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dragonfly

join:2012-09-04
reply to Viper359

Re: Court tells employers to accommodate child-care requests

said by Viper359:

The reason I say this might not have any major implication is because, from my experience, with shiftwork still being male dominated, its more of a suck it up and deal with it mentality.

Watch that start to change, and it should.

Viper359
Premium
join:2006-09-17
Scarborough, ON
Reviews:
·voip.ms

I hope you are right! I still work with guys who will come to work with a full blown case of the flu, and they think its fine because they have to be at work, because that's just the way it is, their daddy did it, and they have to as well. Drives me nuts.

Its lost on them that they are not as productive, and sometimes, others have to help pick up their slack, and, they make the rest of us sick, slowing us down, or worse, causing many to call in sick. If they just stayed home!

Like I said, suck it up. URG



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

You might want to clarify your position.

There's no position to clarify, it's not my position - I'm referring to the societal effects of such decisions. Men hardly ever do what you're referring to.

There are already plenty of large companies with hiring policies to to avoid hiring women in certain age groups for exactly these reasons or only hire them into certain positions that currently have a high turnaround rate. When you get to second or third round interviews that involve the people that need to position filled, you'll hear plenty of interesting questions where you'll wonder, "why are they asking that!?" They're doing it to establish how reliable you'll be for them. Asking a person if they're in a stable relationship is a question I've heard many times.

Some medium sized businesses like Canadian Tire Financial can handle and do handle it just fine. Some larger businesses, like GE, they tout their fair employment practices and in all my encounters they support them well. But there are equally just as many companies where words are used to ensure that human resources can only provide candidates that meet specific criteria that a pregnancy would disrupt.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

So in other words, you admit that you and everyone else shares the same sexist view toward childcare that only women would ever require a schedule modification to take care of their kids. Gotcha.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by Gone:

So in other words, you admit that you and everyone else shares the same sexist view toward childcare that only women would ever require a schedule modification to take care of their kids. Gotcha.

You got it wrong and you're going out of your way to have a little hissyfit about what I didn't write.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

Hissyfit? Naw. I'm just pointing out that your view is a bit more one-sided than you think, and my hope is to broaden your perspective on the issue.

There are plenty of men at the CBSA who go on parental leave and have modified schedules to take care of their kids. Based on your own post, you seem to have this view that schedule modifications for children would only ever affect women and that despite their "strives" they have somehow now become less employable by this federal court ruling.

One should remember that this is 2013, not 1963. Society has moved to a point where raising children is an equal responsibility. To believe that only women would be affected by a ruling like this is in of itself the very sexism that you believe they would now be subject to as a result of it. That may not have been your intention, but that's certainly the end result.



A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to Styvas

said by Styvas:

It's a life balance thing, and employers would be wise to recognize that accommodating that balance, even if it means small sacrifices like letting a guy go early to pick up his kids on a Friday, will lead to happier, more productive employees.

It's not that employers shouldn't accomodate people. I have hourly guys who report to me (days & afternoons) and within reason I'm willing to play around with in early/late, make up time, etc. As long as I'm not behind the gun on something I'm pretty flexible. I'm also one of the few dept. managers that never has an issue getting people to stay / work extra etc. I suspect that the flexibility and a good relationship gets me the second part.

Generally the problem comes with salaried employees is that give and take isn't evenly applied. It's not unusual in my case to work extra hours (here in the plant) and I usually answer customer inquiries if they come in at night. If I'm watching TV it helps me the next day if I answer right away. From time to time (if schedule permits) I'll cut out early on a Friday. (I should note that early for me is basically after everyone has left, but technically before my quitting time.) However, I've never said 'I didn't take a lunch' so I'm going home early. If they did that for one person, why not all?

I'd be willing to bet (no matter how few employees) that there's always one salaried person who comes in just a few minutes late and runs out the door on the clock. Not likely for any good reason, but just because they get away with it. I've worked with many women and men with kids, and it's always just one person. I know where I was working a couple of years ago enough people took advantage of bad weather days that suddenly everyone had to make up time. Some people could work at home (which they had been doing) and were told that they couldn't.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

There are plenty of men at the CBSA who go on parental leave and have modified schedules to take care of their kids.

You're not pointing anything out, only manufacturing a story. Feel free to bleet our your opinions on equality or "life at the CBSA" for the thread, but it's irrelevant for you to point this bluster in my direction.

I was referring to Canadian society when I said "men hardly ever do what you're referring to" not the CBSA and that wasn't an opinion, it's an experience.

If you can pull a statistic out of your ass that suggests men equally take as much time off as women for pregnancy or parental leave, then maybe you could dispute that aspect of my post.

However else you want to erroneously interpret what I write, well, that's your issue more than mine


noemails

@bell.ca
reply to Viper359

pay them sick days then. if it costs me 20 percent of my take home to stay at home.....im going to work with the sniffles if you get a cold or the rest of the office does maybe it makes sense for the company to look at paid sick leave



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to urbanriot

i got from your post exactly what i also see...by far, woman take mat leave...yes, some men do take paternity leave, but i have only known/seen a small few do that...i never inferred from your post that its a woman's job to stay home and raise the baby and the men should stay at work.



A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to Viper359

said by Viper359:

I think that comment is geared more towards small shiftwork companies. 24/7 operations. Plumbers, electricians, elevator mechanics, convenience stores, gas stations etc.

Agreed as when you run production x number of hours a week with a small group of employees it can truly suck when someone doesn't come in (or can't stay a full shift).


Styvas
Go Canucks Go
Premium
join:2004-09-15
Hamilton, ON
reply to A Lurker

said by A Lurker:

said by Styvas:

It's a life balance thing, and employers would be wise to recognize that accommodating that balance, even if it means small sacrifices like letting a guy go early to pick up his kids on a Friday, will lead to happier, more productive employees.

It's not that employers shouldn't accomodate people. I have hourly guys who report to me (days & afternoons) and within reason I'm willing to play around with in early/late, make up time, etc. As long as I'm not behind the gun on something I'm pretty flexible. I'm also one of the few dept. managers that never has an issue getting people to stay / work extra etc. I suspect that the flexibility and a good relationship gets me the second part.

Generally the problem comes with salaried employees is that give and take isn't evenly applied. It's not unusual in my case to work extra hours (here in the plant) and I usually answer customer inquiries if they come in at night. If I'm watching TV it helps me the next day if I answer right away. From time to time (if schedule permits) I'll cut out early on a Friday. However, I've never said 'I didn't take a lunch' so I'm going home early. If they did that for one person, why not all?

I'd be willing to bet (no matter how few employees) that there's always one salaried person who comes in just a few minutes late and runs out the door on the clock. Not likely for any good reason, but just because they get away with it. I've worked with many women and men with kids, and it's always just one person. I know where I was working a couple of years ago enough people took advantage of bad weather days that suddenly everyone had to make up time. Some people could work at home (which they had been doing) and were told that they couldn't.

I hear what you're saying, and I think, perhaps, it also depends on the industry/business type. I'm of the "get your work done on time and with the expected quality and how you organize your time is your business" mindset. If someone is skipping out early every day but also handing stuff in late or it's just shitty work, then I have a problem with that. But if they're taking half the amount of time given to perform quality work, then their boss should be giving them more work or giving them a break.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to jaberi

When my wife is working anyway, in our family I am usually the one to stay home. I can work from home just as in the office since I am remote to what I am working on anyway no matter where I am.

When the girls were born I took a month off for parental leave.

I leave a bit early so I can take the girls to gymnastics once per week.

I tend to be available for work more often than most others on my team even with the above. I am usually at my desk no later than 8:30. Others not before 9, some never before 10. In fact yesterday one came in around 10:20 when he knew he was leaving early. I come in earlier if I am leaving earlier, like today I have a dentist appointment. The ones coming in later do not always stay later either. Some may recall me mentioning before that we used to be in late and leave at the same time as others all the time.
--
The irony of common sense, it is not that common.
I cannot deny anything I did not say.
A kitten dies every time someone uses "then" and "than" incorrectly.
I mock people who give their children odd spelling of names.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to urbanriot

Men might hardly ever take care of the children in your subset of Canadian society, but I can assure you that it is far more common than your own limited view allows you to believe.

To which - how much they do is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they do and this ruling affects men just as much as it does women. To hold the view that a ruling like this would only affect women and not men is in of itself sexist. You can chose to think otherwise, but that's just the reality of the situation.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by Gone:

Men might hardly ever take care of the children in your subset of Canadian society, but I can assure you that it is far more common than your own limited view allows you to believe.

My subset of Canadian society? You mean everyone else who's outside your limited CBSA sample set? Then by that token, yes, the majority of Canada does not follow what you're suggesting.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

You can chose to think otherwise, but that's just the reality of the situation.

Oh, and concerning the reality of the situation according to Statistics Canada, out of "eligible fathers", which doesn't include all fathers, 30% filed for parental leave.

So how common do you think I think it is? That's around what I was thinking, so clearly you don't know what I'm thinking.

I really don't care what men do or don't do so you presuming how I feel is a waste of hot air. I'm just telling you how it is, that women are asked these questions more than men are.

Who has a greater chance of getting pregnant? A man or a woman? It's a pretty simple risk assessment...


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

30% is a fairly significant number. That number is even higher than I thought it would be. If one third of all fathers are doing it, it's common enough.

I don't deny that the sexism you described toward women and caring for children is common. Having said that, just because it's common does not make it right, especially if 30% of all fathers are doing it too.

(for what it's worth, nearly all fathers would be eligible for parental leave. The ineligible ones would be the unemployed and self-employed, but that ineligibility applies to unemployed and self-employed women as well)



noemails

@bell.ca
reply to Gone

i had a stay athome mom....ddi you miss out on the experience or is that concept new to you.from my side i think it would be nice that women having children are in the home not looking for daycare...



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

I could have had a stay at home dad for all you know.

I think it's nice that father's are stepping up and taking charge for the caring of their children if their wife wants to continue their career in the workforce.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Gone

You may have misinterpreted what I wrote as a suggestion that I endorse these hiring practices - I do not. On the contrary, my original motivation for posting was in dismay of this settlement as it's a psychological step back that will work against people in general.

As far as parenting goes, concerning stay-at-home configurations, I support whatever works best for that family. Personally I feel that it would be best for a woman to stay-at-home for raising daughters and a man when it's boys, but really it's whatever works for the family. Sometimes the woman is the primary breadwinner of the family and has the best benefits, pension, etc.


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

I could have had a stay at home dad for all you know.

I think it's nice that father's are stepping up and taking charge for the caring of their children if their wife wants to continue their career in the workforce.

My husband's home 3 of 5 days of the week with our son, the other 2 he's in daycare. Which works well as Nathan gets interaction with children, and his speech is improving like crazy (he throws fits if I try to teach him new words, read to him, or sing to him, but has no problems if his teachers do it, go figure).

My job is the main breadwinner and provides our benefits, but without my husband's additional income from working full time in the evenings, we'd be absolutely sunk. We're only crawling out of our hole of debt now because of him switching to full time in the evenings, vs previously only working part time.

Our schedule is a lot different than most, but for now, works for us.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


Mike2009

join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
kudos:3
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

I guess I'm lucky as my employer has accommodated my childcare issues for years but they know I'll always make up the time. Oh and I'm one of the few guys who took a couple of months parental leave for each of my kids. I also leave early every Wednesday to take my daughter to hockey and my employer is good with it. I'm one of the lucky few who have an employer that believes in work life balance.



nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

I could have had a stay at home dad for all you know.

I think it's nice that father's are stepping up and taking charge for the caring of their children if their wife wants to continue their career in the workforce.

Nitz's friend does that. He's the "Stay at home dad", so Mom goes off to work at the bank, and he stays home with the kids, well, walks them to school now that they're older, she's more career driven, and he's more wanting to raise and care for his 2 kids....I mean I jab at him about it, but hey it works for them and they're both happy...he'd rather be "Mr. Mom".

Also, shift work is more than what others have posted...shift work can take a variety of careers....sheesh, in my industry I think its practically 50/50 down the middle...if not more so skewed towards women vs. men. Which is why I was interested in this as it could have some implications for me.


Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2
reply to peterboro

said by peterboro:

She's a CBSA worker what do you expect.

What I expect? I would have expected for her to be respected in her request since the CBSA has about 100 other workers at her work location, are you telling me that they could not get someone else to cover her missing hours/days? C'mon, there's always 6 of them doing nothing talking on a coffee table.