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morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to The Mongoose

Re: [Cable] TEKSAVVY, KICK YOUR LAWYERS IN THE ASS

In the end your isp is who u complain to who gives credits to you, If your out of service u complain and hopefully get credit. whether its teksavvys or rogers fault or bells, does not matter you have no recourse against anyone except Your personal Isp, They can then go after their ISP etc..
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to The Mongoose

I wouldn't bother trying to explain the reality of getting internet service via a TPIA provider Mongoose. You'll get 1 of 2 answers thrown back at you:

1) You're a "fanboy"
2) I pay TekSavvy, it's TekSavvy's problem and 100% responsibility.

Let them simmer in their grudges, it's typical consumer mentality. Been dealing with it every since I started working retail jobs to pay for school. It's always worse when it comes to technology, no one wants to know about technical stuff, they just want it to work, and work the way the way they want it to.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to morisato

Except they can't go after the wholesale provider (Rogers Bell etc) because there's nothing in the CRTC regs that protects the TPIA or the TPIA's customer.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

1 edit
reply to TypeS

said by TypeS:

I wouldn't bother trying to explain the reality of getting internet service via a TPIA provider Mongoose. You'll get 1 of 2 answers thrown back at you:

1) You're a "fanboy"
2) I pay TekSavvy, it's TekSavvy's problem and 100% responsibility.

Let them simmer in their grudges, it's typical consumer mentality. Been dealing with it every since I started working retail jobs to pay for school. It's always worse when it comes to technology, no one wants to know about technical stuff, they just want it to work, and work the way the way they want it to.

Yet your #2 reason is true and you can't seem to get a grasp that that is the reality of life. Though Teksavvy is discussed on here as to their requirements for Bell/Rogers etc, it's NOT advertised on their front page or on the pages showing each internet plan. When you show bias, you're called a fanboy for it, that's also a reality of life.

If users calling you that angers you then you're getting far too involved.

Quit thinking every customer should know everything. Wake up and realize people who choose a company don't expect excuses about who & where their product/service comes from. Reality is people want what they pay for to work, it isn't that much to ask.

Don't be so ignorant to expect everyone to think like you think.

Edit: I'm not defending the OP and i'm not defending you. Simply an overall statement. There are a few users on these forums that really go too far with the fanboy stuff and that IMHO hurts Teksavvy.

Love and enjoy Teksavvy, they are after all who changed the industry so far, but don't be IN-LOVE with them.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

I'm not expecting people to think like I think nor am I angered by the sheer ungrateful attitude many consumers have. Don't make that assumption Tx.

I am also not biased, I can't give TekSavvy a perfect rating (not even close). I simply point out the reality of the huge mess that is Internet access in Canada.

I also stated numerous times that people who want a credit for downtime should get it. I posted that theres 2 sides of the whole outage situations and people should tone down their rage a little.

But oh well. As long as people pick their battles with their ISP and not the root causes of the dismal state of Internet access in Canada, we're always going to get the shaft and suffer poor connections and high rates.


The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to morisato

said by morisato:

In the end your isp is who u complain to who gives credits to you, If your out of service u complain and hopefully get credit. whether its teksavvys or rogers fault or bells, does not matter you have no recourse against anyone except Your personal Isp, They can then go after their ISP etc..

Right, but the TPIA providers can't go after the incumbents, sadly. As such, I accept the fact that I'm unlikely to be compensated for downtime caused by Rogers (or random craziness like a truck crashing through a cable).

It's my opinion that it's unreasonable to demand compensation from Tek, Start, Acanac, et al for something like that. Not only are they not responsible, paying customers for every outage would squeeze margins and could increase everyone's prices. They can't provide the service they do unless they can make at least some profit. And if the independents fail, we're left with an even more powerful RoBelUs Oligopoly.


zacron
Premium
join:2008-11-26
canada
reply to tGelinas

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDwIN9oLvY

--
"Recognize, Realize, and Repent"


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to The Mongoose

said by The Mongoose:

said by morisato:

In the end your isp is who u complain to who gives credits to you, If your out of service u complain and hopefully get credit. whether its teksavvys or rogers fault or bells, does not matter you have no recourse against anyone except Your personal Isp, They can then go after their ISP etc..

Right, but the TPIA providers can't go after the incumbents, sadly. As such, I accept the fact that I'm unlikely to be compensated for downtime caused by Rogers (or random craziness like a truck crashing through a cable).

It's my opinion that it's unreasonable to demand compensation from Tek, Start, Acanac, et al for something like that. Not only are they not responsible, paying customers for every outage would squeeze margins and could increase everyone's prices. They can't provide the service they do unless they can make at least some profit. And if the independents fail, we're left with an even more powerful RoBelUs Oligopoly.

Sadly you hit the nail on the head to a point. There are circumstances where TSI is responsible. Let's not forget, it is after all their equipment right up to before the last mile. Instead of 10gig links they were doing 1 gig links and i believe many complained about this.

There are plenty of areas TSI can mess up and as a business, is responsible for compensation to their paying customers. This isn't a profit game for customers, it's a service game for customers. Silly small outages is one thing, bad business decisions and failure to take care of a customer who deserves a credit, deserves to be taken care of, that's also on TSI/start etc. (this statement isn't saying TSI did anything wrong right now. Just a general statement on compensation)

The part so many seem to forget when arguing Teksavvy's heroic battle is this. They got in this business, not a game. As such it requires understanding in customer service. Customer service 100% of the time will require refunds, compensations etc. It's not only about profits right now. All this said, TSI has done a good job as of late compensating people. Everyone on these forums seems to believe the understand what money TSI brings in. If it were that simple they wouldn't need an accountant. Stop the assumptions. Teksavvy i guarantee has a business model that allows some compensation room. Marc is doing a good job regaining control of an out of control spiral.

A good business man isn't in business only to think and assume it's a get rich quick scheme. Eg: Pure profits. Even at a $1 profit per customer it's $300k per month after the bills are paid. I can go assume that too, but truth be told, i do not know, nor does anyone else on this forum. Their profits are good enough to sustain growth, rapid growth. Two offices now and a HUGE staff compared to 6 years ago where i believe i knew every tech by name on the phone when they answered.

Until TSI starts laying it's own infrastructure and goes in to debt with creditors to pay for it, that's when their margins are insanely thin, that's when profits change. I believe this day will come where they start laying down their own. Until then, it's a simple game of cat and mouse with them and the big guys.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

That day will never come. A "3rd telecomms wire" to your house is not going to happen. It costs way too much to install.


blaznazn224

join:2010-09-10
Scarborough, ON
reply to walile

if you really feel that strongly about this, then go over to rogers, or bell. You will definitely pay more for a similar service, but you will have direct access to support from the owners of the cable internet service in Canada. After that you can bitch and whine and complain all day. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. The best analogy I can think of for this rogers/teksavvy relationship is this:
Rogers owns the house and rents it out to teksavvy. The renter has very few rights, he can not modify the house in any way without permission from the owner of the house. The only thing the renter can do is bring in his own furniture.



QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to TypeS

said by TypeS:

I'm not expecting people to think like I think nor am I angered by the sheer ungrateful attitude many consumers have.

I'm unclear on the concept of a customer being grateful to the supplier. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

I'll grant that customer expectations can be too high given a number of factors related to product, price, place and promotion (4 P's). It is TekSavvy's job to set expectations and explain their value proposition.

If you think that crusading against the status quo is part of that value then show me where any of that is explained on the TekSavvy web site.

In the end the customer will decide if sufficient value is being provided. Also, as a customer I can set my expectations as I choose. Having low expectations serves me how exactly?

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

Except they can't go after the wholesale provider (Rogers Bell etc) because there's nothing in the CRTC regs that protects the TPIA or the TPIA's customer.

Then thats something The tpia should be persueing because in order to remain in the marketplace u have to credit customers for downtime when excessive if i was without internet for a week or anything in excess of 24-48 hours I would be mightily annoyed and expect More than a We are sorry. This is not something we the end users can Do for them They need to speak up and get that portion fixed.
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to tGelinas

If it weren't for the perserverence of third party providers, we would all still be talking to Bell, Rogers, Telus etc. at ridiculous prices like Long Distance for 10c per minute after midnight. (Look at cellular LD rates from the incumbents ... some charge LD to make a local call when away from your home area, even though you're still on their network!) Third party providers actually started to provide at least SOME competition that made the public aware they are being ripped off.

So, in that sense, we have to show some gratitude to them for working towards providing competition. Let's face it, when everything you want to do ends up before the CRTC to try to get incumbents to provide some part of that service, it takes an immense amount of perserverance and money. It would be far easier to just give up. But they didn't.

The situation we have is not ideal ... the agreements bartered through the CRTC are missing important things, like SLAs. There is little there to actually protect the end user. The take from the incumbents is that the discount they get through the TPIA is all the benefit the end user should be allowed as is demonstrated through the reluctance to speed match and provide connectivity to a POI at reasonable rates and still wanting to enforce UBB.

From the incumbent's perspective, the discounted rate IS our rebate for loss of service and a price we should pay for potentially substandard service.

Worse still is that the incumbents own customers are suffering a declining level of service. There is the belief that they can fix line problems in a few days. Gone are the days of service within hours. Why? Because we are now paying comparatively discounted rates for service compared with 20 years ago.

Some push back from customers is needed to get the incumbents to improve their own services, and especially to improve the services provided to the TPIAs. Obviously complaining directly to the incumbents isn't going to work. We have no leverage. Complaints must go to the CRTC, the Department of Industry and the Minister for Industry.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to morisato

Morisato, you think the TPIAs aren't pursuing this? There are lots of things that at this time though do have higher priority. Look at all the people here clamouring for speed matching and no caps. You can be sure that the TPIAs are talking about how to deal with these things. It just is going to take time.


MrMazda86

join:2013-01-29
Kitchener, ON
reply to morisato

said by morisato:

said by sbrook:

Except they can't go after the wholesale provider (Rogers Bell etc) because there's nothing in the CRTC regs that protects the TPIA or the TPIA's customer.

Then thats something The tpia should be persueing because in order to remain in the marketplace u have to credit customers for downtime when excessive if i was without internet for a week or anything in excess of 24-48 hours I would be mightily annoyed and expect More than a We are sorry. This is not something we the end users can Do for them They need to speak up and get that portion fixed.

Please do not take this the wrong way as I do not mean to sound condescending or insulting, but, have you posted your account details in the TekSavvy Direct forum along with a brief statement describing the service outage (start time, end time, etc) and politely requested a service credit for the outage?

From my experience, TekSavvy has always been very straight forward and easy to work with in that regard. In fact, when I had problems with a TekSavvy DSL line where the problem was actually Hell Telecom (formerly Bell). TekSavvy handled the situation in the utmost of professional and prompt of manners and wasted no time getting down to business to get me switched from DSL to Cable for that connection location.

Just a friendly word of advice when dealing with TekSavvy - Do not go on the attack right from the get go, because this will only get people's guard up. Instead, just calmly state the issue that you're having and either make your request (such as a credit), or you can alternatively just leave the matter open-ended with a general blanket statement such as "What can we do about fixing this?" and you might be surprised at the kind of response you will get from them.

You also need to take into account and understand that TekSavvy is run by humans (just like you), and as such, they are subject to occasionally suffering from simple human error on the odd occasion. Don't feel bad though because it is impossible to find any single provider that is always 100% perfect. Again, should you run into this, I would suggest just politely clarifying your situation, and you will very quickly find that TekSavvy will actually be really great about fixing their mistakes and making things right, but the key boils down to the concept of "ask and you shall receive".


QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

Some push back from customers is needed to get the incumbents to improve their own services, and especially to improve the services provided to the TPIAs. Obviously complaining directly to the incumbents isn't going to work. We have no leverage. Complaints must go to the CRTC, the Department of Industry and the Minister for Industry.

This is an area where, I have learned in these forums, Rocky and a vocal group of demonstrators has shown temendous leadership in the past. For that I owe them a dept of gratitude.

I am unaware of any group providing such leadership today; likely just because of my ignorance. For me to be effective I would like to see executive briefs to help frame complaints to the proper authorities. This is something I assume a knowledeable TPIA advocacy organization or consumer group would provide.

Unlike this post I would like a complaint to the authorities not to come across as insane ramblings


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to blaznazn224

said by blaznazn224:

if you really feel that strongly about this, then go over to rogers, or bell. You will definitely pay more for a similar service, but you will have direct access to support from the owners of the cable internet service in Canada. After that you can bitch and whine and complain all day. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. The best analogy I can think of for this rogers/teksavvy relationship is this:
Rogers owns the house and rents it out to teksavvy. The renter has very few rights, he can not modify the house in any way without permission from the owner of the house. The only thing the renter can do is bring in his own furniture.

Great job helping Rogers/Bell out. You'd make them proud.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to QuantumPimp

said by QuantumPimp:

said by TypeS:

I'm not expecting people to think like I think nor am I angered by the sheer ungrateful attitude many consumers have.

I'm unclear on the concept of a customer being grateful to the supplier. Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

I'll grant that customer expectations can be too high given a number of factors related to product, price, place and promotion (4 P's). It is TekSavvy's job to set expectations and explain their value proposition.

If you think that crusading against the status quo is part of that value then show me where any of that is explained on the TekSavvy web site.

In the end the customer will decide if sufficient value is being provided. Also, as a customer I can set my expectations as I choose. Having low expectations serves me how exactly?

+1

Quite honestly, very well said. When did the day come where customers should be the grateful ones? That's a bit twisted.

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

That day will never come. A "3rd telecomms wire" to your house is not going to happen. It costs way too much to install.

I do think, very long term, that a 3rd line (FTTH) will be installed in a lot of places. But I agree with the sentiment. Honestly, at times it seems like the better way to get your own last mile would be to invest in a massive amount of LTE spectrum and tie it into your existing backbone. Hugely expensive, of course, but less so compared to ripping up streets to install cable or fibre.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

Then you'll run out of available spectrum, and everybody's gonna start really screaming about radiation health effects.


jkoblovsky

join:2011-09-27
Keswick, ON
kudos:2

2 edits
reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

Morisato, you think the TPIAs aren't pursuing this? There are lots of things that at this time though do have higher priority. Look at all the people here clamouring for speed matching and no caps. You can be sure that the TPIAs are talking about how to deal with these things. It just is going to take time.

There's a thousand different ways I could attack that statement but won't. Protecting Canadians against unwarrented search and seizure should be a top priority especially at the ISP level.

»excesscopyright.blogspot.ca/2013···isp.html

»jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/2013/01···nternet/

It's also a Charter right. The EU has quite strongly threatened their telecom industry and private sector with regulations regarding citizens privacy:

»jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/2013/02···nternet/

If it's going to continue not being a priority for ISPs, it may be rammed down the throat of those not on board. Glad Distibutel has directly stood up. If others don't follow, I would expect the feds to follow up with regulation in the future with possible severe penalties on those that do not take their customers privacy as a priority. My prediction anyway.

Lets set the priorities in digital policy before we look at how screwed the industry is because of regulations that had no consumer input. Privacy is a very big issue and priority especially for MEP's right now and soon for us as well. The CRTC in recent months has seemed to have changed, opening it's doors and advertising for public input. The other issues will be dealt with in the near future. Privacy is a federal issue. I would suspect law makers in Canada are looking very closely on what TSI does right now.
--
My Canadian Tech Podcast: »canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/
My Self Help and Digital Policy Blog: »jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13

Jason, this thread is not about the matter of the ongoing Voltage vs John Doe case.

Why have you chosen to derail this discussion with your own, albeit important, agenda?


jkoblovsky

join:2011-09-27
Keswick, ON
kudos:2

said by sbrook:

Jason, this thread is not about the matter of the ongoing Voltage vs John Doe case.

Why have you chosen to derail this discussion with your own, albeit important, agenda?

Opps..misread the OP. I apologize. Not my intention to derail, however overstating the privacy issues attached to Voltage vs John Doe case, and importance of making privacy a priority for TPIA's should be welcomed in any thread.
--
My Canadian Tech Podcast: »canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/
My Self Help and Digital Policy Blog: »jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable

Well, why then do we have thread titles or even threads at all? Let's just wade through the millions of posts It's why people appreciate staying at least somewhat on topic And it's not as if the privacy issue isn't being discussed.


jkoblovsky

join:2011-09-27
Keswick, ON
kudos:2

said by sbrook:

Well, why then do we have thread titles or even threads at all? Let's just wade through the millions of posts It's why people appreciate staying at least somewhat on topic And it's not as if the privacy issue isn't being discussed.

You don't have to explain forum etiquette to me. I used to admin and mod several forums My mistake. I've got 50 million things on the go here. Thought I saw an opportunity to comment, and didn't read the OP properly. Too busy multi-tasking. Sorry
--
My Canadian Tech Podcast: »canadiantechnetwork.podbean.com/
My Self Help and Digital Policy Blog: »jkoblovsky.wordpress.com/