N56 Linux code was modified for this requirment its set to tag the packets at level 4 802.1p.

Purpose, academic interest for me, but if feasible I will procure a switch and borrow an STB to play. I have a friend who need to replace their Bell fibreop action tech so I am sorting out the possibilities.

I am also helping a person out in the US on FIOS FTTH with an ONT, an actiontech but there setup is a tad archaic, coax from ONT to STBs and DVRs, ethernet and coax to action tech for internet and the coax for setup guide orderming movies etc. My local friend has ethernet to everything, much cleaner

By the way this fios link may be of interest to some..
»Verizon FiOS FAQ »What are the tradeoffs between the various router configurations (especially options 6-8)

mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
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join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

mozerd

MVM

said by Anav:

Hi Mozerd, as I stated nowhere does it say it tags 8.02.1p.
(1) Dlink states "ASSIGN" priority
(2) Netgear states "Map" priority.

Unless someone can test, I cannot assume those terms mean tag. Other more expensive switches say tag for example.

In Netgear for video you would MAP to the hardware queue "4" or NORMAL so it tags that "queue" and looks for packets to match --- will the Netgear TAG the IP PACKET = NO --- WHY would it? Its a hardware QUEUE on the VLAN.
JPedroT
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join:2005-02-18

JPedroT

Premium Member

The point is that the q and p bits on the ethernet frame need to have specific value to be accepted by the upstream switches. IE Anav needs the frames coming from the STB to be tagged or if it already is tagged then some sort of vlan translation.

So just putting into one of the hardware queues on a switch, will not be enough unless its also tags it with the right bits.

Anav
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Anav

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Thank you JP, exactly. It scares me when you agree with me. I have to pinch myself and ensure someone didnt spike my coffee with mescaline. I am not usually enlightened.

After carefully reviewing the Zyxel GS2200-8, I am starting to believe that managed switches are not capable of actually tagging data packets with 802.1P. It appears, the way I read it, that the zyxel is like the DLINK and Netgear but explains it a bit better.

What I mean is that the Zyxel is able to read an 802.1p tagged packet and it maps ITS OWN EQUIVALENT priority queue according to its table that is mapped one to one to the standard. Thus it respects the standard but applies physically its own internal routing priority.
For data without priority tagged packets, the switch allows you to assign AN EQUIVALENT, zyxel phsyical queuing number, to what it should be in terms of the standard if it had tagged data packets.

In other words it manipulates the data as if it actually had 802.1p packets, to the level the admin desires.

Conclusion, even the GS2200-8 does NOT tag packets. I suspect the same schema for the Dlink and Netgear which talk about assigning and mapping (similar language on the zyxel). The only difference that I see between the zyxel and the other is that they actually break out equivalent mapping 1:1 to the standard wherease the other two lump the standard into groups of two and use generict text names.

Pictures next post........
Anav

Anav

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Click for full size
Click for full size
Click for full size
.....
JPedroT
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JPedroT

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The ZyXEL tags just fine, just like on the USG you got tons of stuff including policy rules and classifiers if you want to get fancy

Anav
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Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

Unfortunately, I dont agree with your assertion based on the language used in the Manual. They clearly IMHO state that they physically apply their own proprietary routing but equivalent to the standard.

The switch is able to read the tagged data packets and then actually applies their own table (and own proprietary physical routing proirity schema) to control the data flow. I repeat it does NOT use the 802.1p tagging to actually do anything (it doesnt use the standard it only reads it). For untagged packets it allows the admin to assign phsyical routing-control via the zyxel priority assignment (which one can equate to 802.1p via the mapping table).

Perhaps your thinking of a different switch, because I dont see any other logical explanation that states differently.
JPedroT
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JPedroT

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I got one under my tv

Chapter 8.7 Port Setup in the UserGuide, here you set the Priority number/tag/bits for all frames that does not have already have a priority tag.

Anav
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Anav

Premium Member

Which Switch and prove it.

Put an untagged packet through the switch assign priority 4 and then unwrap the packet afterwards. Nothing in the manual says it actually tags a data packet.

Show me the quote about it physically tagging the data packet??
I hope your right, really.

mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

2 edits

1 recommendation

mozerd

MVM

said by mozerd:

In Netgear for video you would MAP to the hardware queue "4" or NORMAL so it tags that "queue" and looks for packets to match --- will the Netgear TAG the IP PACKET = NO --- WHY would it? Its a hardware QUEUE on the VLAN.

Apparently I was wrong -- For the Netgear GS108Tv2 and using firmware version 5.x utilizing DiffServ the switch will insert p tags:
Page 287 of the manuel

Marking CoS (802.1p): sets the three-bit priority field in the first/only 802.1p header to a specified value when packets are transmitted for the traffic class. An 802.1p header is inserted if it does not already exist. This is useful for assigning a layer 2 priority level based on a DiffServ forwarding class (i.e., DSCP or IP Precedence value) definition to convey some QoS characteristics to downstream switches which do not routinely look at the DSCP value in the IP header.

So the firmware version is important with this particular version of the GS108Tv2 --- if you're going to buy one of these make sure that its the v2 --- firmware version 5 is readily available in the Netgear Support area.

You can read the Manuel here using firmware v5.x --- page 288 titled DiffServ Example Configuration
JPedroT
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Click for full size
Ze Manual

Anav
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Anav

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Nice find Mozerd, I didnt go so far as to read the diffserv section. I will have a closer boo to see if an be used the way I am thinking.

As for JPed, sorry mate, your at a disadvantage, english not being your native tongue. I already quoted that particular graphic. It clearly states it applies the zyxel proprietary value. It does not tag with the 802.1p standard. Try again.
JPedroT
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JPedroT

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said by Anav:

Nice find Mozerd, I didnt go so far as to read the diffserv section. I will have a closer boo to see if an be used the way I am thinking.

As for JPed, sorry mate, your at a disadvantage, english not being your native tongue. I already quoted that particular graphic. It clearly states it applies the zyxel proprietary value. It does not tag with the 802.1p standard. Try again.

You need to explain that, because nowhere does it say proprietary there. It inserts the priority value that is set in that field.
And then it refers to a table that shows a menu which lets you configure which hardware queue a frame with a certain priority value will be stuffed into.

Anav
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2 edits

Anav

Premium Member

It doesnt say proprietary directly but read it again.

Under prioriity queue assignment
First Para - Defines what IEEE802.1P is. Thats all.
Second para - States the switch has eight physical queues (this is a switch programmed functionality). You can map these switch (AKA PROPRIETARY methodology) physical queues they call them Priority VALUES, to the standard 8 priority levels described in 802.1p.
The switch allows one to assign physical queues-Priority Values that correspond to the 802.1p priority you would like to MIMIC!!
There is no tagging of frames.

Now contrast that with the text in the Netgear manual.....
3. Configure the policy attributes:.
• Mark CoS. Enter the specified Class of Service queue number to mark all packets for the associated traffic stream with the specified class of service value in the priority field of the 802.1p header. If the packet does not already contain this header,
one is inserted. The CoS value is an integer from 0–7.
From the Class of Service field, set the CoS tag value to be reassigned for packets received on the Voice VLAN when Remark CoS is enabled.
Anav

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Anav

Premium Member

In more detail, the netgear BASIC CoS is what all the others are doing........
Basic CoS Configuration
Use the Trust Mode Configuration page to set the class of service trust mode of an interface. Each port in the switch can be configured to trust one of the packet fields (802.1p or IP DSCP), or to not trust any packet’s priority designation (untrusted mode). If the port is set to a trusted mode, it uses a mapping table appropriate for the trusted field being used. This mapping table indicates the CoS queue to which the packet should be forwarded on the appropriate egress port(s). Of course,
the trusted field must exist in the packet for the mapping table to be of any use, so there are default actions performed when this is not the case. These actions involve directing the packet to a specific CoS level configured for the ingress port as a whole, based on the existing port default priority as mapped to a traffic class by the current 802.1p mapping table.

802.1p. The eight priority tags that are specified in IEEE 802.1p are p0 to p7. The QoS setting lets you map each of the eight priority levels to one of four internal hardware priority queues: High, Normal, Low, and Lowest.

So its clear that only in the setting policies for Diffserv in the netgear switch, is one actually permitted to assign and tag 802.1p frames in data packets.
OGalati
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OGalati to Anav

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to Anav
said by Anav:

It doesnt say proprietary directly but read it again.

Under prioriity queue assignment ......

That is a mere general reference to switch features, not an exhaustive explanation.

JPedroT's graphic quotation refers to incoming frames section.

Check chapters 20-21.
»ftp://ftp.zyxel.com/GS2200-8/u ··· 0-8_.pdf

You have there the way to classify traffic and the actions you can take over that classified traffic at the egress time, mainly VLAN tagging and priority tagging.

Regards.