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peggypwr1

join:2003-10-06
Fremont, CA

Carniva Cruise Ship hell ride

»www.cnn.com/2013/02/14/travel/cr ··· qus-area

I'm by no means an expert, but why are these fire happening more frequently (or they at lease seem to be)? Don't these ships have a backup system to help with toilets, A/C, lighting etc.

And why can't they chopper in food?

Carnival is well known, but every time something goes wrong, there are caught off guard.


Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Carnival is the ValuJet of cruise lines. You get what you pay for.
--
If you can't open it, you don't own it.


bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2
reply to peggypwr1
I don't get how there is "urine and feces streaming in the halls". Nothing but water, as far as the eye can see in any direction, and people are defecating in the halls. I mean there must be some reason they can't hang their ass over the side of the boat or they'd do it, right? Or at least in a receptacle and then throw it over...but I'm not seeing it. Can anyone enlighten me?


Voxxjin
Made of Hamburger
Premium
join:2010-01-13
Dupont, WA
My only guess is that when the toilets stopped working in the cabins, people kept using them anyways.
--
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
I was on an Amtrak train that had a similar problem with the toilets.


jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
reply to peggypwr1
said by peggypwr1:

I'm by no means an expert, but why are these fire happening more frequently (or they at lease seem to be)?

They aren't. It's just human nature to think so.

Similarly, the weather patterns aren't different, people aren't smarter or dumber, crime isn't more or less common.

It's just that our perspectives change as we age and our memory plays tricks on us. We assume that we're living in the end times (just as our parents and grandparents worried about the future). Just part of mortality.

davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to bionicRod
People were not defecating in the passageways. The sanitary waste system is vacuum powered. With no electricity the vacuum pumps cannot work. When waste gasses build up in a piping system aboard a rolling ship, you are going to get eruptions out of the lowest pressure points which are the latrines, the weak pipe joints, and the weak pipe sections. If you try to defecate over the side on a rolling ship, you are probably going to hit the side of the ship much more often than you will the ocean. The crew did hand out plastic bags for human waste.


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to bionicRod
Could be illegal to dump raw sewage into the water ways.
Supposedly they aren't supposed to dump their trash over board any longer either.

davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:3
reply to peggypwr1
The ships have backup electricity generation for critical communications, navigation, and some safety systems. The real problem seems to be lousy engineering and design of systems in the area of isolating redundant systems, so that the catastrophic failure of one system does not create enough collateral damage to cause the other similar systems to fail catastrophically. You really have to give up space on a ship to truly get significant damage isolation protection. This apparently was not done on this family of ships.

Food was brought over from other Carnival ships, contract ships hired by Carnival, and and a helicopter. It does sound as though they could have used some large amounts of USA MREs)Meals Ready to Eat, instead of having people stand in line while the staff was trying to reheat or cook food. The big problem with MREs is the need for clean water to use with the flameless ration heaters. 4000+ liters of water for each meal is a lot of water to supply in addition to the MREs. It amounts to about 12,000lbs of water that has to be transported aboard. If you had a CH-47, CH-53, or similar capability helicopter you might be able to transfer that many MREs and that much water in a few trips from close by land or from a suitable ship. Those are not readily available in the commercial market.


Corp Oinker

@sbcglobal.net
reply to peggypwr1
This is what happens when you skimp on maintenance.

But who cares, a corporations only allegiance is to their stock holders.


bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2
reply to davidhoffman
Thanks davidhoffman See Profile!


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
reply to Cabal
said by Cabal:

Carnival is the ValuJet of cruise lines. You get what you pay for.

Not to disagree, but note also that Carnival encompasses 10 cruise brands and controls a combined 50% of the market.

Another fun fact: ValuJet changed their name to AirTran and nobody noticed. Now they're part of Southwest.


tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
Numquam oblitus
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to peggypwr1


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL

1 edit
When the ship first broke down and they said you have live on here for 4 days shitting in bags I would have asked to use the sat phone and called a charter boat or a friend with a boat to come pick me up.
If they would not let me use the phone to make such a call, I would have just "slipped" over the railing and let the coast guard pick me up and take me to shore.

The sad part is they ended up giving everyone full money back + $500 extra. Instead of that $500 extra they could have just used that money to unload the people to several other charter boats on day one and taken them straight back to galveston instead of torturing them for 4 days.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
reply to davidhoffman
said by davidhoffman:

The ships have backup electricity generation for critical communications, navigation, and some safety systems. The real problem seems to be lousy engineering and design of systems in the area of isolating redundant systems, so that the catastrophic failure of one system does not create enough collateral damage to cause the other similar systems to fail catastrophically. You really have to give up space on a ship to truly get significant damage isolation protection. This apparently was not done on this family of ships.

Food was brought over from other Carnival ships, contract ships hired by Carnival, and and a helicopter. It does sound as though they could have used some large amounts of USA MREs)Meals Ready to Eat, instead of having people stand in line while the staff was trying to reheat or cook food. The big problem with MREs is the need for clean water to use with the flameless ration heaters. 4000+ liters of water for each meal is a lot of water to supply in addition to the MREs. It amounts to about 12,000lbs of water that has to be transported aboard. If you had a CH-47, CH-53, or similar capability helicopter you might be able to transfer that many MREs and that much water in a few trips from close by land or from a suitable ship. Those are not readily available in the commercial market.

You can use dirty water or even sea water with an MRE to heat it up.
You dont need to use any water to heat it and can just eat the MRE at room temp.


tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
Numquam oblitus
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

The sad part is they ended up giving everyone full money back + $500 extra. Instead of that $500 extra they could have just used that money to unload the people to several other charter boats on day one and taken them straight back to galveston instead of torturing them for 4 days.

Don't forget the "a future cruise credit equal to the amount paid for this voyage" in addition to the above. How many people do you think will use it?
--
***ATMFAQ***DIFAQ***Kitchen Sink***


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to Oh_No
The issue with a charter boat is transferring people to the charter safely not only that - but a charter would need to be one hell of the big boat to unload over 4K people in any amount of time

Not like the people could just walk over to the charter. It is also very unlikely a charter would have taken the job due to the liability alone.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
reply to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

The sad part is they ended up giving everyone full money back + $500 extra. Instead of that $500 extra they could have just used that money to unload the people to several other charter boats on day one and taken them straight back to galveston instead of torturing them for 4 days.

I don't think you've fully thought this through. First of all, I suspect there simply isn't that much unused charter capacity available concentrated anywhere in the world, even in the Gulf. Supposing there was, it would require many smaller boats and likely would take nearly as long as it did to just tow the cruise ship back to port. We're talking about several thousand people here. Each one must be accounted for upon landfall, and additionally must go through US customs. And you would then have to somehow match up all the passenger's cargo and luggage with them back at shore, because they wouldn't be wasting space on the charters for anything other than people -- yet another customs nightmare. I think they made the right decision.

said by cyclonred :

Not like the people could just walk over to the charter.

Actually, as funny as it sounds, they could just walk over to the charter. Cruise ships are equipped to handle just such a thing because some destination ports are not large enough to handle massive vessels and passengers must be tendered to shore. Most ships have a little dock, or stairs, or a bridge, or all of the above that folds out of the side to facilitate this.


printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Choice Cable TV
·Coqui/PRTC
reply to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

The sad part is they ended up giving everyone full money back + $500 extra. Instead of that $500 extra they could have just used that money to unload the people to several other charter boats on day one and taken them straight back to galveston instead of torturing them for 4 days.

The big question here is if there was enough capacity in oceangoing vessels to evacuate the 4,200 people on-board this ship on such short notice? The closest they could have done to do this was to get a ship like Carnival Magic (which also sails from Galveston), remove it from its schedule in the middle of its current voyage (meaning it would likely need to sail back a couple of days to its home port) drop off all guests (and refund their expenses), drop off something like half of its crew (so that it can pick the 4,200 people on Triumph without exceeding its lifeboat capacity), sail for one full day to the location where Carnival Triumph was drifting and then transfer 4,200 people from one ship to the other using small tender boats or life boats in the open seas with one ship drifting aimlessly and without power. It would have taken probably just as long to get the rescue ship out there and would put the passengers at risk.

Both USCG and Carnival said it was safer for people to remain aboard the ship than trying to transfer in the high seas. Remember this ship was left stranded in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico, not close to shore. A ship this big is only abandoned if there is more risky to remain on board (such as major fire or sinking ship).

Carnival has many more ships but I used Carnival Magic for the example because it sails from the same home port and is one of just three ships that are bigger enough in capacity that could take the entire crew and passengers from a ship like Carnival Triumph.


printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Choice Cable TV
·Coqui/PRTC

1 recommendation

reply to pike
said by pike:

said by cyclonred :

Not like the people could just walk over to the charter.

Actually, as funny as it sounds, they could just walk over to the charter. Cruise ships are equipped to handle just such a thing because some destination ports are not large enough to handle massive vessels and passengers must be tendered to shore. Most ships have a little dock, or stairs, or a bridge, or all of the above that folds out of the side to facilitate this.

The bigger cruise ships like Carnival Triumph actually carry a couple of tender boats which also double as lifeboars. However, tendering close to the shore and often in protected waterways from a ship that can drop anchor or remain stationary using its thrusters is hardly the same as a dead ship drifting in the high seas and deep water.

They did trasfer food from other Carnival ship that came alongside but it is not the same to transfer a few tons of cargo than transfer 4,200 people. Or even the two medical evacuations that took place while waiting for the tugs. In that case it was more risky to remain on the ship than to transfer to another ship. Despite what many people think about safety and maintenance, passenger, crew and ship safety come first. Otherwise the ship would not be considered seaworthy.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to pike
quote:
Actually, as funny as it sounds, they could just walk over to the charter.
I don't think you thought this thru fully....
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


AndandoPaleo

join:2012-06-21
outer limits
reply to peggypwr1
To compound some travelers misery, their bus broke down going home. Let the lawsuits begin.
--
ancient walking one


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
I believe one has been already filed - Indeed it has: »abcnews.go.com/Travel/carnival-c ··· 18509079
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


bionicRod
Funkier than a mohair disco ball.
Premium
join:2009-07-06
united state
kudos:2
One can only imagine the amount of lawyers waiting for them to get off the boat. I'm not sure I'd sue. I'm sure it was hot and stinky and not fun at all. But they already got their money back, 500 smackers, and a free future cruise (which I would be disinclined to take, of course). How much more are they entitled to in damages?


printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Choice Cable TV
·Coqui/PRTC
reply to peggypwr1
The cruise contract has a ton of things you are agreeing to including Carnival not assuming responsibility under many circumstances. They also compensated passengers way beyond what the contract says which would have been a refund for the portion not sailed (not much in this case given it was a sea day prior to disembark). Lawsuits may come but we can bet most will get nothing. If the investigation later reveals negligence by Carnival or the ship builder (which would then bring back the Carnival Splendor incident 2 years ago) then things will change.

I have sailed with Carnival twice and have read the contract almost fully.


printscreen

join:2003-11-01
Juana Diaz, PR
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Choice Cable TV
·Coqui/PRTC
reply to peggypwr1
Click for full size
downloadTicket Contract.pdf 119,455 bytes
Carnival Ticket Contract
Attached is the contract from my last cruise and whatever was in place in July 2011. It might be slightly different now. The important sections are 11, 12 and 13.


Voxxjin
Made of Hamburger
Premium
join:2010-01-13
Dupont, WA

1 recommendation

reply to peggypwr1
I wonder how many people had travel insurance?
--
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
said by Voxxjin:

I wonder how many people had travel insurance?

i thought travel insurance was to protect you when you cancel or miss a trip for personal reasons. That wouldn't help in this case.


Oh_No
Trogglus normalus

join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL
reply to printscreen
The only thing wrong was a lack of power.
They could have had a boat along side and tied in the electrical to the main boat to restore all services.
That could have been done in hours.

They already have a an option to tie into off ship power for when they are at a port. They could easily have done this safely at sea with a 2nd boat.

They had options instead of forcing people to poop into bags for 4 days.


Voxxjin
Made of Hamburger
Premium
join:2010-01-13
Dupont, WA
Reviews:
·CenturyLink
reply to pike
said by pike:

said by Voxxjin:

I wonder how many people had travel insurance?

i thought travel insurance was to protect you when you cancel or miss a trip for personal reasons. That wouldn't help in this case.

May depend upon the insurance you get but according to wiki the most common cover:

Medical emergency (accident or sickness)
Emergency evacuation
Repatriation of remains
Return of a minor
Trip cancellation
Trip interruption
Accidental death, injury or disablement benefit
Overseas funeral expenses
Lost, stolen or damaged baggage, personal effects or travel documents
Delayed baggage (and emergency replacement of essential items)
Flight connection was missed due to airline schedule
Travel delays due to weather

You would probably have to read the actual details to be sure.
--
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war