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toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON

[DSL] Dry loop installation: demarc box not connected?

Here's the story:

My friend has ordered TS DSL6, ordered the install for Feb 2, the Bell tech came, installed the demarcation box, but didn't install it to the house lines, so there is no dry loop into the house at all. I tried to open the demarc box, but couldn't open the orange knobs to get to the phone port to even test if the demarc box is working.

I have been told that TS is not responsible for anything past the demarcation box, and that it is the responsibility of the landlord to connect the demarcation box to the apartment. The landlord will not connect the box to the apartment at this point, and my friend is about ready to cancel her account and go to Rogers out of sheer frustration that she has paid for installation and nobody is able to help. Is it common practice for a Bell tech to just put a box on a wall, see if the connection is live and leave without attaching it to anything?

Has anyone had a similar experience and have any advice?

Thanks for the time and any help you might be able to provide.
Ben

*Note: I posted a similar query to the TS direct forum, but I was wondering if anyone might have some insight/similar experiences.


RizzleQ
Cunningham's Law Enthusiast

join:2006-01-12
Windsor, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
There's usually a specific reason for them to do ONLY this... other than just sheer laziness. I can only go off my personal experience and stories I've heard from friends, but the general consensus I get is that Bell techs at least try to connect the wiring to something. In my case they came inside my house and spent 30 minutes wiring things up to a jack so I at least know some of them care to do the job correctly. There's a multitude of things that can go wrong, however. A picture of the inside of the NID (the demarc box) would go a long way in getting some help with this. It's possible the Bell line is just connected to the incorrect pair or something simple like that. Mistakes happen.

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON
Thanks for the reply, Rizzle.

I will ping my friend for a picture, hopefully will get one by tomorrow.

The TS people are saying that I will likely have to find a 3rd party contractor to do the wiring from the demarc box to the house's phone box, as it really does seem like there is one wire going into the demarc, and no wires coming out.

It's incredibly frustrating as one would expect installation costs to include wiring from the demarc to the house. I halfway joked on the phone that it was like being sold a car without tires. I don't think it went over well.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
Under the GAS tariff, Bell's responsibility and obligations do indeed end at the demarc box. Anything beyond that is technically extra.

Sometimes you get a tech that will extend the courtesy of doing a quick check on internal wiring to see if things beyond the demarc are wired properly and sometimes you will get a tech who will stick strictly to his obligations - install demarc, test at demarc, done.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
reply to toothpicvic
I'm not familiar with lease agreements but wouldn't the landlord be responsible for the wiring inside since the OP's friend is renting?


rogersmogers

@start.ca
reply to toothpicvic
said by toothpicvic:

Here's the story:

My friend has ordered TS DSL6, ordered the install for Feb 2, the Bell tech came, installed the demarcation box, but didn't install it to the house lines, so there is no dry loop into the house at all. I tried to open the demarc box, but couldn't open the orange knobs to get to the phone port to even test if the demarc box is working.

What orange knobs?

Any Demarc I have seen has a small screw for the customer side to open and a bolt for the Bell side to open.

Take a picture of said orange knobs.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
said by rogersmogers :

What orange knobs?

Any Demarc I have seen has a small screw for the customer side to open and a bolt for the Bell side to open.

There are two types of modern demarcation modules. One has the traditional screw design with test jack and the other has insulation displacement connectors like this: »csmedia.corning.com/CableSystems···U2_A.jpg

SLAMtech

join:2009-12-03
kudos:1
reply to toothpicvic
Bell is only responsible up to the NID or if no NID then a demarcation jack. You got to contact your third party ISP after that if it is still not working or landlord. It should also be tagged at the NID/demarc with dry loop # or circuit number to be easily identified.

There are a few ISP's I've seen that have there own contracters take it from there and wire up the jacks. ACN or acanac was one of them.


TSI Keith
Premium
join:2012-07-09
kudos:5
reply to toothpicvic
Hello there,

At this point I'd have to agree with the others, if you can get a picture of the demarc that may be helpful for the community to give any advice.

As already mentioned, unfortunately Bell is not responsible past the demarc point. If this is a rental property, and especially if there is no connection at all to the demarc (are there phone jacks in the residence?), I would advise your friend bring this back to the landlord.

Thank you,
Keith
--
TSI Keith (E-Services) - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON

1 edit
reply to rogersmogers
Click for full size
Click for full size
Thanks for your input, everyone. I have attached some pictures of the demarc box.

Apologies for my lack of terminology, but the "orange knobs" that I was referring to was just what InvalidError posted, referring to it as a insulation displacement connector, which I was unable to open to test the jack.

At this point, are the only options to call a 3rd party electrician or to cancel TekSavvy altogether?

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
To access the "test jack", slide the largest orange blob to the (right) side, and then that entire subassembly should pivot open (hinge is visible at right side edge). The "test jack" is underneath it.

The smaller orange things are where your inside wiring should be connected.

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON
Thanks for this, mlord.

I did try moving it, but it seemed stuck, for some reason.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
It's quite FIRM. Because when you move it, it disconnects the inside wiring terminals. I'll see if my neighbour is in -- he's got a pretty similar looking one, and I might get a photo of it in the "open" state to help with understanding it.

5-10mins.


xbell

@cgocable.net
reply to toothpicvic
Here is a pic of one open. I run a firm that wires dry loops to homes and apartments. Most landlords will not pay for this. Some BTS techs will wire what they think will go to the apt and some will not.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

1 edit
reply to mlord
Click for full size
How to open it.
Click for full size
That was easy.
Click for full size
Hookup for house wiring.
Yup, he has the exact same model as the one you posted the photo of. To open it, push very hard to the right on the left edge of the latch, with a lifting force at the same time. It will bend slightly, move right maybe a 1/16", and then the whole thing should pop open.

Once it is open, you can see how the inside wiring is intended to be hooked up.
Photos here (by me) courtesy of my neighbour.

Cheers

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON
Thanks so much for this, mlord, very helpful!

xporterX

join:2010-07-11
Install the inside wire yourself, don't waste time and money with a "firm" like xbell with an xbell van.

xporterX

join:2010-07-11
reply to toothpicvic
Oh, and you might want to call tecksavvy and tell them that the bell tech did not install a ground wire.

MrMazda86

join:2013-01-29
Kitchener, ON
reply to toothpicvic
Just a heads up when it comes to DSL service. The polarity of the lines are a little more important for those services. I also notice in the example that mlord gives compared to the wiring that I see in your box, you have CAT-3 wiring, but the wiring that leads into your house will be the traditional wiring.

To make sure you wire this correctly, you may find it helpful to check out this forum thread to help you with determining what to wire where based on the diagrams.


xbell

@cgocable.net
reply to xporterX
said by xporterX:

Install the inside wire yourself, don't waste time and money with a "firm" like xbell with an xbell van.

I agree, and I have been posting in here for years assisting people in doing their own wiring. It beats paying the BTS monkeys driving vans dressed up as Bell vans and dressed up as real Bell techs.

xporterX

join:2010-07-11
They pay bell not bts. Keep living a dream xbell, oh and nice work on the kjijii posts.

mactalla

join:2008-02-19
kudos:1
reply to MrMazda86
said by MrMazda86:

Just a heads up when it comes to DSL service. The polarity of the lines are a little more important for those services. I also notice in the example that mlord gives compared to the wiring that I see in your box, you have CAT-3 wiring, but the wiring that leads into your house will be the traditional wiring.

But don't let that scare the OP from trying it himself (should he be so inclined). I'll let someone here more knowledgeable confirm, but from what I understood from a Telus tech, the demarcs have safeties built in so if you have faulty inside wiring it just severs the connection until the fault is removed (think auto-resetting circuit breaker). So if you do get it wrong sure it won't work, but you needn't fear damaging anything. With only 2 choices it's pretty easy to get it right on the 2nd try!

Surely Bell is using similar equipment, right?

MrMazda86

join:2013-01-29
Kitchener, ON
Yes... This is correct... If you accidentally cross the polarities, it will *NOT* damage any equipment or cause any effects that cannot be corrected easily. In particular, see the reference to the colour codes that I've shown in the little diagrams.

It's actually quite simple when it comes down to it. Electrically speaking, crossing the polarity isn't the end of the world. Also, if you're worried about getting "zapped" by the lines when you're working on them from inside the house, there's a little cheater tool that works on any Bell line from any area code. The two key numbers are:

519-958-2580 -- Telephone # Check
519-958-1166 -- Voltage Drop

These are numbers that Bell does NOT want their customers to have. You can substitute the area code within Ontario or Québec other than 807, 226, 647, 289, and the "new" area codes for larger metropolitan areas like Montréal. That being said though, you can still use the original code, so if for example the phone number assigned to the dry "Dry Gas" line is a 647 area code, you can use 416 instead.

In particular the Voltage Drop number is the key because this will cut the electrical voltage on the line for 3 or 5 minutes, which gives you as the "tech" the time to run certain line tests, or otherwise make some wiring changes easier.

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON
reply to xporterX
Thanks for the suggestion, I forwarded the picture to TS in the Direct forum, and they said it seems fine to them.

Looks like at this point my friend is just going to cancel her service, and I have to say I can't blame her, as there seems to be far to many hoops to jump through to simply get the install properly. To the demarc box or not, the install/activation should ensure that it's going to the place it's supposed to.

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON
reply to MrMazda86
Thanks for this info, MrMazda. Helpful stuff, and I'm sure that that someone will be able to use it.

Since I'm really not suited to be climbing 20 feet to get to the house's exterior phone box and connect it to the demarc box, and my friend doesn't want to pay an electrician (on general principle)to do part of the installation that should have been done in the first, she's most likely just going to cancel the DSL line with TS.

MrMazda86

join:2013-01-29
Kitchener, ON
reply to mactalla
Yes... This is correct... If you accidentally cross the polarities, it will *NOT* damage any equipment or cause any effects that cannot be corrected easily. In particular, see the reference to the colour codes that I've shown in the little diagrams.

It's actually quite simple when it comes down to it. Electrically speaking, crossing the polarity isn't the end of the world. Also, if you're worried about getting "zapped" by the lines when you're working on them from inside the house, there's a little cheater tool that works on any Bell line from any area code. The two key numbers are:

519-958-2580 -- Telephone # Check
519-958-1166 -- Voltage Drop

These are numbers that Bell does NOT want their customers to have. You can substitute the area code within Ontario or Québec other than 807, 226, 647, 289, and the "new" area codes for larger metropolitan areas like Montréal. That being said though, you can still use the original code, so if for example the phone number assigned to the dry "Dry Gas" line is a 647 area code, you can use 416 instead.

In particular the Voltage Drop number is the key because this will cut the electrical voltage on the line for 3 or 5 minutes, which gives you as the "tech" the time to run certain line tests, or otherwise make some wiring changes easier.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to toothpicvic
said by toothpicvic:

Since I'm really not suited to be climbing 20 feet to get to the house's exterior phone box and connect it to the demarc box, and my friend doesn't want to pay an electrician (on general principle)to do part of the installation that should have been done in the first, she's most likely just going to cancel the DSL line with TS.

Well, if there's already an exterior "phone box" with access to the inside wiring, then this is, like, a 20-minute job to complete the connections. Shame to give up on it when it's all so close to completion.

toothpicvic

join:2012-07-19
Toronto, ON
edit: in response to mlord:

I completely agree, but I also understand the want to not have to deal with a situation that is actually making it more difficult to essentially start paying monthly fees. If it's this hard to start out and everything is so awkward, who would want to continue with it?

As dumb city folk, we just don't have access to 20ft ladders, I'm not even sure if the landlor does either.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
Drop a wire out a window down to the demarc and hook it up, or drill through the window frame and push the wire out that way (that's what a lot of Bell installers do).


TSI Martin
Premium
join:2006-02-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:33
reply to MrMazda86
said by MrMazda86:

519-958-1166

Never heard of this one before...
Good to know in certain situations.
--
TSI Martin (Escalations / E-Services) - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »»TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
Follow us on Twitter : @TekSavvyCSR ; @TekSavvyNetwork