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urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to JohnInSJ

Re: [WIN8] What software for getting start menu back?

said by JohnInSJ:

Microsoft does listen to its users. It makes changes based on what most of them want.

Based on what I've seen in the latest offerings of Microsoft, it seems that this stopped being the case after Bill Gates stepped away from the company and is instead making changes based on what it wants to force its users to use.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

That's my impression too. At that point they began removing useful features and radically moving products in directions, that the company considered was better for their bottom line, ignoring what the users actually needed in the process. The first steps in that direction we saw in Vista and then in Office, where users were forced to accept ribbon (despite of the massive feedback, asking for an option there). The pure marketing ruling of the company has been started...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

said by JohnInSJ:

Microsoft does listen to its users. It makes changes based on what most of them want.

Based on what I've seen in the latest offerings of Microsoft, it seems that this stopped being the case after Bill Gates stepped away from the company and is instead making changes based on what it wants to force its users to use.

You're failing to consider the customers it is losing to other systems which don't look like Windows/Office from 10 years ago. The installed base is always the bane of progress.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by JohnInSJ:

said by urbanriot:

said by JohnInSJ:

Microsoft does listen to its users. It makes changes based on what most of them want.

Based on what I've seen in the latest offerings of Microsoft, it seems that this stopped being the case after Bill Gates stepped away from the company and is instead making changes based on what it wants to force its users to use.

You're failing to consider the customers it is losing to other systems which don't look like Windows/Office from 10 years ago. The installed base is always the bane of progress.

Sorry, but there is no way that one can consider any of this as "progress"...


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by Kerodo:

Sorrym, but there is no way that one can consider any of this as "progress"...

Sure one can - if they're willing to let go of some old stuff, and learn new stuff. It's really not that radical a change.

A common misconception on the Internet: I don't like X means no one likes X.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Kerodo:

Sorrym, but there is no way that one can consider any of this as "progress"...

Sure one can - if they're willing to let go of some old stuff, and learn new stuff. It's really not that radical a change.

A common misconception on the Internet: I don't like X means no one likes X.

For me, progress implies improvement. Based on general user reaction to 8 and all that goes with it, I'd say that many don't find much improvement or progress there.

I'm sure MS defines progress as movement towards a goal, and I have no doubt they have their goals with 8. But that doesn't necessarily coincide with what the public wants or needs...


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by Kerodo:

But that doesn't necessarily coincide with what some of the public wants or needs...

This.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Kerodo:

But that doesn't necessarily coincide with what some of the public wants or needs...

This.

I realize that we just disagree here, but all I would say is, just take a poll and ask users everywhere if they do or don't like 8. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority DON'T like it...

But I'm sure you will disagree..


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

said by Kerodo:

I realize that we just disagree here, but all I would say is, just take a poll and ask users everywhere if they do or don't like 8. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority DON'T like it...
But I'm sure you will disagree..

Well, I'm one person that does like Windows 8. You can read more about my experience here

»[WIN8] Well I finally made the jump to Windows 8

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Kerodo:

But that doesn't necessarily coincide with what some of the public wants or needs...

This.

I realize that we just disagree here, but all I would say is, just take a poll and ask users everywhere if they do or don't like 8. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority DON'T like it...

But I'm sure you will disagree..

If the poll were of DSLR users or Apple bloggers, no - I agree totally you're right.

You really have no way of knowing what the "vast majority" like or don't like. Neither do I. The error is always in making assumptions.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

You're failing to consider the customers it is losing to other systems which don't look like Windows/Office from 10 years ago. The installed base is always the bane of progress.

... what, like Mac OS, which has had the same stale look since 2001?

Seemingly unrelated, Mac OS market share went from 1% to more than 5% since 2001...


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by urbanriot:

said by JohnInSJ:

You're failing to consider the customers it is losing to other systems which don't look like Windows/Office from 10 years ago. The installed base is always the bane of progress.

... what, like Mac OS, which has had the same stale look since 2001?

Actually GREAT example - in ML, OSX is beginning to take on many UI elements from iOS. Once they release touch, it will be nearly indistinguishable.

Oh, and if you think OSX looks the same as it did in 2001, you must not use it much.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

Well it's probably not the first time you're wrong... One of the four monitors in front of me is displaying the desktop of my Mac Pro.

Considering the context of this conversation is the Windows interface, since Cheetah, nothing drastic has changed concerning the usability of the operating system outside of evolutionary changes... which is exactly the same experience with Microsoft's Windows XP -> Vista -> Windows 7.

Jaguar added fancy graphics, like Vista, Panther added Finder and their version of fast user switching, changes you could argue came with Vista / 7, Tiger added some further add-ons. Leopard tweaked the look. etc., etc., etc.

Again, Mac OS made evolutionary improvements to the interface and increased their market share and sales.

Microsoft made evolutionary improvements to their interface until Windows 8, where they drastically disrupted their evolution to give people what they arrogantly insist is better for them. This is not an evolutionary improvement, it's an outright change that could be argued goes against evolution.


IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:1
reply to signmeuptoo

Microsoft see a humongous market out there where they have almost no presence: cell phones and tablets.

They figure if they can get their desktop computer market to adapt an interface that they can duplicate in that un-tapped market it will be a natural extension for most users and it'll allow them to take over the mobile device market like they own the desktop computer market.

It's a bold move, not without it's merits, but there is also a very real risk of their desktop users getting completely turned off that interface, which means they would not only fail to take over the mobile market but they would also lose desktop market.

They've been bold in the past, and largely succeeded, despite everyone else predicting their failure. The stakes are much higher now though, and only time will tell how well that strategy will succeed.

In the mean time, I hate Windows 8



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

1 recommendation

reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Well it's probably not the first time you're wrong...

Not even close to the first time. However, you be sure and check back real soon. Like this fall, maybe.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


chachazz
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:9
Reviews:
·TELUS
reply to signmeuptoo

FYI, Start Menu X Pro license is free today on Giveaway of the Day...
»de.giveawayoftheday.com/

Dennis Nazarenko - OrdinarySoft - he's been making Start Menu Alternatives for years (Vista Start Menu / Start Menu 7)



signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to signmeuptoo

Well, about to turn in, but a reflection: After my 3rd day with my new laptop (well, a couple hours with it), I am starting to warm up to laptop use AND Win8, though WITH the change as discussed here. I discovered that the touchpad on my new computer is not as flaky as I thought and that the reason it was doing "stuff" was because it is a gesture enable touchpad. And, though I am still learning the gestures (I'm a slow learner), they are quite cool. In fact, coming back to the desktop here, and my mouse, felt disconcerting afterwards.

But Metro is still too messy and sloppy, no rhyme or reason to the tiles, they need to improve that, and color scheme the tile clusters to different themes for easier browsing. Right now, it feels like an assault on my eyes...
--
Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.



dib22

join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO
reply to signmeuptoo

Another vote for Start8 here.

The thing that annoys me the most with windows 8 is the apps.

Don't misunderstand I love the ifkam on a tablet... it makes sense... I love it on my hdtv... crisp large very browsable with a remote control... but on a desktop...

why is there no windowed mode on every app on an operating system called windows?

They should call it Fullscreen 8 when it comes to those apps.

I'm baffled with the lack of reasoning.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

2 edits

1 recommendation

reply to signmeuptoo

Did anyone mention RetroUI,....?

RetroUI apparently also allows Metro / New UI apps to run windowed and sizable on the Windows 8 desktop,....

»retroui.com/

***edit***

I'm also one that doesn't have a problem running Windows 8 Pro without any modification.


Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
reply to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

I realize that we just disagree here, but all I would say is, just take a poll and ask users everywhere if they do or don't like 8. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority DON'T like it...

Poll results are in. Sales of Win8 are actually trailing sales of Vista by a significant margin:

»www.zdnet.com/five-reasons-why-w···0012104/

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by Glen T:

said by Kerodo:

I realize that we just disagree here, but all I would say is, just take a poll and ask users everywhere if they do or don't like 8. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority DON'T like it...

Poll results are in. Sales of Win8 are actually trailing sales of Vista by a significant margin:

»www.zdnet.com/five-reasons-why-w···0012104/

Yep, I am not surprised....


Nhbass
Upside Down Jeep
Premium
join:2001-01-15
Nashua, NH
reply to signmeuptoo

Another vote for Start8. I also recommend it to my customers who have 8 and dislike the interface.



signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5

Why "Start 8" over, say, "Classic Shell"? I am using the latter and I wondered what the former provides that the latter does not.



aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to Glen T

Wow!! I guess that will teach M$ an expensive lesson...

quote:
Windows 8's failure is actually greater than it appears. The tablet and phone markets in 2007 were next to non-existent. Now, in a market where NPD expects tablets to out sell notebooks by year's end, neither Windows 8 nor its cousins Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 even appear on NetApplication's mobile and tablet reports for February 2013. How bad is that? Android 1.6, with is tiny 0.02% of the market, does make the list.
Personally, I didn't think it would be *that* bad because if you ignore the disastrous GUI (which can be remedied) under the hood Win8 is actually a pretty decent OS, although from most end users' practical stand point, it doesn't have much (or any) extra over Win7.

Disclaimer: I have two $40 licenses, but only one installed (with ClassicShell) on a barely used media center PC.

--
Wacky Races 2012!


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by urbanriot:

Well it's probably not the first time you're wrong...

Not even close to the first time. However, you be sure and check back real soon. Like this fall, maybe.

I agree with urbanriot, no major changes with OSX since I first bought one, with leopard. That was 4 years ago. They did add launch pad, which is iOS like, but I never have used it. MS added Metro, which can be likened to launch pad, but no real way to go to the regular interface, and regular interface isn't default anymore, and in fact, non-existent.

MS took a step back. Keep your options. Nothing wrong with their old start button. People liked it, they should kept it in their lineup.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to signmeuptoo

said by signmeuptoo:

Why "Start 8" over, say, "Classic Shell"? I am using the latter and I wondered what the former provides that the latter does not.

The differences are slight but Start8 is more like the real Microsoft start menu while ClassicShell has some differences that can be annoying if you really want the exact same start menu experience. Mind you, ClassicShell gives you some additional options to enhance your Windows experience so there's tradeoffs in both directions. Well, that and it's free.


signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast

Classic shell has both a programs AND an apps menu, does Start 8 do that, because I like that idea. I don't need exactly what I had with 7, more I just need something other than metro for when metro throws me for a loop, which is just about every day, sadly.
--
Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.



OverBurn

join:2004-02-21
Greenwood, IN
reply to signmeuptoo

I'm not paying for a feature that should be there. It's not the few bucks it's being forced to. (Yes, I know Classic Shell Is Free)

Win8 is like buying a new car and instead of the steering wheel that has always been there has suddenly been replaced with vice grips attached to the end. The company says just deal with it or buy your own damn steering wheel.


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

Because now they want to use the same parts from motorcycles, they want to produce too...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

said by OZO:

Because now they want to use the same parts from motorcycles, they want to produce too...

It's true. Motorcycle manufacturers are losing market share because their main customer base is aging out. So to try and entice new users, they are coming out with new motorcycles with automatic tranmissions.

But if this was Microsoft selling cars and motorcycles, they would be removing two wheels from their cars, so that people would be forced to learn how to balance on two wheels and then buy MS motorcycles because they are a lot lighter than their two wheeled cars. And this after building the OS equivalent of the Hummer.