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Hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Davesnothere

Re: Start communications as of Feb-11-2013 2Mb DSL service

said by Davesnothere:

I don't expect that many folks would WANT it though, these days.

In terms of DSL, yes I can see people wanting it.

Keep in mind that many people in Canada can't get more than 2-meg service to their home, regardless what anyone wants to say.

That is the nature of decrepit Bell lines.

Why should someone be forced to pay for 5 or 6-meg service when they can only get 1.5 or 2-meg? Many, many people fall into this situation.

Why can't a service be tailored to what the decrepit lines can handle?

There is a hole here.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by Hm :

Why should someone be forced to pay for 5 or 6-meg service when they can only get 1.5 or 2-meg?

Unfortunately the ISP still has to pay the same costs to Bell and yet incurs an additional performance premium overhead with throttling.

Bell has done much upgrade work over the past year and the number of <= 2Mbps loops is about 4% and quickly dropping. Of that small percentage the vast majority can get cable so we're talking maybe about 1% here and likely the majority of those customers already have it and are being grandfathered. We tried it for a while but the uptake wasn't there, ie I can count on one hand the number of 2Mbps customers we've had this year and with the changes that are coming to our DSL packages within the next month it doesn't make sense to continue it. When the new packages are released it will be much more obvious our direction and I think most people will be happy with the results.

said by Teddy Boom:

If Rogers would improve the outrageous 256kbit upload on the lowest cable tier, 2mbit DSL would become much less interesting.

I would not be surprised to see that happen in the near future.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by rocca:

said by Hm :

Why should someone be forced to pay for 5 or 6-meg service when they can only get 1.5 or 2-meg?

Unfortunately the ISP still has to pay the same costs to Bell and yet incurs an additional performance premium overhead with throttling.

Bell has done much upgrade work over the past year and the number of <= 2Mbps loops is about 4% and quickly dropping. Of that small percentage the vast majority can get cable so we're talking maybe about 1% here and likely the majority of those customers already have it and are being grandfathered. We tried it for a while but the uptake wasn't there, ie I can count on one hand the number of 2Mbps customers we've had this year and with the changes that are coming to our DSL packages within the next month it doesn't make sense to continue it. When the new packages are released it will be much more obvious our direction and I think most people will be happy with the results.

Yeah I recall going through the numbers in this forum, or the TSI forum, on this topic once before with JF and Rocky.

If I recall right, and my memory isn't too great these days and this is going back about 3 years, the CRTC or industry Canada wants to see a 3-meg minimum. Yet most everyone of the lower speeds were capped at ridiculously low usage. I don't recall the numbers so i'll just wing it as an example:

- 2-meg internet with a whole 50-gig or 75-gig usage
- 5meg internet, 300-gigs, or unlimited for more $.

What do you think people went for? The usage. Or they got dinged big time for the overages. And for every gig over, the price per gig was like 10x more for the 2-meg service than the 5-meg service. The packages themselves made zero sense. So yeah, people wouldn't take it. Could this have been why you only had enough people to count on one hand?

The package was *made to fail*.

I do recall people on decrepit lines complaining about this.

Let's assume Bell fixed 100% of the insanely bad lines. That still leaves people who are too far and/or the poor student, or mom & pop that can't make ends meet.

If the CRTC/Industry Canada wants to set a minimum, then that minimum package should exist at less cost/month with the same usage. People shouldn't have been (and continue) to have paid the same price (or more) as someone else on a faster tier, or take a less fast tier then be charged more than 5-meg service just due to the usage.

Made zero sense. And still makes zero sense.

If the most basic of tiers is now 5-meg, then this is what industry Canada and the CRTC should aim for as the minimum speed in Canada. Not 3.

If I recall right, about 3 years ago Rocky (or one of his minions) corrected me when I stated 50% were at 3.5-meg. The stats they had for their customer base was at about 35%

Anyhow, i'm not sure how it is today. 3 internet years is a long time. But there are still many people in this situation.

Would be interesting to see the actual statistics from Teksavvy, Acanac, Ebox, and yourself on the total number of people who cannot achieve more than 3-meg, just to get a ballpark.

Anyhoo...


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by hm :

Would be interesting to see the actual statistics from Teksavvy, Acanac, Ebox, and yourself on the total number of people who cannot achieve more than 3-meg, just to get a ballpark.

That 4% figure is directly from the qualification database Bell has and that percentage drops every month as more FTTN is rolled out. As of today, 43% of loops are eligible for 25Mbps and growing.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by rocca:

That 4% figure is directly from the qualification database Bell has and that percentage drops every month as more FTTN is rolled out. As of today, 43% of loops are eligible for 25Mbps and growing.

Is that the same qualification database people use to find out what service they can get at their home?

If so, how many people have pumped their numbers into that thing to see 5-meg internet available and ended up with 3 or 2-meg internet? I think the Canadian DSL forums will speak volumes about that "qualification database". Even the ISP owners and people who work the forums speak volumes on that dBase all the time. And the bottom line on that is, it's not to be trusted.

Even I qualify for 5-meg DSL internet. But there is no one for a 3 block radius that can get above 3. 2 is the average.

Or is this another dBase?

vincom

join:2009-03-06
Bolton, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to rocca
That 4% figure is directly from the qualification database Bell has and that percentage drops every month as more FTTN is rolled out. As of today, 43% of loops are eligible for 25Mbps and growing.
ive been waiting in bolton forever, of course bell doesnt know when but states "upgrades are progressing in a number of neighborhoods"


jasmo34

join:2008-03-20
London, ON
reply to rocca
And how's that FTTN percentage for London? You told me months ago there was "very little" in London.

A tech working at the Bell shack (10x15 building) not 100' away from me, said FTTN should reach me by 2080! I know my phone wires physically go to that shack, but that is not my internet 'access point', apparently. (This location is near Oxford & McNay).

But, the Bell tech who installed my Grab'N Go 5M DSL kit last summer (highest speed I could get!), thought I would get FTTN, served up right from that very shack. Maybe sometime in the next year or two.

I don't know who to believe!

If low-end cable gets a better upload, I'll probably go there anyway. I know where a lowly D2 modem is sitting unused!

Is DSLR a little 'sluggish' today? I got a bunch of gateway errors earlier...


hm

@videotron.ca
said by jasmo34:

Is DSLR a little 'sluggish' today? I got a bunch of gateway errors earlier...

DSLr upgraded to Bell servers. Unfortunately, the database that said they could handle 1-gig of traffic was a little off. They got 500-kb/s.


Davesnothere
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1 edit
reply to jasmo34
said by jasmo34:

And how's that FTTN percentage for London? You told me months ago there was "very little" in London....

 
And neither London nor Bolton is all that small.

Yes, I wonder....

That 4% figure strikes me as low/fudged.

So are there certain municipalities where they have much higher % of Non-FTTN still in place.

I can think of a city of about 30K pop - Brockville, Ontario.

OK then, let's do some lookups for DSL....

Try Postal Codes 'K6V xxx'.

How are we doing THIS year ?

In 2012, almost NOBODY there qualified for FTTN, so max at 5 or 6 Mbps legacy DSL was best case.

Luckily, Cogeco had upgraded and was offering most or all of their faster tiers to most of that otherwise neglected place.


Davesnothere
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1 edit
 
OK, of course we were originally talking about how many only qualified for 2Mbps DSL when the 4% figure came up, and if 43% of subscriber lines qualify for 25Mbps (aka VDSL), then the 57% remainder only qualify for some of the lesser speeds, which could include my example of Brockville, plus Bolton and London, AND that 4% would also be a subset of this 57%.

Does anyone know what % qualify for 15/1 DSL service ?

And same question, this time for 5/800 legacy DSL service ?


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

In 2012, almost NOBODY there qualified for FTTN, so max at up to 5 or 6 Mbps legacy DSL was best case.

Hmm, I corrected your mistake.

Rocca needs to run some kind of script to actually find out exactly how many legacy DSL people have what they bought.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to hm
said by hm :

Is that the same qualification database people use to find out what service they can get at their home?

Yes, it's broken down into estimated speeds of 0.6, 1.5, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 10, 15 and 25.

said by hm :

Even I qualify for 5-meg DSL internet. But there is no one for a 3 block radius that can get above 3. 2 is the average.

Oh absolutely, the legacy DSL is definitely an 'up to' type of service but always has been, the FTTN on the other hand is considerably more accurate/consistent.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

That 4% figure strikes me as low/fudged.

I really don't have any reason to fudge the numbers. Just telling you what the database says.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to break it down by postal codes or cities very easily, sorry.

As for the >= 15/1 question ... 49%.


Davesnothere
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reply to hm
said by hm :

said by Davesnothere:

In 2012, almost NOBODY there qualified for FTTN, so max at up TWO 5 or 6 Mbps legacy DSL was best case.

Hmm, I corrected your mistake....

And I amended your correction.

See folks, the 2 is still there !


Davesnothere
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1 edit
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

said by Davesnothere:

That 4% figure strikes me as low/fudged.

I really don't have any reason to fudge the numbers. Just telling you what the database says.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to break it down by postal codes or cities very easily, sorry.

As for the >= 15/1 question ... 49%.

 
YOU aren't spinning anything, but how many of us trust Bell ?

I have occasionally found errors in their lookups.

= = = = = = =

What about how many % qualify for <= 15/1 ? (anything DSL but not VDSL)


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by Davesnothere:

I have occasionally found errors in their lookups.

I'm sure there are a few, but not enough to be statistically relevant.

said by Davesnothere:

What about how many % qualify for <= 15/1 ? (anything DSL but not VDSL)

43% can get VDSL, 57% are less than that. 59% can get some sort of FTTN, 96% are more than 2Mbps.

Bell has no choice but to continue pushing out FTTN as fast as it can to try and keep market share from going to the cable companies.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
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said by rocca:

said by Davesnothere:

What about how many % qualify for <= 15/1 ? (anything DSL but not VDSL)

43% can get VDSL, 57% are less than that. 59% can get some sort of FTTN, 96% are more than 2Mbps.

Bell has no choice but to continue pushing out FTTN as fast as it can to try and keep market share from going to the cable companies.

 
And on that, Bell needs to 'get cracking' !

At least for now, Bell is pushing their 'No Usage Caps on ALL Plans' enhancement.

A site where I lookup my TV listings was running a clickable banner about that a few minutes ago, using a Greek infinity symbol.

Ah, 57% (as I figured when you first mentioned the 43% able to get 25Mb service earlier).

So, based on the same extrapolation technique by me, if 59% can get some sort of FTTN, then would 41% be how many lines which are stuck on legacy DSL ? (6Mb and under)


rocca
Start.ca
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join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
Correct.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
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Reviews:
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reply to jasmo34
said by jasmo34:

And how's that FTTN percentage for London? You told me months ago there was "very little" in London.

I moved further into the city in London last year, closer to downtown now. My old address only qualified for 6Mbps/800Kbps. My new address only qualifies for 6/1 on Bell's site but both TekSavvy and Start qualify me for 15/1 and TekSavvy qualifies me for 25/10 even. Postal code is N5V xxx. Dunno if either companies have errors in their qualification postal codes or Bell's web qualifier is out of date.

Considering VDSL atm (its a lot more costly than Cable) since there have been 2 recent major outages with cable in London recently. And I have had Rogers screw up DHCP on my node 3 times cutting my internet on 3 separate weekends. Never had these issues with 6Mbps DSL with TekSavvy or when I was with Primus.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

And same question, this time for 5/800 legacy DSL service ?

Legacy has been 6M/800 for over a year already.

As far as coverage for 5M/800 goes, I would suspect 96% minus whatever does not qualify for even 2Mbps or has no DSL service whatsoever, so probably better than 90%.


Davesnothere
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said by InvalidError:

....As far as coverage for 5M/800 goes, I would suspect 96% minus whatever does not qualify for even 2Mbps or has no DSL service whatsoever, so probably better than 90%.

 
I realized that I had at first asked the wrong question (or worded it wrongly), when I asked again, 3 posts above, where I proposed that 41% do not qualify for FTTN of any type after Mister Rocca had elaborated that 59% DO - and he agreed.

Actually, I wanted to get a sense of what % of lines/loops had NOT been upgraded to ANY type of FTTN, when he had originally only posted of how many qualify for VDSL.