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sk1939
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join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
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reply to Snakeoil

Re: RAM 1500 Becomes Industry-First Half-Ton Diesel Pickup

said by Snakeoil:

Why do people think diesels are slow/clunky?
I've seen diesel dragsters that were anything but slow and clunky.
Besides that, as long as it can do/maintain the speed limit, is there any reason to have a top speed of 120 MPH or faster?

Quite a few people don't travel at the speed limit around here, usually it's around 20 miles above (65-85). For the most part they are slow, while they have decent performance for torque, they are certainly not high revving engines.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

There isn't a modern diesel vehicle designed for road use that cannot easily do well over our speed limits. You almost sound like they shouldn't be allowed on the highway. Even the big heavy Passat TDI can get to 60mph in 9 seconds, and it is governor limited to 113mph. Not exactly fast but very acceptable.


sk1939
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said by Lurch77:

There isn't a modern diesel vehicle designed for road use that cannot easily do well over our speed limits. You almost sound like they shouldn't be allowed on the highway. Even the big heavy Passat TDI can get to 60mph in 9 seconds, and it is governor limited to 113mph. Not exactly fast but very acceptable.

I suppose that's true, I still remember the old Mercedes and Cadillac diesels that couldn't. Fuel prices are still too costly so I wouldn't get one personally, but it's good they've improved quite a bit.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

You have to remember the vehicle's MPG while calculating the fuel costs. The Cruze mentioned earlier doesn't seem like a good deal when the gasser version is only slightly behind in mileage but many thousands less to buy. On the other hand, you won't find a gas car the size of the Passat that can get anywhere close to 45-50mpg.


sailor
Premium
join:2003-10-21
Long Island
kudos:6

said by Lurch77:

You have to remember the vehicle's MPG while calculating the fuel costs. The Cruze mentioned earlier doesn't seem like a good deal when the gasser version is only slightly behind in mileage but many thousands less to buy. On the other hand, you won't find a gas car the size of the Passat that can get anywhere close to 45-50mpg.

That's a good point you make regarding the Cruze...

Do you feel the Cruze with the diesel would offer better performance, say from 0-60, over the gas equipped Cruze?


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4

I would have to guess it will be a little slower in performance, given the history of gas vs diesel production cars. On the flip side, many owners and reviewers of VW diesel cars claim to experience significantly higher MPG than VW claims with it's diesels. So maybe the low 40s Chevy claims will be higher as well. That would make a difference.



Cho Baka
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reply to Lurch77

said by Lurch77:

On the other hand, you won't find a gas car the size of the Passat that can get anywhere close to 45-50mpg.

A Camry is very similar to the Passat:



--
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sailor
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Long Island
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reply to Lurch77

Thanks!



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
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2 recommendations

reply to Cho Baka

That's the hybrid, which opens up a lot of other costs vs mileage comparisons. I assumed we were talking strictly gas vs diesel.



Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to Cho Baka

Try this link:
Please note the cars used are 2011 models.

»carsort.com/compare/Toyota-Camry···en-Jetta

quote:

In-city gas mileage camry 22 mpg vs Jetta TDI 30 mpg The Jetta TDI has great city mileage and the Camry SE is pretty reasonable

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scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
kudos:2
reply to sk1939

I lived in the DC area from 1988 to 1998, and we go through every 2 years to a family reunion north of Havre de grace MD- I know what the traffic is like in that area. I have no issues at all with my TDI New Beetle in keeping up with any reasonable speeds seen.

And yes - the diesels aren't quite as high revving - but they don't need to be either. The mechanicals of a VW diesel are the same as the higher revving gas motors - so the issue on the redline is not mechanical - it's giving the diesel process enough time to ignite the fuel / air mixture. With the stock ECU programming - the really useful RPM range is 2000-about 4000, with redline at 4800. You can get some hot rod ECU programs that will substantially boost HP and torque - 10-20% aftermarket boost in power is not uncommon and adds some get up and go, and done right - don't even cause it to smoke - and increase MPG to boot.


sk1939
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said by scooper:

I lived in the DC area from 1988 to 1998, and we go through every 2 years to a family reunion north of Havre de grace MD- I know what the traffic is like in that area. I have no issues at all with my TDI New Beetle in keeping up with any reasonable speeds seen.

And yes - the diesels aren't quite as high revving - but they don't need to be either. The mechanicals of a VW diesel are the same as the higher revving gas motors - so the issue on the redline is not mechanical - it's giving the diesel process enough time to ignite the fuel / air mixture. With the stock ECU programming - the really useful RPM range is 2000-about 4000, with redline at 4800. You can get some hot rod ECU programs that will substantially boost HP and torque - 10-20% aftermarket boost in power is not uncommon and adds some get up and go, and done right - don't even cause it to smoke - and increase MPG to boot.

Interesting, I'm not super familiar with the mechanics of VW's having never owned one. I did take a look though at VW's page, it's a shame none except the Touareg (unfortunately named) have more than 140HP (although have an impressive 240ft.-lbs of torque).


Cho Baka
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reply to Lurch77

The Hybrid is strictly gasoline...

I threw it out there as a comparison to the Passat.
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Fir_Na_Tine
Giggity Giggity
Premium
join:2001-01-03
Sout Joisy
reply to Kearnstd

said by Kearnstd:

isnt that one of the reasons a semi has like 30 gears?

As for dislike of diesel in the US, Part of it is emissions. people still commonly link diesel with city buses and dump trucks spewing black smoke.

You also have the issue of the fuel itself. I have rarely seen a diesel pump at a gas station. Well rarely since moving down here to south jersey, When i lived in CT and was right by the freeway every station had diesel with both car and truck nozzles.

Most tractor trailers have 9,10 or 13 speed transmissions. Lots are moving to automatics as well but are different from car automatics, basically they are the same manual tranny's just shifted by computer.

There are some trucks that have 18 speeds too.

Also the WaWa near me just installed a diesel pump and most Citgo's and other stations have them but aren't easily noticed because they are with the regular gas pumps and not on a separate island. Some even have a sign saying no big truck fueling. So they are becoming more prevalent in the area.
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HarryH3
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reply to sk1939

said by sk1939:

... I did take a look though at VW's page, it's a shame none except the Touareg (unfortunately named) have more than 140HP (although have an impressive 240ft.-lbs of torque).

Horsepower is a calculation that relies on RPM, which leaves low-revving motors with low HP numbers. HP=(RPM * T) / 5252. Take a ride in a modern turbodiesel pickup if you'd like to be enlightened about the feeling real torque gives you. They flat haul a$$ when you mash the loud pedal! 600+ ft/lb of torque in stock form and you can easily push them into the 800+ ft/lb range with a programmer.

Picture this: A buddy of mine has a 4WD K2500 Crew Cab pickup with the Duramax diesel. It's sitting on 37-inch tall mud tires and weighs well over 7,000 pounds. It was amazingly quick in stock form, then he added a programmer that manages fuel and boost. On its highest setting, it pushes 875 ft.lbs. He loves to spank Camabirds and Mustangs at the local dragstrip. It just doesn't look like it should go like it does. He has to launch in 4WD to keep from smoking the back tires down most of the track. The diesels you can buy today have left the klattermotors of yesteryear in the dust.

The biggest impediment for diesels today is the EPA. Just a few years ago they lowered the emission standards to be far lower than what is acceptable in Europe. Now we have diesels with catalytic convertors and urea injection. This adds even more cost to operation. The trucks that require urea use a gallon or so per tankful. Last I looked, it was priced in the $8-10 per gallon range. So add that to the higher price of diesel fuel.

The upfront cost of the diesel engine is also extreme. On a new F-250, checking the diesel box will set you back an additional $8,095! So you have to really want that torque...


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Cho Baka

said by Cho Baka:

The Hybrid is strictly gasoline...

I threw it out there as a comparison to the Passat.

Not for nothing, but the $3500 battery pack replacement cost should be amortized over the annual "savings" for the vehicle...

Based on the 8-10 year life the Prius packs are showing, that adds $350-500/yr to the operating costs of a Hybrid.

Still very cheap to operate, efficient, and the price point has dropped to where it's a option for many people, no argument - but there is that "gotcha" when the batteries need to be replaced (and, at some point, they will...)


hitachi369
Embrace Your Rights
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join:2001-10-03
Grand Rapids, MI
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And if there were a diesel electric hybrid, it would have even higher MPG numbers.


sk1939
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reply to HarryH3

At that kind of pricing I'd prefer to get a BMW M3. That's the one issue I've always had with diesel trucks, people who modify them and add unnecessary things like stacks to make them even noisier.

The last time I had a truck, it was an F250 the Navistar(International) 7.3. It wasn't a bad truck, but it was too big and had close to 300k miles. That was back in 2006 or so (was a '96) so I don't know how modern it was.



Cho Baka
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reply to LazMan

And you could quite easily argue that turbo, DPNR catalyst replacement and decarbonizing on a diesel should also be included in amortized costs as well.
Those will need to be done about as often (if not more often) as will HV batteries - and contrary to what you state, most Prius do not need a battery at that age.
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LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada

I'm not looking to get into a pissing match here...

I've seen 500k put on diesel VW's at a rate of 50-60k a year; and never needed cat, turbo, or decarboning service... Nothing more then glow plugs, and routine maintenance.

I'll agree with Lurch and others here that a hybrid vs. diesel isn't an apples to apples argument... Toyota has a great hybrid package, and as I said above, they are getting to the point of being affordable and practical for more consumers.


itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

1 edit
reply to Snakeoil

said by Snakeoil:

But also, Diesels have a longer maintenance interval then gasoline engines. For example instead of every 3k for an oil change you can go 5k in a diesel.

That's not true - Ford specs 7.5k now for their engines. That's what I've been running in my SHO and it's fine. Even my wife's '03 Escape is rated for 5k oil changes. And when I dropped the oil pan on it at 122k (replaced the gasket) it was nice and clean.

Only thing with Diesels here is the fuel is priced higher than premium unleaded. So you'd need to get a lot more MPG to make it practical. Especially when you can get something like an Ecoboost with a Diesel like torque curve, just as much power, good MPG and it runs on regular.

IMHO, just another Me Too Band-Aid from Ram. (Not that I expected anything less from them.)


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to HarryH3

said by HarryH3:


Horsepower is a calculation that relies on RPM, which leaves low-revving motors with low HP numbers. HP=(RPM * T) / 5252. Take a ride in a modern turbodiesel pickup if you'd like to be enlightened about the feeling real torque gives you. They flat haul a$$ when you mash the loud pedal! 600+ ft/lb of torque in stock form and you can easily push them into the 800+ ft/lb range with a programmer.

Picture this: A buddy of mine has a 4WD K2500 Crew Cab pickup with the Duramax diesel. It's sitting on 37-inch tall mud tires and weighs well over 7,000 pounds. It was amazingly quick in stock form, then he added a programmer that manages fuel and boost. On its highest setting, it pushes 875 ft.lbs. He loves to spank Camabirds and Mustangs at the local dragstrip. It just doesn't look like it should go like it does. He has to launch in 4WD to keep from smoking the back tires down most of the track. The diesels you can buy today have left the klattermotors of yesteryear in the dust.

Redneck diesel fun.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqiFM7AB78

HarryH3
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"Hey y'all! Watch this!"


Beezel

join:2008-12-15
Las Vegas, NV
reply to Lurch77

Looks like that Chevy didn't even let off the brake by looking at the tail lights. Can't get a good view on the year of the Chevy, looks like the old 6.5 turbo diesel which was a piece of crap.



south1178
Premium
join:2001-12-17
Cleveland, OH
reply to itguy05

said by itguy05:

said by Snakeoil:

But also, Diesels have a longer maintenance interval then gasoline engines. For example instead of every 3k for an oil change you can go 5k in a diesel.

That's not true - Ford specs 7.5k now for their engines. That's what I've been running in my SHO and it's fine. Even my wife's '03 Escape is rated for 5k oil changes. And when I dropped the oil pan on it at 122k (replaced the gasket) it was nice and clean.

Only thing with Diesels here is the fuel is priced higher than premium unleaded. So you'd need to get a lot more MPG to make it practical. Especially when you can get something like an Ecoboost with a Diesel like torque curve, just as much power, good MPG and it runs on regular.

IMHO, just another Me Too Band-Aid from Ram. (Not that I expected anything less from them.)

Actually they are 10,000 mile intervals. At least for the 2011+ models I've owned. Fusion, Escape and Mustang are all 10K mile oil change schedules.


south1178
Premium
join:2001-12-17
Cleveland, OH
reply to Snakeoil

There are a bunch of truck pulls all night long at Yankee Lake.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxSh_tsQzcw

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

1 edit
reply to south1178

said by south1178 See Profile
Actually they are 10,000 mile intervals. At least for the 2011+ models I've owned. Fusion, Escape and Mustang are all 10K mile oil change schedules.


That's even better. Mine is a 2010 and they said 7500. I wonder if that's because it was the first year of the Ecoboost and they were being extra careful.


EGeezer
zichrona livracha
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Midwest
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reply to Snakeoil

My brother has a Dodge 3/4 ton with the Cummins in it, and has been very pleased with it. He tows a horse/camper trailer with it.

I hope their eight speed auto transmission is more reliable than the automatics I've seen in Chrysler company's minivans.
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sk1939
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said by EGeezer:

My brother has a Dodge 3/4 ton with the Cummins in it, and has been very pleased with it. He tows a horse/camper trailer with it.

I hope their eight speed auto transmission is more reliable than the automatics I've seen in Chrysler company's minivans.

The fact that it's an 8 speed makes me think ZF, or ZF design. Chrysler has used the ZF 845RE / 8HP45 in the SRT8 I know, and I believe that also use it in some RAM models. If it puts some minds at ease, BMW and Porsche use the same transmission.


EGeezer
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said by sk1939:

If it puts some minds at ease, BMW and Porsche use the same transmission.

One would hope that it's beefed up to take the load that a truck would put on it.
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