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LastDon

join:2002-08-13
reply to resa1983

Re: All This UBB , Usage based BS was such a waste

said by resa1983:

said by LastDon:

said by mazhurg:

Unfortunately, it has to be proven. The incumbents are master at smoke and mirrors.

congestion was never proven ###### that is all that was proven.

with these things it seems nothing has to be proven, just a slight advertising or thought will be enough to get the ball rolling.

They managed to prove congestion... Only took 1 speed increase with no network investment for a year on rogers.

Also might I add that rogers changed their format for their financial statements. You cannot tell how much of cables ' additions' are customer equipment, network upgrades, our costs for new service areas as of this latest quarter. I was bashing them hard on their 14 million upgrades in a single quarter, vs shaws 100 million+.

Well, my comment was mostly directed at bell with their fake congestion.. don't you remember the frank and gordon commercials that it is never slow on dsl.. well basically those commercials have made appeared again in new formats saying why dsl is better than cable..

Rogers congestion is them over selling nodes or whatever and cramming so many people in one terminal.. Rogers self induces congestion like man made medicine! flip a switch and we have congestion, flip it off and we are perfect.

I wish I spoke better english, and had better writing skills, I would write a few letters to the CRTC myself..

Their methods of offering unlimited though are such a bitch slap to customers, that if they want to pay 10$ they are somewhat forcing them to get more services with them, if not pay 30$.

Reality is, the groups that were involved with the UBB, and CBB or whatever have to write in something as they are at a disadvantage, since bells argument was that " our competitors shouldn't offer Unlimited because Teksavvy's customers are causing congestion and they are straining our customers "

You guys remember those comments!


Guspaz
Guspaz
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reply to LastDon

I'm hoping that the CBB costs enable TekSavvy to launch 50/10 DSL at a decent price... If the price is right I might upgrade to it.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Davesnothere
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reply to dillyhammer

said by dillyhammer:

Here we go man.

The shit is about to hit the fan.

 



Davesnothere
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reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

So we know that bell got word first, got scared shitless at their plummeting numbers for GAS, hense offering unlimited.

Also sounds like the people at rogers got their information late, and scrambled to match bells unlimited. Rogers told videotron, and that's why they've introduced unlimited..

All in all, it sound like the CRTC caught the deliberate padding by the incumbents. The question is, how systemic was it, and will the CRTC make these numbers retroactive to punish incumbents ?

 
I can hardly wait to attend the public spanking of these 3 bad children - AND, remember the worst one of all in CBB abuse - GOUGEco.

A Retro-Spanking would even be better.

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !

cog_biz_user
i ruin threads apparently

join:2011-04-19
Hamilton, ON

said by Davesnothere:

I can hardly wait to attend the public spanking of these 3 bad children - AND, remember the worst one of all in CBB abuse - GOUGEco.

at least cogeco doesn't call you up 2 years after you closed you account to tell you that you didn't pay a bill from 3 years ago, and that the interest alone will cost you $800. *coughs* bell *coughs*
--
Myth: It's only fair to pay for quality first-run movies.
Fact: Most movies shown on cable get two stars or less
and are repeated ad nauseum.


rocca
Start.ca
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London, ON
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reply to Davesnothere

said by Davesnothere:

A Retro-Spanking would even be better.

That would certainly send the right message.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

You mean if its enough to make the higher DSL speeds attractive?

I'd rather cable be made much more attractive and Rogers stops screwing you around.

I just cancelled DSL since I was stuck with sub 5 meg speed and Bell doesn't seem to care about this area much - no available remote and no plans for one according to my sources. Even though way back in the 90's this area where I live was one of the first DSL areas.

Also Rogers just did major upgrades and I am getting full 75/2 service. So if you guys fix the pricing, offer 75/2+ tiers and work out the reliability then I will definitely switch back.

Just had to vent my frustrations here..


dillyhammer
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reply to rocca

said by rocca:

That would certainly send the right message.

We have 2 companies. They own 2 major sports teams. They own the buildings the teams play in. They own the stations broadcasting most of the games. They own the distribution of the stations to most peoples' homes. They own the majority of services transmitting the games not otherwise distributed to homes.

The CRTC has spent the last two decades fucking up this country's telecom sector. FUBAR. It's the worst case scenario for media concentration ever in the history of North America, the very epitome of what they and IC are supposed to protect us from.

There is only one message.

»www.k-y.com/

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


elwoodblues
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They have and the no government is going to touch it.
In the name of "editorial rights", they'll get crucified in the the media outlets own by these two.

One only has to read the rhetoric over the SUN in their quest for a must carry license. CRTC bad, nanny state, rights being violated.. and so forth. That's for the right to rape Canadians for a few cents/month for their BS news station. Imagine what would happen if the goverment/crtc tried to break them up?
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



En Enfer
This account has been compromised

join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
kudos:4
reply to LastDon

Since Bhell failed to drive its competitors (wholesale) out of business with UBB, you can bet they'll continue to harm them with legal stuff, increasing their expenses in experts and lawyer fees to fight their rights to stay in business by selling products at abordable and competitive prices. Since those added expenses aren't cheap, wholesale providers will have to increase the price of their products to recoup their losses.

One thing that Bhell counts on is the slowness of the CRTC and the many grey areas they can exploit.

While pricing matters are being studied, Bhell can publish promotions, like some permanent 33$ reduction on their Fibe 50/50 if you subscribe to 3 of their services, but the 83$ remains their retail price, but this profile is not yet available to wholesale, and they promote unlimited usage for 10$ extra, so they have plenty of time to steal customers from wholesale.

Gawd, I hate those lying bastards.
--
Tell your children over dinner, "Due to the economy, we are going to have to let one of you go."


cog_biz_user
i ruin threads apparently

join:2011-04-19
Hamilton, ON
reply to elwoodblues

said by elwoodblues:

They have and the no government is going to touch it.
In the name of "editorial rights", they'll get crucified in the the media outlets own by these two.

They should do it anyways. So what if the media makes them look bad afterwards, it's the government's fault we're in this place to start with. The CRTC needs a staff purge, or abolishment.
--
Myth: It's only fair to pay for quality first-run movies.
Fact: Most movies shown on cable get two stars or less
and are repeated ad nauseum.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by cog_biz_user:

The CRTC needs a staff purge

Agreed. Too little too late.

I think the only one who ever raised any concern (and dissenting opinion) was Commissioner Molnar.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

Keep in mind that staff take the direction of the head of the crtc. Things are really different under Blais.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP



hm

@videotron.ca

said by resa1983:

Keep in mind that staff take the direction of the head of the crtc.

Keep in mind, staff/commissioners do have brains. That is why we give them our money.

I did not see any dissenting opinions on record from any other staffer other than Commissioner Molnar over the years.

Where were the other staffers? Where were their concern?

Simple answer. There was none from any of them other than Molnar who put it on public record.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

Keep in mind that staff take the direction of the head of the crtc.

Indeed and the head of the CRTC is the Chairman AND CEO.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

Not much we can do about their retal offerings... Earlier this year bell started totally undercutting us on business DSL. Their retail was lower than our costs.

Did you call the Competition Bureau?


mlerner
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Nepean, ON
kudos:5

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by TSI Marc:

Not much we can do about their retal offerings... Earlier this year bell started totally undercutting us on business DSL. Their retail was lower than our costs.

Did you call the Competition Bureau?

The Competition Bureau would then say call the CRTC.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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said by mlerner:

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by TSI Marc:

Not much we can do about their retal offerings... Earlier this year bell started totally undercutting us on business DSL. Their retail was lower than our costs.

Did you call the Competition Bureau?

The Competition Bureau would then say call the CRTC.

I don't think so, Air Canada falls under Transport Canada's purview yet the competition bureau went after them.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


mlerner
Premium
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Nepean, ON
kudos:5

said by elwoodblues:

I don't think so, Air Canada falls under Transport Canada's purview yet the competition bureau went after them.

Not saying it's not in their jurisdiction but the Competition Bureau seems to like to bounce all telecom issues back to the CRTC.


Gone
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kudos:4

said by mlerner:

Not saying it's not in their jurisdiction but the Competition Bureau seems to like to bounce all telecom issues back to the CRTC.

The only time they can legitimately do that is if it's an issue of regulated consumer pricing. Internet pricing for the end-consumer isn't regulated.

geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Reviews:
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1 edit
reply to LastDon

said by LastDon:

I am sorry did something offend you?

Now that you made those edits, I can understand what you're talking about. The original post, I barely understood it at all.


sbrook
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reply to LastDon

It's not a waste ... it is part of a long history of trying to milk this new "internet thing" for all the money they could get out of it.

First Portal Service, UBB and now CBB are attempts by the incumbents to monetize as much as they can.

They've suffered horribly from lack of public interest in the longer term as they tried to milk "portals". The proof that the Portal approach wasn't going to work should have come from Compuserve and AOL, but no our incumbents tried to create their own and failed, so they outsourced to Yahoo! (Rogers) and MSN (Bell) and both failed. People just weren't interested and didn't want portals. Search engines eliminated the need to be spoon fed web pages! So, the money from the portal providers advertising didn't happen.

So, now how do we milk the public? Since they want lots of data from their own sources, perhaps the thing to do is rip them off by charging them for bandwidth on top of the increased monthly rates. Enter UBB. They tried it several years before the third parties started to noticeably impact their turm. It failed because for once competition worked (sort of). Then they seem to collude and everybody started to put caps and fees on together. Hey presto, in spite of complaints, for the incumbents, it worked. But in the meantime, the 3rd parties came along and were able to offer very high limits or even unlimited. This was upsetting the applecart. The incumbents tried to force UBB on 3rd parties to slow down the competition. It didn't work very well, with plenty of public protest and the eventual agreement of the minister and the CRTC. But notice they didn't back away from UBB for their own customers.

Now along comes Capacity Based Billing ... which really is what we have with the incumbents with tiered pricing for faster speeds so really the incumbents are double dipping ... pay for speed which gives you more data and pay for more data moved!. But now they apply it to 3rd parties to keep the milk flowing at a ridiculous rate that has gone to the CRTC in an effort by the 3rd parties to make the charges reasonable.

So, with that, the incumbents foresee that their cash cow has been seen for what it is and decide they need to compete in another way, again by milking their own customers but as a bone they throw "unlimited bandwidth".

So, Portals, UBB and CBB are nothing more than continued attempts to milk subscribers, whether they are direct retail customers or 3rd party customers and you can be sure that they will attempt to find another way to milk customers.

I do remember reading something recently about an ISP that is attempting to revive the portal approach so everything goes through them, and the customer pays.



elwoodblues
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reply to Gone

Neither are air fares, but selling air fares below your cost in order to drive out the competition is.

So in the case of Bell selling business DSL for less then wholesale, it could be considered predatory pricing.

Bottom line, it has ZERO do with regulation, but how you compete in the marketplace.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


MaynardKrebs
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reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by mlerner:

Not saying it's not in their jurisdiction but the Competition Bureau seems to like to bounce all telecom issues back to the CRTC.

The only time they can legitimately do that is if it's an issue of regulated consumer pricing. Internet pricing for the end-consumer isn't regulated.

In this instance it isn't about price, it's about anti-competitive BEHAVIOR.


Gone
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Behavior has to be demonstrated, and the most obvious way it is demonstrated is through predatory pricing.



dillyhammer
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

In this instance it isn't about price, it's about anti-competitive BEHAVIOR.

That's it, in a nutshell.

I guess the only real issue is, is there some company that has been wronged by this behaviour with big enough balls to actually do something about it.

Somehow (from what I've seen so far anyway) I don't think so.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


mlerner
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Nepean, ON
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reply to Gone

If the Comp Bureau hasn't cracked down on the incumbents price fixing on each others plans then good luck getting them to crack down on predatory pricing.



Gone
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said by mlerner:

If the Comp Bureau hasn't cracked down on the incumbents price fixing on each others plans then good luck getting them to crack down on predatory pricing.

Pretty much. I was merely pointing out that they can't simply refer the issue to the CRTC, because the CRTC doesn't have jurisdiction on the issue.


elwoodblues
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reply to mlerner

said by mlerner:

If the Comp Bureau hasn't cracked down on the incumbents price fixing on each others plans then good luck getting them to crack down on predatory pricing.

But it's not "price fixing", it's "Competitive Symmetry" LOL


Davesnothere
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reply to sbrook

said by sbrook:

It's not a waste ... it is part of a long history of trying to milk this new "internet thing" for all the money they could get out of it....

....the incumbents foresee that their cash cow has been seen for what it is and decide they need to compete in another way, again by milking their own customers but as a bone they throw [in] "unlimited bandwidth".

So, Portals, UBB and CBB are nothing more than continued attempts to milk subscribers, whether they are direct retail customers or 3rd party customers and you can be sure that they will attempt to find another way to milk customers....

 
That's a concise synopsis - well composed.

But did you notice (IIRC) that even Bell is calling it unlimited usage rather than bandwidth, this time around ?

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !