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coxta
Ultramundane
Premium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA

renouncing a succession from an estate

Now that I've got your attention with that catchy title, I will give you the rest of the story.

I have a friend who lives in that Napoleonic law province, Quebec. The person with the estate, which is of zero value, has extensive government debts. Now the heirs/successors don't want anything to do with the estate because of the outstanding debt and so they will renounce the succession (that means I don't want anything to do with the estate). However, it seems that you may have to publish this renunciation and that requires hiring a notary to file a renunciation or a judicial declaration. I'm sure there there are plenty of people out there who can't afford to hire a notary/attorney and don't want to get stuck with the estates debts.

Can you file any of these documents without paying for the attorney or do you have to file this at all? Has anyone had any experience with this problem?

Thanks in advance.
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate


corster
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Gatineau, QC
This seems to cover it fairly well:

»www4.gouv.qc.ca/EN/Portail/Citoy···on.aspx#

You will likely need to find a Notary or Lawyer in Quebec to take care of it. I'd imagine that it's fairly routine for them.


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
Yeah it seems straight-forward, the notary can properly witness your oath which absolves you from inheriting the debt.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to coxta
Is this something that's Quebec specific? It was always my understanding that if the estate can't pay for debts they can't go after anyone else and that it's too bad so sad for the people who are owed money.

dragonfly5

join:2012-09-04
reply to coxta
You can't inherit debt unless you cosigned for it. Period.

That being said, you can inherit the estate as a burden to deal with. I'm not sure if a renunciation would obviate you from that responsibility or not.


koira
Keep Fighting Michael
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Reviews:
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1 edit
reply to coxta
Not sure about PQ but I had looked into filing some related to an estate here. I found I could file it on my own but decided to engage a lawyer to avoid potential repercussions. It shouldn't cost too much to use a lawyer for your friends needs.
I suppose part of it you would have to be positive the last will tied to the estate is completed legal process and closed out with the province.


coxta
Ultramundane
Premium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA
reply to corster
said by corster:

This seems to cover it fairly well:

»www4.gouv.qc.ca/EN/Portail/Citoy···on.aspx#

You will likely need to find a Notary or Lawyer in Quebec to take care of it. I'd imagine that it's fairly routine for them.

I've read this and many other passages before. I don't think it is all that clear.

My friend checked into a notary: $800 for the notary per family member. I think a judicial declaration is an option (sworn statement), but it gives no detail about how this should be handled.

I understand this is Quebec, but what do you do if you don't have funds for a notary? Are you then stuck with paying the debt?
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?


coxta
Ultramundane
Premium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA
said by Gone:

I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?

I'm sorry, I didn't read your comment properly. Apparently, if you do not renounce the succession, then you accept the succession de facto. At that time you become responsible for the debts.

"If there is no notarial instrument indicating that a successor has refused to accept the succession, the successor is considered to have accepted it. "

So I ask again, is Quebec so screwed up that they would do that to someone who couldn't afford a notary? The estate in question has 6 children by two families, plus two surviving siblings and several others who would be considered in the line of succession. The debt is several hundred thousand dollars.

»www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/english/p···ccepting
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate


hm

@videotron.ca
I've seen a family not wanting to claim a body before. Something about if one of the siblings claims the body then they assume the debt.

Wish I recalled how they got out of it and then finally claimed the body. Was too long ago. But it was pretty sad to see 3 kids fighting and not wanting to claim the body of their mother.

So yeah i've seen this before here, but don't recall the ins and outs of it. I think it was a funeral home who helped this family out w/ all the info.

So as far as I know, this type of thing should have been taken care of at time of death w/ help from someone at the hospital or funeral home. Surely one of them can call the gov and ask?


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
reply to coxta
said by coxta:

I understand this is Quebec, but what do you do if you don't have funds for a notary? Are you then stuck with paying the debt?

Legal Aid
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?

As usual, La Belle Provience has their own ideas... Here's a clip from the Quebec website:
quote:
The heirs are liable for the deceased's debts only up to the value of the property they receive from the succession, but if they exempt the liquidator from making an inventory, they are considered to have accepted the succession and are personally liable for all of the succession's debts, even if the debts exceed the value of the property they receive.
quote:
The succession is not solvent

If the property is insufficient to cover all the debts and the legacies by particular title, the liquidator must act with prudence: the liquidator must draw up a complete statement of the debts and the legacies by particular title and then make a payment proposal, which must be sent to the interested parties and be approved by the court. Before making a payment proposal, the liquidator should seek legal advice to avoid mistakes.

The payment proposal must be drafted according to certain rules: the preferred creditors (those whose claims relate to legal costs, movable property, tax laws, or property taxes) and the hypothecary creditors, according to their rank, are paid first; then the other creditors are paid, on a pro rata basis if they cannot be paid in full; next, the support creditors are paid, on a pro rata basis if they cannot be paid in full; and any legatees by particular title are paid last.

If the property is insufficient to pay all the legatees by particular title, the liquidator must follow other rules.

A liquidator may negotiate with the creditors to have them voluntarily reduce their claim in order to satisfy as many of them as possible. In doing so, the liquidator must explain the situation fully to the creditors, disclose all relevant facts to them and obtain their written consent.
So, as long as an acceptable inventory is done, the heir's aren't responsible for debts beyond the value of what they inherit... HOWEVER - if the inventory isn't done, or isn't accepted, the heir could be on the hook for a lot more...

I could see situations where just not being involved in the mess could be the easy way out...

OP - if the estate is worth less then the debts, I'd say the money for the notary, and just not getting involved, is probably the easy way out... Just my opinion.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to coxta
said by coxta:

said by Gone:

I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?

I'm sorry, I didn't read your comment properly. Apparently, if you do not renounce the succession, then you accept the succession de facto. At that time you become responsible for the debts.

"If there is no notarial instrument indicating that a successor has refused to accept the succession, the successor is considered to have accepted it. "

So I ask again, is Quebec so screwed up that they would do that to someone who couldn't afford a notary? The estate in question has 6 children by two families, plus two surviving siblings and several others who would be considered in the line of succession. The debt is several hundred thousand dollars.

»www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/english/p···ccepting

You do need a lawyer or notary in Quebec to guide you in this. This is not something most people deal with on a regular basis. Estate law is complex enough and even more complex in Quebec. That being said, the advice of a notary in Quebec in such matters is not expensive. Even Canadian lawyers are cheap by US standards. And no, their system is not "screwed up". Just different. Just like Canada.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to I_H8_Spam
said by I_H8_Spam:

said by coxta:

I understand this is Quebec, but what do you do if you don't have funds for a notary? Are you then stuck with paying the debt?

Legal Aid

Legal Aid does not do matters involving estates.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to coxta
Here are a few sections of the Code Civil that relate to your question:

632. A successor has six months from the day his right arises to deliberate and exercise his option. The period is extended of right by as many days as necessary to afford him 60 days from closure of the inventory.

During the period for deliberation, no judgment may be rendered against the successor as an heir unless he has already accepted the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 632.

633. If the successor aware of his heirship does not renounce within the period for deliberation, he is presumed to have accepted unless the period has been extended by the court. If a successor is unaware of his heirship, he may be constrained to exercise his option within the time determined by the court.

If a successor does not exercise his option within the time determined by the court, he is presumed to have renounced.
1991, c. 64, a. 633.

634. If a successor renounces within the period for deliberation fixed in article 632, the lawful expenses incurred to that time are borne by the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 634.

646. Renunciation is express. It may also result from the law.

Express renunciation is made by notarial act en minute or by a judicial declaration which is recorded.
1991, c. 64, a. 646.

Now I'm not sure if the cost of declaring the renunciation is included in the cost described in article 634 but it's worth looking into. If that's the case, that means the succession would pay for your friends renunciation.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by IamGimli:

Here are a few sections of the Code Civil that relate to your question:

632. A successor has six months from the day his right arises to deliberate and exercise his option. The period is extended of right by as many days as necessary to afford him 60 days from closure of the inventory.

During the period for deliberation, no judgment may be rendered against the successor as an heir unless he has already accepted the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 632.

633. If the successor aware of his heirship does not renounce within the period for deliberation, he is presumed to have accepted unless the period has been extended by the court. If a successor is unaware of his heirship, he may be constrained to exercise his option within the time determined by the court.

If a successor does not exercise his option within the time determined by the court, he is presumed to have renounced.
1991, c. 64, a. 633.

634. If a successor renounces within the period for deliberation fixed in article 632, the lawful expenses incurred to that time are borne by the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 634.

646. Renunciation is express. It may also result from the law.

Express renunciation is made by notarial act en minute or by a judicial declaration which is recorded.
1991, c. 64, a. 646.

Now I'm not sure if the cost of declaring the renunciation is included in the cost described in article 634 but it's worth looking into. If that's the case, that means the succession would pay for your friends renunciation.


blah no one cares about legaleze with these things.
They can just call the gov, 1 877 644-4545, and ask.

Funeral homes and hospitals know all the ins and outs and have forms to help people out. If they asked...


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to coxta
said by coxta:

My friend checked into a notary: $800 for the notary per family member.

Your friend is either playing you, or you mis-understood. Been through this once before (as stated way too long ago to recall much of it), but it's not 800$/person.

Notary will have standard forms to renounce, people sign it. A group thing.

balur

join:2010-04-28
kudos:1
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?

A few years back when my Grandmother died she had a somewhat substantial debt on her Canadian Tire credit card.

Canadian Tire upon finding this out, contacted my dad and told him that he owed them the money.

He wasn't exactly nice to the person on the phone, and pretty much told them to leave him alone, and that they were idiots for giving a credit card to an elderly woman who did not have an income beyond what came from the government. They never contacted us again.

Though this was not in Quebec.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
They can try, but they have no legal legs to stand on.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
said by Gone:

They can try, but they have no legal legs to stand on.

Yup. All you have to do as Executor is to say "I am the Executor. File a claim against the estate. Otherwise, go away."
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


coxta
Ultramundane
Premium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA
reply to coxta
Well, if it's cheaper than the U.S., then I wonder why the notary quoted $800 - I guess just an ambitous guy.

Good point about nursing home and funeral home knowing the ins and outs. I will pass that on.

As far as having the estate pay the costs, there is no money in the estate.

I find this to be completely confusing:

633. If the successor aware of his heirship does not renounce within the period for deliberation, he is presumed to have accepted unless the period has been extended by the court. If a successor is unaware of his heirship, he may be constrained to exercise his option within the time determined by the court.

If a successor does not exercise his option within the time determined by the court, he is presumed to have renounced.
1991, c. 64, a. 633.

From what I read it says if you don't renounce, the you accept the the succession and then then if they don't exercise this option they have presumed to renounce.

And no, it's not Canada, it's Quebec. Laws in Quebec are extended from French law which is Napoleanic law. Canadian law is English law.

Thanks for the tips, all.
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
said by coxta:

And no, it's not Canada, it's Quebec. Laws in Quebec are extended from French law which is Napoleanic law. Canadian law is English law.

Um... last time I checked, Quebec was still part of Canada. It has different laws. Big deal. Canadian law is Canadian law. Parts of it are descended from English Common Law and parts of it from Scottish law, which also devolves from French law, believe it or not.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by DKS:

parts of it from Scottish law, which also devolves from French law, believe it or not.

Hah, not a lot of people know that.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
said by Gone:

said by DKS:

parts of it from Scottish law, which also devolves from French law, believe it or not.

Hah, not a lot of people know that.

Just read any biography of any of the Scots Reformers or even better, "How the Scots Invented The World". All there.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Yeah, the UK has an even more elaborate hybrid system than our own.

markf

join:2008-01-24
Burlington, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to hm
said by hm :

I've seen a family not wanting to claim a body before. Something about if one of the siblings claims the body then they assume the debt.

Wish I recalled how they got out of it and then finally claimed the body. Was too long ago. But it was pretty sad to see 3 kids fighting and not wanting to claim the body of their mother.

So yeah i've seen this before here, but don't recall the ins and outs of it. I think it was a funeral home who helped this family out w/ all the info.

So as far as I know, this type of thing should have been taken care of at time of death w/ help from someone at the hospital or funeral home. Surely one of them can call the gov and ask?

If you claim the body and sign for the funeral home, that falls outside of the estate and the person who signs the paper owes the funeral home that money, at least in Ontario.

Beyond that, it is cheaper to get a lawyer to do things right upfront (even at $1000), than to later find out and have to fight things at a much greater cost. I don't know how Quebec law works, but if there is nothing in the estate then the Executor is not responsible for the debts personally (unless they wasted what little there was in that kind of estate) at least in Ontario.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to coxta
said by coxta:

From what I read it says if you don't renounce, the you accept the the succession and then then if they don't exercise this option they have presumed to renounce.

If you KNOW about the estate and you don't renounce properly and in time, then you are considered to have accepted the succession, including it's debts.

If you DIDN'T KNOW about the succession, a court may request you to exercise your option to renounce (for example, on demand from a creditor who wants you to pay the deceased debt) but, in that case, if you do not exercise the option you're assumed to have renounced it.

said by DKS:

Um... last time I checked, Quebec was still part of Canada. It has different laws. Big deal. Canadian law is Canadian law. Parts of it are descended from English Common Law and parts of it from Scottish law, which also devolves from French law, believe it or not.

Except for the fact that estate laws are not Canadian, they're provincial. Whether Québec is part of Canada or not is irrelevant for the topic at hand.

The only way someone who accepts a succession in Québec may not have to pay a deceased debts is if a notarized inventory of the estate is done and 100% of it goes to the creditors. Any remaining debt after that is null and void. If no notarized inventory of the estate is done then the succession DOES become responsible of all the deceased debts.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
said by IamGimli:

Except for the fact that estate laws are not Canadian, they're provincial. Whether Québec is part of Canada or not is irrelevant for the topic at hand.

The comment was about law in general in Canada. We have a pastiche of laws and traditions, both Federal and Provincial.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
said by DKS:

said by IamGimli:

Except for the fact that estate laws are not Canadian, they're provincial. Whether Québec is part of Canada or not is irrelevant for the topic at hand.

The comment was about law in general in Canada. We have a pastiche of laws and traditions, both Federal and Provincial.

but quebec civil law is a completely different animal, we have the civil code. Its one of the reasons lawyers and notaries dont have overlapping responsabilities. Lawyers cant settle and estate, notaries do. As well due to the civil code we are the only provice not recognizing common law marriages.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by telco_mtl:

we are the only provice not recognizing common law marriages.

Isn't it the other way around? What would be a common-law marriage and a legal marriage are treated the same way in Quebec? I heard something about how the majority of common-law marriages are actually in Quebec for this reason or something or other.