 coxtaUltramundanePremium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA | renouncing a succession from an estate Now that I've got your attention with that catchy title, I will give you the rest of the story.
I have a friend who lives in that Napoleonic law province, Quebec. The person with the estate, which is of zero value, has extensive government debts. Now the heirs/successors don't want anything to do with the estate because of the outstanding debt and so they will renounce the succession (that means I don't want anything to do with the estate). However, it seems that you may have to publish this renunciation and that requires hiring a notary to file a renunciation or a judicial declaration. I'm sure there there are plenty of people out there who can't afford to hire a notary/attorney and don't want to get stuck with the estates debts.
Can you file any of these documents without paying for the attorney or do you have to file this at all? Has anyone had any experience with this problem?
Thanks in advance.
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate |
|
 corsterPremium
join:2002-02-23
Gatineau, QC
 ·TekSavvy Cable
| This seems to cover it fairly well:
»www4.gouv.qc.ca/EN/Portail/Citoy···on.aspx#
You will likely need to find a Notary or Lawyer in Quebec to take care of it. I'd imagine that it's fairly routine for them. |
|
| Yeah it seems straight-forward, the notary can properly witness your oath which absolves you from inheriting the debt. |
|
 GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3 | reply to coxta
Is this something that's Quebec specific? It was always my understanding that if the estate can't pay for debts they can't go after anyone else and that it's too bad so sad for the people who are owed money. |
|
| reply to coxta
You can't inherit debt unless you cosigned for it. Period.
That being said, you can inherit the estate as a burden to deal with. I'm not sure if a renunciation would obviate you from that responsibility or not. |
|
1 edit | reply to coxta
Not sure about PQ but I had looked into filing some related to an estate here. I found I could file it on my own but decided to engage a lawyer to avoid potential repercussions. It shouldn't cost too much to use a lawyer for your friends needs.
I suppose part of it you would have to be positive the last will tied to the estate is completed legal process and closed out with the province. |
|
coxtaUltramundanePremium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA | reply to corster
I've read this and many other passages before. I don't think it is all that clear.
My friend checked into a notary: $800 for the notary per family member. I think a judicial declaration is an option (sworn statement), but it gives no detail about how this should be handled.
I understand this is Quebec, but what do you do if you don't have funds for a notary? Are you then stuck with paying the debt?
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate |
|
GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3 | I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt? |
|
coxtaUltramundanePremium
join:2000-07-15
LALALALALALA | said by Gone:I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?
I'm sorry, I didn't read your comment properly. Apparently, if you do not renounce the succession, then you accept the succession de facto. At that time you become responsible for the debts.
"If there is no notarial instrument indicating that a successor has refused to accept the succession, the successor is considered to have accepted it. "
So I ask again, is Quebec so screwed up that they would do that to someone who couldn't afford a notary? The estate in question has 6 children by two families, plus two surviving siblings and several others who would be considered in the line of succession. The debt is several hundred thousand dollars.
»www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/english/p···ccepting
--
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate |
|
 hm
@videotron.ca | I've seen a family not wanting to claim a body before. Something about if one of the siblings claims the body then they assume the debt.
Wish I recalled how they got out of it and then finally claimed the body. Was too long ago. But it was pretty sad to see 3 kids fighting and not wanting to claim the body of their mother.
So yeah i've seen this before here, but don't recall the ins and outs of it. I think it was a funeral home who helped this family out w/ all the info.
So as far as I know, this type of thing should have been taken care of at time of death w/ help from someone at the hospital or funeral home. Surely one of them can call the gov and ask? |
|
Reviews:
 ·Start Communicat..
| reply to coxta
said by coxta:I understand this is Quebec, but what do you do if you don't have funds for a notary? Are you then stuck with paying the debt?
Legal Aid
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius |
|
 LazManPremium
join:2003-03-26
canada | reply to Gone
said by Gone:I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?
As usual, La Belle Provience has their own ideas... Here's a clip from the Quebec website:
quote:
The heirs are liable for the deceased's debts only up to the value of the property they receive from the succession, but if they exempt the liquidator from making an inventory, they are considered to have accepted the succession and are personally liable for all of the succession's debts, even if the debts exceed the value of the property they receive.
quote:
The succession is not solvent
If the property is insufficient to cover all the debts and the legacies by particular title, the liquidator must act with prudence: the liquidator must draw up a complete statement of the debts and the legacies by particular title and then make a payment proposal, which must be sent to the interested parties and be approved by the court. Before making a payment proposal, the liquidator should seek legal advice to avoid mistakes.
The payment proposal must be drafted according to certain rules: the preferred creditors (those whose claims relate to legal costs, movable property, tax laws, or property taxes) and the hypothecary creditors, according to their rank, are paid first; then the other creditors are paid, on a pro rata basis if they cannot be paid in full; next, the support creditors are paid, on a pro rata basis if they cannot be paid in full; and any legatees by particular title are paid last.
If the property is insufficient to pay all the legatees by particular title, the liquidator must follow other rules.
A liquidator may negotiate with the creditors to have them voluntarily reduce their claim in order to satisfy as many of them as possible. In doing so, the liquidator must explain the situation fully to the creditors, disclose all relevant facts to them and obtain their written consent.
So, as long as an acceptable inventory is done, the heir's aren't responsible for debts beyond the value of what they inherit... HOWEVER - if the inventory isn't done, or isn't accepted, the heir could be on the hook for a lot more...
I could see situations where just not being involved in the mess could be the easy way out...
OP - if the estate is worth less then the debts, I'd say the money for the notary, and just not getting involved, is probably the easy way out... Just my opinion. |
|
 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to coxta
said by coxta:said by Gone:I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt?
I'm sorry, I didn't read your comment properly. Apparently, if you do not renounce the succession, then you accept the succession de facto. At that time you become responsible for the debts. "If there is no notarial instrument indicating that a successor has refused to accept the succession, the successor is considered to have accepted it. " So I ask again, is Quebec so screwed up that they would do that to someone who couldn't afford a notary? The estate in question has 6 children by two families, plus two surviving siblings and several others who would be considered in the line of succession. The debt is several hundred thousand dollars. » www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/english/p···ccepting You do need a lawyer or notary in Quebec to guide you in this. This is not something most people deal with on a regular basis. Estate law is complex enough and even more complex in Quebec. That being said, the advice of a notary in Quebec in such matters is not expensive. Even Canadian lawyers are cheap by US standards. And no, their system is not "screwed up". Just different. Just like Canada.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
|
DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to I_H8_Spam
said by I_H8_Spam:said by coxta:I understand this is Quebec, but what do you do if you don't have funds for a notary? Are you then stuck with paying the debt?
Legal Aid Legal Aid does not do matters involving estates.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
|
|
|
| reply to coxta
Here are a few sections of the Code Civil that relate to your question:
632. A successor has six months from the day his right arises to deliberate and exercise his option. The period is extended of right by as many days as necessary to afford him 60 days from closure of the inventory.
During the period for deliberation, no judgment may be rendered against the successor as an heir unless he has already accepted the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 632.
633. If the successor aware of his heirship does not renounce within the period for deliberation, he is presumed to have accepted unless the period has been extended by the court. If a successor is unaware of his heirship, he may be constrained to exercise his option within the time determined by the court.
If a successor does not exercise his option within the time determined by the court, he is presumed to have renounced.
1991, c. 64, a. 633.
634. If a successor renounces within the period for deliberation fixed in article 632, the lawful expenses incurred to that time are borne by the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 634.
646. Renunciation is express. It may also result from the law.
Express renunciation is made by notarial act en minute or by a judicial declaration which is recorded.
1991, c. 64, a. 646.
|
|
hm
@videotron.ca | said by IamGimli:Here are a few sections of the Code Civil that relate to your question:
632. A successor has six months from the day his right arises to deliberate and exercise his option. The period is extended of right by as many days as necessary to afford him 60 days from closure of the inventory.
During the period for deliberation, no judgment may be rendered against the successor as an heir unless he has already accepted the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 632.
633. If the successor aware of his heirship does not renounce within the period for deliberation, he is presumed to have accepted unless the period has been extended by the court. If a successor is unaware of his heirship, he may be constrained to exercise his option within the time determined by the court.
If a successor does not exercise his option within the time determined by the court, he is presumed to have renounced.
1991, c. 64, a. 633.
634. If a successor renounces within the period for deliberation fixed in article 632, the lawful expenses incurred to that time are borne by the succession.
1991, c. 64, a. 634.
646. Renunciation is express. It may also result from the law.
Express renunciation is made by notarial act en minute or by a judicial declaration which is recorded.
1991, c. 64, a. 646.
Now I'm not sure if the cost of declaring the renunciation is included in the cost described in article 634 but it's worth looking into. If that's the case, that means the succession would pay for your friends renunciation.
blah no one cares about legaleze with these things.
They can just call the gov, 1 877 644-4545, and ask.
Funeral homes and hospitals know all the ins and outs and have forms to help people out. If they asked... |
|
hm
@videotron.ca | reply to coxta
said by coxta:My friend checked into a notary: $800 for the notary per family member.
Your friend is either playing you, or you mis-understood. Been through this once before (as stated way too long ago to recall much of it), but it's not 800$/person.
Notary will have standard forms to renounce, people sign it. A group thing. |
|
balur
join:2010-04-28
kudos:1 | reply to Gone
said by Gone:I'm going to ask again - if the estate has no money and no assets that can be sold, how can they come after someone else for the debt? A few years back when my Grandmother died she had a somewhat substantial debt on her Canadian Tire credit card.
Canadian Tire upon finding this out, contacted my dad and told him that he owed them the money.
He wasn't exactly nice to the person on the phone, and pretty much told them to leave him alone, and that they were idiots for giving a credit card to an elderly woman who did not have an income beyond what came from the government. They never contacted us again.
Though this was not in Quebec. |
|
GonePremium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:3 | They can try, but they have no legal legs to stand on. |
|
DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by Gone:They can try, but they have no legal legs to stand on.
Yup. All you have to do as Executor is to say "I am the Executor. File a claim against the estate. Otherwise, go away."
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
|
