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StumpMan
Premium
join:2001-07-26
Clinton, NC

1 recommendation

reply to Immer

Re: A worthwhile investment...

Several years ago I was leveling a tank, and to be honest, I sucked. And bad. Thought about deleting the tank and walking away for a bit, but the guild master of the guild I was in at the time took me under her wing and pushed me. Every time I was online, she had me tanking dungeons.

It took a while, but I got the hang of tanking. Thanks to her sticking with me and training me.

I try to make it a point in our guild to help out anyone having trouble or needing help with their class. Pay it forward I guess.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Immer
Sites like EJ are part of the newb problem. It as a collection has lots of good data. But somebody just stepping into the game will never know how to process all that data. However they are expected to know how to process it from the first time they can step into an LFR.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Vinceruos_t
On a video net cast I sometimes watch, they described japan as the only place friendlier than Texas.

That does make me curious.
--
»Death Star Petition

Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to Immer
But I will agree that american women suck compared to the rest of the world. :P

Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to Immer
While I do agree that HUMANANITY as a whole has lost a lot of respec and "honor", America is not the problem here. I have traveled all over Europe and a lot of other countries across the world and I can tell you that Americans as a whole are way more helpful, respectful, and generally nicer people then most of the world. People love to just bash Americans as selfish, corrupt, and disrespectful individuals but that is just not the case. Of course we have our issues and lifestyles have changed dramatically over the last hundred years, but in my experiance America IS like Fuedal Japan compared to the vast majority of other countries.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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reply to Vinceruos_t
It's a bit relative. Compared to American society, S.Korean society is quite honor-bound still. Compared to Feudal Japan... S.Korean society is very American.

We've lost sight of respect here. We simultaneously demand others earn our respect while insisting we are entitled to a level of respect for simply being us... but not the us that we have been "that would be judgmental and superficial" but the us we choose to be at any given moment... We have social schizophrenia.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Lothario

join:2009-09-30
Ottawa, ON
reply to Vinceruos_t
Think he means japan, not s.k.

Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to Phantasee
said by Phantasee:

It's all about honor in South Korea. Totally different there. Over here in the US, our honor is our credit score. Over there it's being a decent, respectable human being. Without your honor in S. Korea you are basically blacklisted from society.

This made me Lol. Have you ever been to South Korea? They are some of the most pretentious, "americanized" culture around. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that they are some kind of "Samuri code living" honorable society.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to bTU
yeah, I always take /trade questions straight to /w.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


bTU

join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO
reply to Immer
Glad someone was willing to help him. It can be hard to get help even on US servers. The worst part is I have seen so many elitist attitudes that aren't even justified. People who think they are the best but if you look at their achievements they clear heroic raids in the next xpac. I'm no top player either but the few times I've seen someone ask for an experienced (insert class here) for some advice trade chat blows up with everyone calling him a noob and saying to go look at websites. Websites are fine and can be outdated or contradictory to other sites, and some people just need to have that little extra push from someone talking to them to fully get what is being said.
--
Heghlu'meh qaq jajvam!


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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reply to Josof
It was a pilot program that blizzard did for a while. »Introducing the Guild Mentoring Program

Blizzard picked specific servers, and guilds applied for the pilot program. Seems it turned out well, but we haven't heard of it becoming a regular thing or not.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

Josof

join:2010-10-23
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

I think this is one of the reasons why Blizzard did their Mentor Guild program a few months back. They know what's up... but its up to us to make a difference for these folks.

cool, i never heard about Mentor guilds. do players volunteer their own guilds or does blizzard create mentor guilds on new player servers?
--
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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reply to Morage
He was in a guild, they wouldn't bring him along to do anything. He probably just took the attitude "at least I'm in a guild" and left it at that.

You are correct, though... we have some beaten down folks on all servers. I think this is one of the reasons why Blizzard did their Mentor Guild program a few months back. They know what's up... but its up to us to make a difference for these folks.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Morage

@telecomputing.se
reply to Immer
Its not just Korea were new players or even older players experience mobbing, I think you will find it on every realm to sum extent.
It states that he is an older player throw rather new to the game.
As you get older your reaction times go down and even if you know what your supposed to be doing and have descent gear you find it hard to keep up with the youngsters, I will hit 50 sooner than I would like ((.

What surprised me was that he exposed himself to realm ridicule throw doing random groups and didn't just stick to a close group of friends that knew his limitations and were willing to help him ie hide in a guild like probably a lot in his position do. I think we have a couple in my guild, nice ppl but struggling and needing a lot of coaching.
I would not be surprised if to a lot of players young and old that LFR and LFG is pointless and after maybe one or to goes at it would never dream of pressing that button again just because of the atmosphere they meet each time. Not every one has Kevlar skin.

Mobbing probably dose more damage to the game than any of the so called competitor games.
It would be interesting to know how many invisible players blizz actually has (players not doing random BGs LFR and LFG).

Josof

join:2010-10-23
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to Phantasee
said by Phantasee:

It's all about honor in South Korea. Totally different there. Over here in the US, our honor is our credit score. Over there it's being a decent, respectable human being. Without your honor in S. Korea you are basically blacklisted from society.

I respect the honor thing but what tripped me out was this guy was infamous for low deeps and ultimately shunned by a "whole" server.

It would be different if he was a child/adolescent then i could understand it better but this is a grown man feeling the need to apologize to kids possibly about his performance in a video game. Again i admit im off base because i dont understand Korean gaming culture. Growing up i had a korean martial arts teacher and like you mentioned, teachers in Korea are to be respected. i learned the hard way lol.
--
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
reply to Immer
Also school teachers there are treated with utmost respect by students. Oh, and the womenz. Whole different story.


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Carpie
said by Carpie:

said by Phantasee:

Without your honor in S. Korea you are basically blacklisted from society.

That doesn't sound very honorable.

Never said it was fair =P


Carpie

join:2012-10-19
united state
kudos:5
reply to Phantasee
said by Phantasee:

Without your honor in S. Korea you are basically blacklisted from society.

That doesn't sound very honorable.


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
reply to Josof
It's all about honor in South Korea. Totally different there. Over here in the US, our honor is our credit score. Over there it's being a decent, respectable human being. Without your honor in S. Korea you are basically blacklisted from society.

Josof

join:2010-10-23
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to Immer
I sympathize with the guy but Korean gaming is a bit over the top. Its just my opinion but this type of drama over a video game is horrible.

I shouldnt really judge their gaming style over there because i lack experience with Korean culture or Korean gaming culture but again, "why so serious?"

2 cents
--
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to Immer
Thank you.

It is amazing as to how a game can come to life at times.

I've played a few games where the players formed "mentoring" guilds. They would hang out in newbie toons to recruit the new toons. Then they would assist them with quests, finances and equipment. Kinda like "fast" tracking the toon.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Pollux7777
I know what you mean. There are times when I start to think I'm doing okay... and then reading this story quickly brings up a list of recent events where I know I lost my cool...

I'm really glad you guys enjoyed the article as much as I did.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.

Wishflthinkn

join:2011-01-27
Bruceton Mills, WV
reply to Immer
Well, I remember my noob days b/c I am still in them. I love the game but, I for one can relate to the damage that can be caused by an elitists mentality in a community. Many of us know most of the general knowledge in the game but contrary to trade chat , few of us know it all. When teachers teach a lesson they realize that some students refuse to learn, that is not why they teach. It is for the ones that will learn and go on to do great things themselves. This game is long on ragers and short on mentors. Which do you want to be known as? Breaking in to a raiding team or community is difficult. Post IL and Exp. Hard to get in if you have only done the LFR side of it. If you are a slow starter and get to LFR/pugging late in an xpac u learn what real pain is, nothing to learn there LOL. By all means player should prepare themselves as much as possible. But you do not learn to ride a bike watching a video. Wanna be on the road with peeps that learned to drive from a u-tube video, Not me. Not preaching. Just stating facts. If we want to make the community better, be it your guild, server etc, then it starts with you and I. Lend a hand and maybe you will make a friend. Enjoying where I am at and who I am with. Did I mention I am a noob.


Pollux7777

join:2010-02-16
Saint Paul, MN
reply to Immer
Touching story. As I read I found myself remembering times when I have been rather short tempered with random pugs in LFD and feeling guilty about it. I consider myself to be a rather patient and friendly person in real life, so it seems that much stranger to me that I can be such an amazing jerk in-game sometimes. It's definitely something I need to be mindful of.

Good read, Immer.
--
Polluxx - LvL 90 Human Warrior - (US) Ravencrest


Endbringer

join:2012-10-07
Fishers, IN
reply to Immer
when he said "I just hide myself around mountains and corners of big cities" my heart sunk...poor guy, im glad i have this forum to help me because i also am noobish


Redawg81
T3h N3wb

join:2001-08-04
Jacksonville, FL
kudos:2
reply to Immer
Great post. Nice to see someone stick up for someone else!! I too am sick of elitists, I remember my n00b days. Reminds me of a parody!!

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojWGCeXebsQ


R3d


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer
So over there all raids are GDKP?

Oh and good read.


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
reply to Immer
Interesting read indeed. Thanks.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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1 edit
I really like this story, and decided to share.
said by WoWInsider :
Server outcast in South Korea rekindles WoW community
by Olivia Grace Feb 13th 2013 at 1:00PM
Server outcast in South Korea
We were all noobs once


There's a forum thread, which was posted on the US forums a few days back, where a player tells rather a sad tale. It's a translation of a thread which has caused visible shifts on Korean servers, where players are starting to change, to become more sympathetic, and to care a little bit more about others. The poster asserts that, thanks in part to separate 10- and 25-man lockouts, and far shorter raid resets, Korea's servers were growing ever more competitive and elitist.

The story, much abridged, goes that, on Zul'Jin (KR), a warrior was looking for a group. He whispered the OP of the Korean community thread on the story, asking for a spot in a PuG raid the OP was advertizing. This warrior was renowned on the server for his low DPS, so low, in fact, that nobody would bring him to a raid. The OP had previously taken him to Terrace of Endless Spring, and the warrior was incredibly grateful, but the warrior's 30k DPS had meant that the OP decided against bringing him to another 10-man group. The OP's PuG raid never happened, so, as he felt bad for the warrior's situation, decided to help him. The warrior was doing it all wrong, gemming, reforging, enchanting, and as they chatted the OP was struck by the warrior's politeness and gratitude, as well as learning that the warrior was an older guy trying to escape from an unpleasant real life into WoW. The OP realized how uncommon this friendliness was in recent times, and how elitist and unfriendly the South Korean WoW community had become. He remembered that they were all noobs once, and made a post asking his fellow WoW players to be kinder, more generous, and less elitist.

The result of this has reportedly been a seismic shift in South Korea's WoW community, and an outpouring of support, not to mention several blue posts on the topic. Players have even started organizing "Mentor Raids" to help others get to grips with their class and with the fights. WoW's community is one of the big things that makes the game great, the help and support and friendliness that comes out of a digital world. If you haven't read the original thread, you should. We were all noobs once.
So, I decided I'd look for the forum post... here it is:

said by BlizzardForum :

First of all, a little background:

In South Korea, World of Warcraft's popularity has been certainly waning down. It is nowhere to be found in Top 10 game rankings in terms of usage in PC cafes, and it is a well-known fact that most of the servers are suffering from severe lack of populations. Other games such as League of Legends have been rapidly growing, and Mists of Pandaria expansion did not help much; if it did not hurt in fact.

Some Korean WoW players have pointed out that one of the factors for such decrease in player number could be that Korean players are getting too competitive and hard-hearted. I am not 100% sure about this, but their servers seem to have different lockouts for 10 mans and 25 mans, and I think, at one point, their servers were resetting every 3-4 days, which give them more chances to raid. Such changes have forced many Korean players to be as hardcore as they can be, leaving no room to breathe and forgive others for their mistakes. Many new players, especially people who just started playing WoW (surprisingly), could not adapt to such situations because no one would help them understand the game better. And the whole community was getting more elitist in general, with most of the players playing from the original WoW, since WoW has been around almost 10 years. And the whole topic of 'bullying' and 'cyber-bullying' has been a major issue in a Korean society.

Then THIS happened.

Original post in "Inven" community (in Korean language): »www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.p···4&l=2933

There have been thousands of replies and reactions to this incident, and apparently there have been visible changes in servers, and the whole community have asked themselves: What happened to the good ol' WoW we enjoyed?

Below is my translation of the whole incident and several posts related to it. Not perfectly literal translation though.




Thread: He needed attention and help... The story of Zul'jin server 'outcast' warrior.

In the afternoon of February 3rd, a player who identified himself as a PUG raid leader/organizer of Zul'jin server posted a thread titled "Zul'jin server outcast", and it has been the hottest topic in the Korean WoW community.

Below is the thread:



Sub-Thread: Zul'jin server outcast

Hello, I am one of the many players who have been playing WoW for 8 years.
I am writing this because I had quite an incident today.
I'm not sure where to start... I will just state what comes to my mind. Please read.

One fine Saturday afternoon, I was organizing a PUG raid.
There was a whisper.
"DPS Warrior, ilvl 496, I'd like to go!"
Hmm... he was quite infamous in our server. DPS below tanks. "The Hole". He was well-known by raid leaders for his lack of skills which eventually break apart any raids.
I told him that it was to be a 10-man raid, and gently said no.

"Well... sir, you are not intentionally avoiding me, right...? I was really thankful when you brought me to ToES last time..."
Yes... I brought him to ToES once, without knowing about him, and he did 30k DPS to the last boss. I could never forget him.
But, seeing him saying he was thankful, I suddenly felt bad and sorry.
I was like... !@#$... Was I one of the snobs who would calculate and bring only maniacs to make an easy raid...? I felt really bad, so I gave him a reply.

I was not able to gather up a full raid anyways that day, so I was able to talk to him for a long time.
He was saying: "I really want to do better DPS, but I don't know how to do that... Even if I join a raid, I don't qualify to get any gold (Translator: In all Korean servers, they pay gold to loot items, and players who didn't get any loot divide up the gold in the end, if their DPS/HPS qualify), so I can't get much gold... which again affects my gear settings. I can't join any raid nowadays. No one would bring me. I whisper, no one answers... Please help... My current guild wouldn't even help me... Please."

And I felt really really really bad. I inspected his gears. He was using Stam gems, wrong gems on red sockets, wrong enchants and everything... And the whole reforging was just totally wrong.
After an hour of trying to organize a raid, I just called it, and I was on GameTalk (Korean Vent) with him to teach him gear settings, rotations, and basic DPS strategies.
You know you don't even get "Yes" on the GameTalk nowadays?
He was answering "Yes" to every sentence I was saying, like he was spamming. He was really learning.
I wanted to bring him on to my guild, so I can keep him closely to help him as much as I can.
Then I never expected my guildies would object.

"Brother... Please don't ginvite him, please..."
"Oh, if he's coming, I'm out of this guild. Sorry."
He was that infamous, sucked too bad in many dungeons and raids. So everyone in the server knew him, and hated him.
And I didn't know my guildies were on the same boat.
Still, I asked him to join my guild, and he was like, "Is that really OK??" "Thank you so much... I will speak to my current GM first and go over there."
He was saying "thank you" multiple times, and gquitted. Then, because of my guildies' objections, I ended up not being able to ginvite him.
I didn't know what to say, and he first said: "Oh... There are people there who don't like me... That's OK! "
And I realized that he knows he was hated by many. I really didn't want him to know, but he already knew. I was even more sorry.

All I could do was just letting him know more about the game, and encouraging him to change his character name.
I don't think I helped him a lot, but he said thank you so many times, and I still feel really bad.

All my fellow players, I had so much fun playing WoW.
But one day, because of random LFG dungeons and LFR raids, we didn't have to hang out with people in the server any more. And the game got old. And people have been saying about WoW: "A game for only maniacs and hardcores. Noobs not allowed. Nothing humane about it."
Yes... I did feel that.
If you went to army, you'd know that there are all kinds of people in this world.
This guy was different too.
It took him good 4 hours to understand a few things I taught him.
He was not as fast as you are in this game. He was not as game-savvy as we are.
I even got to know some stuff about his personal life and his family situation, and there were a lot of problems.
He was old, and he was just trying to have fun playing WoW, because he was stressed from the real world out there.
He was just trying to do his best, but he was hated by many fellow players in the server, without getting any help. And I felt really bad.

If there is any warrior who can help him, please whisper me.
And people, please do not hate and bully bad players too much... Some of them are not intentionally being bad.
There are certain jackasses and losers who are intentionally being bad, but not everyone.
There are some people who really need attention and help to be better, like this person.
I will wait for your response.




This thread has been the top thread for this week, and the actual 'outcast' warrior posted a thread himself, saying 'sorry' to his fellow players in Zul'jin server:




Sub-Thread: I would like to apologize and ask for your forgiveness... I know it's late, but can you give me one more chance?

Hello, I was reading the original thread and I thought I should post one myself to speak to all of you... I am that 'outcast warrior'.
I know that I wasted much of your time in many raids and dungeons, because I was bad.
In all the raids I joined, my DPS was below any tank, and I would really like to apologize to all players who had to suffer because of my poor play.
Many people have been posting encouraging words to me, and I wanted to say something here too, so here I am.

I am indeed a bad player, as you all know.
Many people in my last guild explained how to DPS, great websites, forums, and guides, but I could not understand what they were saying. I was reading up all the posts in Inven community, but I could not get better. I didn't even know how to make macros.
WoW is my first online game ever, and it was just so difficult for me to understand certain things.
And the raid leader, who posted the original thread, taught me how to DPS, how to install add-ons like DBM, how to reforge, and how to set up gears.
And it was totally my fault that I didn't get to learn those things all this time. And I deserve to be bullied.
All my friends in Zul'jin server, I know you all hate me, but when I log on and see any of you, I really feel like all of you are my friends... In fact, I see you more often than my friends in real life... I know many of you hate me and blocked me, but please forgive me once.
Again, this was my first online game... And I made your raids 'hell' because I didn't know anything about the encounters. I apologize for that.

Can you please give me one more chance to play with you again? If I make same mistakes again and again, without fixing anything, then I will only do quests and LFRs.
I know you don't even want to see my face, but I just like being in a community. I know you do not want to see me around, so I just hide myself around mountains or corners of big cities...
And I feel so thankful to raid leaders and raiders who brought me onboard time to time... But then I was only a burden to them. I am truly sorry. Please do not hate me so much...

I really want to play with you and have fun. I know this post is not enough to forgive me, but I really want to show you that I have changed and will keep changing.
Happy New Year, and if you forgive me, I will be a better player I promise.
And for the last time, thank you to all raid leaders who tried to work with me, and sorry...



And even more players replied. Not just WoW players, but players from all different communities (Diablo, Starcraft, you name it) were checking the thread and posting encouraging words.

Many people cried. Many people remembered what it was like to play as newbies. Many people questioned: "Why are we not having fun any more? What happened to our good ol' WoW? What happened to us?"

People started talking about how much they sucked when they first played this game, and shared how brutal and non-forgiving they are to other players nowadays, leaving no room for mistakes or lack of skills.

I almost cried reading all those posts and threads. I myself was a newbie once. Every person starts somewhere. I remember when I was tanking on my warrior with Hypnotic Blade (spell dagger). I remember my first raid and how bad I was. I remember how many people have helped me and encouraged me to play this game on the level I am in now.

This whole incident has been a huge impact to the whole Korean WoW community that has been waning down. In many servers, there have been movements to create "Mentor Raids", in which raid leaders will give detailed guidance and mentor players to understand the raid and their classes better. It is such a positive change. And I hope this whole incident makes a positive change that will last for a long time in many people's hearts.

I remembered: This is why I play a MMORPG. This is why I play WoW. And I just wanted to share with you, so sorry for such long post.

--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.