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Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2

Can Somebody Talk Sense To My Female Friend?

She's jubilant because she got a part-time job but it's a sucker's deal and she won't listen to me or anybody else.

It's cleaning an entire floor at an office building, I imagine there must be like 20 offices in each floor with each "office" having many cubicles? The building manager has told her that 2 people can do this job in 4 hours, it must be done every day from Monday to Friday. The pay is $1,250 dollars a month.

I have done the math for her: The money must be split with the person that's going to help her (a friend of her's) so that's $625 dollars each a month. Now they must work 20 hours a week, so in a month it would be 80 hours. Now let's divide $625 between 80 hours, that's a paltry $7.81/hr.

So my friend and her helper will work for $7.81 late at night and must provide their own transportation, the job is downtown and they live in the suburbs, it's like a 40 min drive one-way.

Does anyone here thinks this is ridiculous and a low-paying job? It's not even minimum wage. Anyways, I'll let her crash her head against a brick wall, I just feel mad that these scumballs get away with hiring people to do jobs for such a paltry pay.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
I knew this guy and his wife that worked for this jerk cleaning an office in Waterloo. Guy was dying of cancer and could only work 3 hours or so a day. The job paid $500 PER MONTH! I did the math for him, and it works out to about $2.60/hour. Not close to minimum (when it was $6.85)...but he said he needed the money...

Tell her not to claim it...CPP is 9.9% on that income.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


Kitlope

join:2004-07-29
Edmonton, Ab
reply to Xstar_Lumini
About 10 years ago I had a roomate friend that worked with fiberglass and worked for a guy doing "piece" work. He was gone to his job everyday, sometimes Saturdays, all day around 8 hours. At the end of the month he got paid and it was about $400.00 for the month. He wasn't the brightest fellow and I told him he was essentially making $2.00 - $2.50/hr and at the time minimum wage was around $7.50 but it was like talking to a brick wall. He drove an old boat from early 80's that probably ate up half his income and needless to say he struggled to pay his rent. We parted ways in the summer of 2003 and I've always wondered since then if he has woken up from being taking advantage of.

Some people there is just no helping.


Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2
reply to Xstar_Lumini
I told here that a janitor job has to pay out at least $15 an hour to make it worthwhile, and I'm being modest here.

I used to work (when I was younger) for this contractor, he did construction house work, either paving a driveway, building walls or waterproofing a house. When he went to do an estimate on a waterproofing on a house he would make sure that his "cut" was $2,000 dollars clean outside worker wages and materials and that the job did not take more than 2 days to do. He told me that as a contractor he would not make only $500 clean on a job that took 2 days to finish.

He estimated a house waterproofing at $6,500 one time. There were 5 of us who did the work. We were making $18/hour. We spent 2.5 days in finishing it (25 hours).

So $18 x 5 guys x 25 hrs = $2250

The mini-excavator and bobcat rental was $600 a day, that's $1200 + 300 = $1500.

Material was around $600, plus fuel for crew truck and machines was $100. So 2,250+1500+600+100= $4,450

So he got paid $6,500 and spent $4,450 so he made clean profit of $2,050. That's barely in the threshold of what my boss tolerated, he said he would NOT do a job that would not net him at least $1,000 in a project, and that it must not exceed 1 day. If the project lasted 3 days he would tolerate making only $500 in the third day but he refused to come out even or lose money.

He learnt his lesson when he accepted to waterproof a house for $3,500 and we spent 4 days doing it and he lost $1,800 out of his own pocket.

Math my boys, do the math.

As for me I refuse to work for less than $30 an hour, I will take $20 cash an hour on a Sunday if I'm bored and there's nothing for me to do but not Monday to Friday. If it's a fixed-price project I'm going to do I do the math and break it down, if my pay is less than $30 an hour forget it, give it to someone that's more desperate than me.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

1 edit
reply to Xstar_Lumini
said by Xstar_Lumini:

Does anyone here thinks this is ridiculous and a low-paying job? It's not even minimum wage. Anyways, I'll let her crash her head against a brick wall, I just feel mad that these scumballs get away with hiring people to do jobs for such a paltry pay.

It is likely a sucker's pay. Cleaning jobs almost always are. A number of company's will hire one cleaner until they realise they can't make enough money, then repeat the cycle. There are a couple of things to consider.

a) what needs to be done every night
b) can some tasks be done say only twice a week, etc.
c) can they shave some time off the 4 hours

Regardless of what they've been told, there may be some room for negotiation. If the pay is too low then it's certain that someone else has dumped the job.

Also, as a contractor remember things like gas, partial upkeep on the vehicle, etc. can be claimed against income. This is assuming that they're going to claim it. Once they start claiming it though there are gov't fees, etc.

As well, working in someone else's business opens you up to liability. Actually, all self-employed persons need to consider liability insurance of some sort. This is very much a 'do what I say, not as I did' statement. Ask her what will happen if they forget to lock up properly and the offices are robbed? Or they catch a cable and pull a monitor off a desk?

If you really want to discourage her, start talking about WSIB and/or GST/HST requirements. If she's injured while working she will not be covered in any way under the hiring company's insurance, so she should consider disability. What arrangements does she have to make if she's ill? Can the other person take over for a night, does she have to provide a replacement?

Full disclosure - I worked for myself for many years and dealt with little of the above. However, I primarily worked out of my home and none of the places I did work in-house even brought up the idea of a WSIB waiver.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1

3 edits

1 recommendation

reply to Xstar_Lumini
She needs to find some SMALL offices she can clean. Like, really small offices. These offices are like finding gold. Here's why. Most large companies have NO interest n cleaning a law office or accountant office on the 2nd floor of a historic building. They aren't interested in smaller offices with less than 20 employees that want the work done once a week.

So, she finds 6 or 8 small offices, usually receptionist, washroom, 1 office. You charge $35 for this. 20 minutes to clean up. Office is NOT offended at paying $140/month for that service. Now..you get 28 jobs that are like that: 28 jobs spread over 4 days, is 7 jobs per night.

7 jobs per night is about 180 minutes max, plus 60 minutes of drive time, max. It's also $245 per night. $980 per week. $50960 per year. Works out to $81.67/hour. Working 69 hours a month..( edit note, said per week with some other weird number....oops)
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
said by J E F F:

Working 623 hours a week.

Cool you've altered the space time continuum. Can I come.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:

Working 623 hours a week.

How many hours in a single planet rotation does the planet you are from do?


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

Cool you've altered the space time continuum. Can I come.

Been there. Saw chronoss. so I came back.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
said by hm :

said by peterboro:

Cool you've altered the space time continuum. Can I come.

Been there. Saw chronoss. so I came back.

Don't tell me he's a lucid and articulate demi-god in the alternative universe you visited and we are the ones who are FUBARed.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by peterboro:

said by hm :

said by peterboro:

Cool you've altered the space time continuum. Can I come.

Been there. Saw chronoss. so I came back.

Don't tell me he's a lucid and articulate demi-god in the alternative universe you visited and we are the ones who are FUBARed.

Two words:
Bizarro world.

I guess the young people here won't know what that is... here...
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi ··· ro_World


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Xstar_Lumini
Ive heard of Wallys World, and Waynes World but Jeffs World takes the cake.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Xstar_Lumini
It seems the general consensus is, how many times has your friend been kicked in the head by a cow. (rhetorical question).

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Xstar_Lumini
I wonder if your friend could work for awhile and then put in an ESA claim to get at least minimum wage?


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
said by peterboro:

I wonder if your friend could work for awhile and then put in an ESA claim to get at least minimum wage?

Pretty sure as a non-employee the standards wouldn't apply. The answer is that they shouldn't take the work if they 'profit' isn't high enough.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
said by A Lurker:

said by peterboro:

I wonder if your friend could work for awhile and then put in an ESA claim to get at least minimum wage?

Pretty sure as a non-employee the standards wouldn't apply. The answer is that they shouldn't take the work if they 'profit' isn't high enough.

If it is a sole source contract for his friend then they may be deemed employees covered by the ESA


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·TekSavvy Cable
said by peterboro:

said by A Lurker:

said by peterboro:

I wonder if your friend could work for awhile and then put in an ESA claim to get at least minimum wage?

Pretty sure as a non-employee the standards wouldn't apply. The answer is that they shouldn't take the work if they 'profit' isn't high enough.

If it is a sole source contract for his friend then they may be deemed employees covered by the ESA

I was going to say this. A lot of companies try to make you a contractor as a way of getting around basic requirements of the ESA. If you're found to be doing all or substantially all of your work for that company, then you still might be deemed an employee. That means the company will have to pay minimum wage and contribute to WSIB, EI and CPP for you as well as tax you.
--
Tom

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
said by TLS2000:

I was going to say this. A lot of companies try to make you a contractor as a way of getting around basic requirements of the ESA. If you're found to be doing all or substantially all of your work for that company, then you still might be deemed an employee. That means the company will have to pay minimum wage and contribute to WSIB, EI and CPP for you as well as tax you.

And you go to work for awhile and then break it to them you want your extra money.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

That means the company will have to pay minimum wage and contribute to WSIB, EI and CPP for you as well as tax you.

The feds, the province and WSIB all classify differently. What might be considered an employee by the MOL for ESA purposes might not be considered an employee to the CRA and vice versa.

We have a weird situation where WSIB considers our non-sole source subcontractors employees, but no one else. WSIB can suck balls, useless bunch of twats.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Xstar_Lumini
Minimum wage in Ontario is $10.25 an hour. Your friend would do far better working at some place like Tim Hortons, and at least Tim's has some fringe benefits (depends on the owner). At my Tims, we got to have one free meal per shift, and considering I was making $6.25 an hour at the time, a free meal was a pretty nice perk at the end of your shift. That sort of thing can help a LOT to somebody on a limited income. Our Tims was the exception rather than the rule, though, I know other Tims nearby only gave their staff a mild discount.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

The feds, the province and WSIB all classify differently. What might be considered an employee by the MOL for ESA purposes might not be considered an employee to the CRA and vice versa.

Agreed, looking at the labour website though:

»www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labo ··· 02.shtml

I suspect it would be treated more like a contract for service. Just because the person is only working for the one company could be applied to anyone starting a business. Just because you can't get a second client doesn't necessarily make you an employee of the first one.

I say this because many companies commonly farm out work such as cleaning, snow removal, grass cutting. These are traditionally services. If the terms are as the OP said then most cleaning services wouldn't touch it at that price. Just people who are desperate for cash and can be exploited.


Rifleman
Premium
join:2004-02-09
p1a
reply to Xstar_Lumini
Happens all the time. The job was bid for a price-----the winning bidder hires your female friend for 1/10th of what he is actually making sitting on his ass.
I know a house builder who is a multimillionaire working like this. His dad gave him enough to buy a few cheap lots. This guy knows absolutely nothing about building a house--he just gets the permits and hires guys off the street for cash.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
reply to peterboro
said by peterboro:

I wonder if your friend could work for awhile and then put in an ESA claim to get at least minimum wage?

Sounds like a contract job, so employment standards act don't apply.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
reply to Rifleman
said by Rifleman:

Happens all the time. The job was bid for a price-----the winning bidder hires your female friend for 1/10th of what he is actually making sitting on his ass.
I know a house builder who is a multimillionaire working like this. His dad gave him enough to buy a few cheap lots. This guy knows absolutely nothing about building a house--he just gets the permits and hires guys off the street for cash.

Occasionally too, though, what happens is someone with no experience bids on a large job without taking in account of the costs. So lets say this guy in the story bid on a 10 storey office building, and quoted $15,000/month, not realizing just how much it was. So after costs of supplies he is left with $14,000 per month, paying out $12,500 in sub-contracts, then he has $1,500 for himself to cut cheques, use his time to get more supplies, and hire more sucka's to work for next to nothing.

What happened in Kitchener: The city has a hard time keeping employees to clean up The Aud after events...mostly hockey games and concerts. Issue really is inconsistent work, poor work hours, and it's part time so $14+ an hour plus benefits. The city decided to bid out the work. On the low end was a small company from Milton just cutting their teeth on the type of work, they bid $55,000/year. Now, that's to clean a place at least 60 or 70 times per year, a place that holds 7,500 for hockey. No way they'd be making much more that $6/hour. On the higher end a company that came in at $400,000, they had more experience and likely would not have issues sometime down the road cleaning the place. The city HAS to take lowest bidder, but because the lowest builder failed a couple rules on the contract, everything is still up in the air, because it surprised city officials the huge difference in quotes between companies. 3 were less than $100,000 and 3 were more than $250,000.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

Sukunai
Premium
join:2008-05-07
kudos:1
reply to Xstar_Lumini
Define 'cleaning'.

I've been in the army and I can turn a wreck into surgical room clean with no effort, but it takes time all the same.

I can also pass through a room empty garbage sweep the floor and be out of there so fast if you blink you missed it.

I am not going to treat a room as if I wasn't there the day before after all.

4 hours, I likely could do it in 30 minutes solo if I felt like getting it down.

I've seen some people that couldn't do it in 4 days though.

Biggest reality though, is finding out how much they pay telemarketers. Shit work for decent pay just so long as you don't mind the mind numbing shilling and management that actually thinks they mean a damn thing in the real world outside of the building.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to A Lurker
said by A Lurker:

I suspect it would be treated more like a contract for service. Just because the person is only working for the one company could be applied to anyone starting a business. Just because you can't get a second client doesn't necessarily make you an employee of the first one.

You posted the federal classification which is used for CRA and HRDC (read: EI eligibility) purposes. As I said, CRA, MLO and WSIB all have different criteria to determine classification, and that criteria is not necessarily the same. To the MOL I would argue that they probably would classify as an employee if it was sole source, because the amount of money paid for the hours of work does not equal minimum wage. That would most likely get the WSIB involved the moment they smell blood in the water as they're the biggest bunch of douchebags in the world. Doesn't matter if there is a "contract" that was bid on or whatever, I'd still bet dollars to donuts that the MLO will classify as an employee.

To the CRA they probably wouldn't care so long as taxes are being paid.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to Sukunai
same i can be in and out before anyone even notices i was in the room.

but if the square footage is as big as said it might not be entirely possible to get it done under that time.

but the $1250 a month is a bit of a bitch. you can make that working 6h a day at minimum wage, take home is a little lower but it would be slightly higher once you lose money on the lump with extra crap.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to Xstar_Lumini
On a somewhat related note, Bell recently had to start asking their employees to empty their own waste baskets as a cost cutting measure. They save some money by not having the cleaners do it.

mr weather
Premium
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON
Just wait until they start asking their employees to bring their own toilet paper.
--
"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes


koira
Keep Fighting Michael
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to donoreo
said by donoreo:

On a somewhat related note, Bell recently had to start asking their employees to empty their own waste baskets as a cost cutting measure. They save some money by not having the cleaners do it.

some work places don't have desk side waste baskets. part of the "green" initiative. so you end up with a pile of stuff to sort at a central / shared recycle bin. Paper, plastic, compost etc.