dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
uniqs
9
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to Exodus

Member

to Exodus

Re: Ready to dump Windows, is Mac or Linux better for me?

said by Exodus:

If you're willing to pay through the nose for a minimal maintenance computer, go with the Mac. You'll buy your hardware and your software, but you won't have to screw with it.

Love how people say that yet forget things like this exist:

»www.engadget.com/2013/02 ··· -and-up/

Yes, better resolution than the 13" MBP but the MBP gets better battery life.

Or all these models:

»www.engadget.com/2012/10 ··· -review/
»www.engadget.com/2012/11 ··· -review/
»www.engadget.com/2013/01 ··· -review/

The Mac "tax" is not that bad at all. And like you said it will (for the most part) be reliable.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

The mac tax is exactly what it is.

I can get a 21.5" iMac with a 2.5ghz i5 for $1,299, or I can put together the same system for $600~ or less. When it gets out of date, I can upgrade a single component in two years for a few bucks and be back in business.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05

Member

said by Exodus:

The mac tax is exactly what it is.

I can get a 21.5" iMac with a 2.5ghz i5 for $1,299, or I can put together the same system for $600~ or less. When it gets out of date, I can upgrade a single component in two years for a few bucks and be back in business.

Not with good quality components and with similar build quality:

»www.zdnet.com/how-to-bui ··· 0/#photo

Total $1,081. And you get to build it, warranty it, etc.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

Site ate my post. Trying again.

If you were to follow ZD Net, you'd pay $1,081, which is still over $200 cheaper than what Apple is asking for. If you wanted more control over your components with warranty and high end components, we regularly build out components for people based on their needs and come in well below the $1000 mark. Most people walk away in the $600-800 range with quality components that perform much better than what you'll buy at Apple.

Also, sup Carlisle.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

1 recommendation

itguy05

Member

I get you believe in (or sell) the Build your own PC stuff. I was there, sold the systems, have the scars to prove it. I've since moved on as margins were too low, people expected the world and Windows was a PITA to deal with. In the end it was easier to buy from my distributor, let them warranty it and just fix it.

The average person will not DIY rather go out and buy whatever they see at the stores. The PC enthusiast will go to Mom & Pop stores or Newegg it. Most likely none of the real cheap parts cobbled together will outperform a Mac. Why? There are differences in parts and that's where the experience of the integrator comes in. History is littered with "special" stuff for the OEM and retail markets and even special stuff for different OEM's.

The point is for $200 more you get a fully tested system that will outperform others in its price range. Apple's systems generally benchmark near the top when outfitted with Windows. You will not have to worry about dealing with component failures, RMA's and such.

I'd rather pay the $200 and not have to deal with it. My time is worth more than $200 to build a system, install an OS, etc. Not to mention my preference for a laptop,

Different strokes for different folks.
quote:
Also, sup Carlisle.
'sup. You from Central PA too?
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO

me1212 to itguy05

Member

to itguy05
But macs don't exactly use good quality components(broadcom for instance), not to mention the imac uses laptop parts.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

1 recommendation

Exodus to itguy05

Premium Member

to itguy05
I do not sell systems. I've never sold systems. I've assembled hundreds and I've put all of mine together since I was 12 back in the early 90's.

We're in a position where we're giving advice to people who are already technically proficient enough to get here. The DIY PC assembly is easier than it ever was. There's no jumpers to screw around with. There's no voltage settings to screw with. Everything is color coated and everything plugs in one way and is blatantly obvious and labeled. You only screw around with that stuff if you want to and that's if you're beyond the hobbyist level.

In another forum on the same site, we regularly assist people with finding a series of components that will help them get the computer they want. We're talking about gamers here, who have steeper requirements. The big expense in these systems? The video card. Typically, you're going to need the PSU to back it up as well.

If we're giving advice on how to assemble solid computers for people that aren't gamers, like the OP, the price goes from $1299 down to about $500 for the same hardware. We're not talking about junk hardware either. We're talking about suggesting only quality hardware that is thoroughly tested and reviewed by independent sources (like Tom's Hardware) and purchased from reputable sites with good prices and good return/warranty policies (like NewEgg).

The $200 difference is for a pre-built system based off a ZD Net recommendation that appears to be video-only, so I can't even compare the hardware specs to see what's different.

The point I'm trying to reinforce is that the Mac Tax is very real and very expensive. You have to find high-end OEM builds to compare to low-end Apple builds with price. If someone's asking between Windows, Mac, and Linux, it means they already know what Linux is and they're competent enough to tackle a new build.

I understand the appeal of an Apple. I understand why people want their products, but I wanted to clear up the myth that the Mac Tax was minimal, as it is not.

I live in Mechanicsburg, so a few minutes away at most.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to me1212

Member

to me1212
said by me1212:

But macs don't exactly use good quality components(broadcom for instance), not to mention the imac uses laptop parts.

Really? I've got hundreds of servers I manage here with Broadcomm NIC's in them. These are IBM servers, not some whitebox company either.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

LOL IBM Servers.

I'm an AIX 7 certified administrator. My uncle is the local CE for IBM and we've had lengthy conversations about IBM hardware quality. My job is to work on this stuff on a daily basis.

The hardware fails just like any other hardware. There are defective components that get replaced with defective components just like any other hardware.

I'd think that perhaps we could be working in the same place, but I doubt it since you hold IBM servers with high regard.
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO

me1212 to itguy05

Member

to itguy05
IBM isn't exactly cream of the crop.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to Exodus

Member

to Exodus
I get helping people build them. I got from the OP that he was looking for something he can buy in a store rather than DIY.

I did the DIY route before I got my first Mac. Even choosing "quality stuff" there was always some little nagging issue. If you ended up with DOA or a bum component 6 months later you were SOL until your RMA was processed. Not so with a packaged computer. Heck, when my Macbook's Hard Drive died in 2008 I was in and out of the Apple store with a whole new computer in 30 minutes.
quote:
The point I'm trying to reinforce is that the Mac Tax is very real and very expensive. You have to find high-end OEM builds to compare to low-end Apple builds with price.
I get that but Apple's low end stuff is generally on par with mid to high end PC stuff. Look at Ultrabooks - something Apple pioneered. And generally they are all priced around Apple's prices. Look at that Dell I linked - it's priced the same as a Macbook Pro but the MBP has better battery life.

Decent AIO's are also around the same price as an iMac.

IMHO, the tax argument only comes into play when you go low end PC to Apple's low end. And then you are giving up much to go low end (like build quality, speed, battery life, weight, etc).

I sampled the Low End Netbook market with an Acer from BJ's. Seemed good on paper, 250GB HD, dual core AMD CPU, 2GB, high resolution screen, etc. The thing is a dog in Windows and Linux. The display is subpar. But it was $299.

I think even the PC industry has realized the race to the bottom hurts more than it helps. I believe you are seeing prices creep up there as vendors realize they have to actually make money rather than build cheap junk.

It is an interesting discussion and in the end it's up to the user to decide what they want. Do they want something a tad more expensive that will be like the TV where it just works? Or do they want to tinker? Both options appeal to different people.
quote:
I live in Mechanicsburg, so a few minutes away at most.
Small world - we used to be in Camp Hill but ended up in Carlisle.
itguy05

itguy05 to Exodus

Member

to Exodus
said by Exodus:

LOL IBM Servers.

I'm an AIX 7 certified administrator. My uncle is the local CE for IBM and we've had lengthy conversations about IBM hardware quality. My job is to work on this stuff on a daily basis.

The hardware fails just like any other hardware. There are defective components that get replaced with defective components just like any other hardware.

I'd think that perhaps we could be working in the same place, but I doubt it since you hold IBM servers with high regard.

Yeah - I've noticed the quality declining in recent years. It's not what it used to be. We're exploring HP servers as a bunch of the guys have used them and like them. I've got no care either way as long as we don't go with Dell Junk.

The only thing I was trying to point out is that Broadcom is one of the top NIC vendors. I doubt IBM would be using them in their servers for years if they were junk. But then again I could be wrong. I think HP uses them too.
itguy05

itguy05 to me1212

Member

to me1212
said by me1212:

IBM isn't exactly cream of the crop.

Then what is?

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus to itguy05

Premium Member

to itguy05
What are you running on your IBM systems? Are you using P series hardware? I series?

In our world, we deal with failing hardware on a regular basis. The important thing is that we have multiple layers of redundancy, so hardware swaps become a normal and routine thing, but downtime is not. Our AIX servers have redundant NICs, redundant power supplies in the frames and there are multiple hardware drawers. Our Linux systems run in a VMware environment where our guys have redundancy set up so there isn't any failure.

The storage has multiple disk paths and multiple HBAs for redundancy. Hardware gets replaced and we never really notice one vendor standing out over another. We use a plethora of vendors for a ton of customers.
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO

me1212 to itguy05

Member

to itguy05
Depends on what you are using it for. Laptop, desktop, server, tablet.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus to itguy05

Premium Member

to itguy05
said by itguy05:

said by me1212:

IBM isn't exactly cream of the crop.

Then what is?

What are you asking about? Blades? Frames? Storage? Operating Systems? Networking Equipment?

Multiple vendors could make a single solution. You could be running Power Linux on an IBM Frame, using Cisco Networking equipment on EMC storage.

It's a difficult question to answer.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to Exodus

Member

to Exodus
said by Exodus:

What are you running on your IBM systems? Are you using P series hardware? I series?

All of the Above + Xseries. I was/am strictly talking X86 server hardware. The others have their respective admins.

All systems are quite redundant.

But I'd rather be in the business of admining my Linux boxes rather than swapping hardware. In a proper infrastructure one server going down won't have an impact.

In all fairness, I think we're drifting here. Doubtful the OP is buying a server.

Exodus
Your Daddy
Premium Member
join:2001-11-26
Earth

Exodus

Premium Member

If we keep this up, he'll be getting his own XIV storage array and a P770 running his own LPARs. It's a little higher than his current budget, by a few hundred thousand, but he'll be able to have the hardware to run his own bank, stock exchange, corporation, or government agency.