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ef200098

join:2010-11-24

Help with wireless network on my property. Multiple houses.

Here is what we are looking to do. We own some acreage with multiple houses on the same property. 3 houses and 1 large garage. We are getting ready to pay thousands to a provider to come out and give us service to the house closest to the road. We want to make sure our vision can happen. We stay in one house, in laws stay permanently in the house by the road. Other house is vacation rental. We would like to have 3 separate wireless networks in each of the houses.

In my mind i have something like this:
Internet comes into Modem,
To router 1
Router 1 (Also used for house 1) to Router 2 with exterior antenna
Router 3 and 4 stationed in other houses connects to router 2.
House 2 uses router 3 for wired and wireless internet
House 3 uses router 3 for wired and wireless

House 3 is across a creek from the other 2 so its not possible to run wire.

Help us out guys. Thanks

Mike


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13
In theory it's possible and might even be quite easy, but as we have no idea how far apart we're talking, whether there's trees or a mountain or large bodies of water between them, etc, there is no way to answer your question. Having line of sight is important!

Personally I wouldn't try to use the same router to provide both coverage for a house and a link to another house, but it might work.

/M


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
reply to ef200098
Lots of unanswered questions.

When you say "3-separate wireless networks" is your goal just to have different wireless names or that they are only able to connect to the Internet but not directly communicate with one another? Unique names are easy - separate networks a little more difficult.

The easiest way to have separate networks is to have multiple IP addresses from your ISP. In that case each location gets its own IP address. The easiest way to provide isolation between different users it to set up multiple VLANs, one for each house but that is not typically a feature of garden variety home router, that is commercial stuff.

The ideal situation is a wired connection between buildings, fiber would be ideal, no lightning worries. From your description sounds like that is not feasible. Not sure exactly why since I assume power runs to all the building. You are going to need more then a normal residential router if you want to connect the other houses wirelessly. You need a Wi-Fi bridge connected to the WAN side of the router. The bridge connects to the "main house" Wi-Fi network and the Access Point in the slave house router provides local access. Being half-duplex mesh type Wi-Fi networks incur a significant performance penalty.

How feasible doing this over Wi-Fi depends on distance and line of sight.

If you connect the "other" houses behind the NAT router at the main house there are a couple of things to be aware of. The other house are being double NATed. Not a problem for outgoing connections but will cause problems if they want to host stuff. Also per your description the WAN connection to those buildings will be connected to the LAN side of the "main house" This is not going to provide the isolation I think you are trying to get. At the "main house" assuming you only have a single IP from your ISP you need a NAT router. Then each house has its own NAT router connected to the LAN side of that router.

Something else to keep in mind is assuming you only have a single ISP account and IP address is that all traffic looks like it originates from that IP. If anyone does anything bad the notice will go to the account owner. If your tenant decides to bit-torrent and gets caught the take-down notice goes to the account holder.

You may also be in violation of your ISP acceptable use policy (AUP) by sharing the connection.

Depending on how fast the ISP connection is and what sort of usage you think will be made of the network you may need to use smarter main router that is able to manage connection speed to each of the houses to provide equability sharing.

If it is at all possible the ideal situation is to have the ISP run separate drops to each house and let the person in the house set up an account.

If not see if they are willing to set up the necessary equipment in the main house to share the connection?

Good Luck - let us know how it turns out.

/tom


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13
said by tschmidt:

The easiest way to have separate networks is to have multiple IP addresses from your ISP. In that case each location gets its own IP address. The easiest way to provide isolation between different users it to set up multiple VLANs, one for each house but that is not typically a feature of garden variety home router, that is commercial stuff.

I'm gonna disagree and say the easiest way is to just double-NAT everyone. Will require 3 WDS capable routers, and 3 generic wireless routers. A good number of generic routers support WDS, so it's actually not that hard to find.

Routers A and X in building 1, B and Y in building 2, C and Z in building 3. Routers A, B, and C make up your "backbone" and connect the buildings. Routers X, Y, and Z are for the people in the houses to connect to.

Internet Connection -> WAN port on router A
Router A WDS bridged to router B
Router C also WDS bridged to router B

WAN port on router X connected to LAN port on router A
WAN port on router Y connected to LAN port on router B
WAN port on router Z connected to LAN port on router C

Any wired devices get plugged into the LAN ports of routers X, Y, or Z as needed.

/M

ef200098

join:2010-11-24
reply to tschmidt
Guys, thanks for the quick replies. Both houses have line of sight to the Main house. Furthest distance is 1000 ft or so, no trees. We can get multiple IP addresses from our provider. We theoretically can run a cable to the other houses but the way the power lines are on the property are screwy. Furthest house's power is 2000ft up the road from the main house. They used to be seperate plots. It is cheaper to have internet run to 'main' house. ISP told us no problem on divvying up the internet to the other houses as they are all mine. The service will be a 60meg service with no caps, so no worry about bandwidth.

I own all the houses so we are just looking to save money with the wireless option, as opposed to wiring all the houses. I can mount any hardware on any of the houses that i chose.

What are my options with having different ip addresses? (Sounds like the ideal situation.) What's kind of hardware do i need for this?

What are my options with a single ip and multiple vlans? What kind of hardware would i need for this?


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13
said by ef200098:

What are my options with having different ip addresses? (Sounds like the ideal situation.) What's kind of hardware do i need for this?

If you go my 2 routers/house route, simply change
"Internet Connection -> WAN port on router A"
to
"Internet Connection -> LAN port on router A"
and assign your IP addresses to routers X, Y, and Z as needed.

/M

ef200098

join:2010-11-24
This would eliminate the double nat? What realistic speeds could i see (End house) with suitable equipment. Will there be that much of a slow down with alll the routers that the info has to go through.


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
said by ef200098:

This would eliminate the double nat? What realistic speeds could i see (End house) with suitable equipment. Will there be that much of a slow down with alll the routers that the info has to go through.

The multiple routers have no significant effect on speed.

What will affect speed is the wireless network and WDS. How much it affect the user experience depends on the equipment and speed of the ISP connection. A back of the envelop calculation is that each wireless hop cuts speed in half. So for sake of argument lets say you have N series APs that sync at 150Mbps. Real world transfer rate is about half 75Mbps. Add another hop with WDS cuts that in half again to 37Mbps. If you are sharing a 3Mbps DSL connection no one will notice, if you are sharing a 20Mbps DOCSIS cable connection they probably will.

1000' line of sight is doable but you will probably need directional antennas.

/tom


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 edit
reply to ef200098
I wouldn't bother with multiple IP addresses, I'd just set up a freesco box with as many NICs as subnets needed, each with their own private IP range, then use some directional, very high gain antennas such as this: »www.cantenna.com/. There are other high gain (20 - 25 db) 2.4 GHz Yagi antennas normally available from eBay, or from China or HK.
--
Wacky Races 2012!

bt06437

join:2001-12-03
Carrollton, TX
reply to ef200098
pay attention to distance:
»www.geckoandfly.com/10041/wirele···parison/

Ethernet cable, in theory, 345 ft.

There are extenders, repeaters, etc.


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Those router ranges, I believe, are with regular antennas. High gain, directional antennas can do much better.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


alphapointe
Don't Touch Me
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Socket Internet ..
reply to ef200098
I'd go with Ubiquiti Nanostation M5's for the wireless links between houses, with Ubiquiti Picostation2s for the users' APs. (although any 2.4GHz CPE will do after the M5, depending on preference)

I have a link set up with some M5's that's about 9000 feet with a few trees in the way, and I can saturate the wired ports at 90Mbps...
--
"When the hammer drops, the bullshit stops"

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to ef200098
said by ef200098:

service to the house closest to the road ... We stay in one house, in laws stay permanently in the house by the road. Other house is vacation rental. We would like to have 3 separate wireless networks in each of the houses.

Since wisp gear like Ubiquity was already mentioned, there is another option called Mikrotik which provide lots of routing/networking functionality.

But based on my hunch of your future needs, I will suggest following equipment from ARC Wireless. (Their CTO is dongato17 See Profile is a veteran of the wisp forum and a really smart and nice guy )

1 FlexAP (5Ghz access point) for the house with modem: »www.antennas.com/flexap/

3 SplitStations (5Ghz terminal + 2.4Ghz access point) for the other two houses and garage: »www.antennas.com/splitstation/

You do not need to buy separate wireless routers for the other houses with this setup. You also utilize 5Ghz for the backhauls keeping 2.4Ghz free for the houses. The splitstation's AP could also run as a hotspot at the rental property.


SmokChsr
Who let the magic smoke out?
Premium
join:2006-03-17
Saint Augustine, FL
reply to ef200098
Also I use and like the NanoBridge Devices from UBNT »www.ubnt.com/airmax#nanobridgem
I have my LAN spanning 6 sites and 30 miles (longest single shot 24 miles) using them. They have quite a bit of ability in their own software to isolate different sites if desired.


ds5v50

join:2003-01-22
Fremont, OH
reply to alphapointe
said by alphapointe:

I'd go with Ubiquiti Nanostation M5's for the wireless links between houses, with Ubiquiti Picostation2s for the users' APs. (although any 2.4GHz CPE will do after the M5, depending on preference)

I have a link set up with some M5's that's about 9000 feet with a few trees in the way, and I can saturate the wired ports at 90Mbps...

This is definitely the way to go. The $ you spend on the equipment will pay you back in the long run.
--
Fremont, Ohio Weather
»www.Fremont-OH-weather.com

ef200098

join:2010-11-24
reply to ef200098
Appreciate all the input, i went with nanostation loco m5's and each of the houses have their own router.

The only question i have left is ip addresses. We run netflix and other video on demand services. Will these companies or any other start to fuss seeing multiple accounts coming from 1 ip?

Is there any advantage to having different public addresses for each house's router? Is there another way to differentiate their connection to the 'outside' world?


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
said by ef200098:

Appreciate all the input, i went with nanostation loco m5's and each of the houses have their own router.

The only question i have left is ip addresses. We run netflix and other video on demand services. Will these companies or any other start to fuss seeing multiple accounts coming from 1 ip?

I believe their streaming is tied to an account, not an IP.


Is there any advantage to having different public addresses for each house's router?

There are several, mostly minor ones, but depending on what you do, it may or may not matter much.


Is there another way to differentiate their connection to the 'outside' world?

I'm not aware of anything generic.
--
Wacky Races 2012!

ef200098

join:2010-11-24
reply to ef200098
What would be the advantages for having static ip's for the other houses? I have one static ip now. We can pick 2 more up for $10/mo.