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MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to TSI Marc

Premium Member

to TSI Marc

Re: Major CRTC decision next week. - CBB

said by TSI Marc:

What we really need is stability. once we can have very reliable multi-year income.. we can make plans with that. all the regulatory stuff really causes problems.

Even now. We have to look at our retail rates across the entire country.. from coast to coast.. it's crazy. we'll be tied up for some time just dealing with this decision now.

Do you really think that the incumbents & the CRTC will let you and other indies ever have that stability? Their lawyer fees are rounding errors, while yours are a large percentage of your gross after incumbent charges.

At some point some of the smaller ISP's will have to be gobbled up by a larger ISP in order to bring larger economies of scale to operations. But all that will do is make some indie ISP's larger, and won't expand the market share of the indies as a whole. The CRTC & the incumbents will see to that.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to d_source

Member

to d_source
said by d_source:

At this point they should at least force one of these companies to prove the numbers are real.

The CRTC actually does do some degree of cross-examination and actually does challenge incumbents to prove/justify some of their costs when they are too different from what other incumbents claim in their own costing evaluations.

Of course, this does not work too well when costs are similarly inflated from coast to coast and most discrepancies can be explained by differences in local wages, local laws/codes, trade unions and other environmental, geographic, political, etc. differences.
veriphone
join:2011-01-29

veriphone to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Appreciate that Marc, as I have just paid well over $200 for the transfer from DSL to Cogeco better testing. Quite the pill to swallow as it was...and adding to it some significant increase is definitely not in the cards for me, sorry. Not to mention all the extra equipment I'll end up owning and not knowing what to do with.
So thank you for willing to work with me on that.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Guspaz

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to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

.....the CRTC rejected all proposals to fix the problem, saying that because CNOC had challenged the general procedure rather than any specific piece of info being secret, all the problems/proposals were to be ignored.

The problem is that without disclosing the figures, you can't challenge them. If the CRTC won't let an indie into the room under non-disclosure, then the CRTC is bought & paid for.

If CNOC have to file a R&V and challenge one, some, any, all figures under false pretenses, then according to the standard the CRTC has set with their Catch-22 scenario, then that's what has to happen - just to get in the room with a magnifying glass. Maybe this is better sent to the GiC to point out the ridiculousness of the situation.

Lawyers & experts get into locked room under non-disclosure all the time for M&A deals. Why should Bell get into Astral's kimono or any other company they want to buy - for private gain, and CNOC not get into Bell's for the pursuit of public policy (and CNOC's collective 5% of the market)?
veriphone
join:2011-01-29

2 edits

veriphone to Guspaz

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to Guspaz
Thanks for explaining it...but now a lot of Cogeco better testers will be in this/my situation where they are out of pocket a lot of money with no clear way forward due to excessive cable prices and no way to go back as they have already canceled their DSL accounts. Add to that all the old and new equipment purchased, etc....and you get the ugly picture....not very good I'd say...

If TSI was selling Cogeco cable at some loss (couldn't be too big as they wouldn't have done it otherwise)...one would think the drop in Cogeco rates yesterday (as small as some may think it is but it is a DROP nevertheless) should compensate TSI and more or less even out their charges to what they should have been...therefore I still don't see the rational for "SIGNIFICANT" increase in Cogeco cable service...I do however see how the rates may stay as they are and not be discounted as the drop in prices yesterday will go to help TSI to bring their charges on par and not continue selling at loss.

When am I going to learn to be more patient.....?!? waiting an extra week would have been priceless....

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb

Premium Member

Thats the chance you take when jumping from one to another.Its why I'm still on 6mb dsl.Didnt want to risk gambling good money on a switch to anything while the CRTC still had a chance of screwing it up

Jay_P
join:2005-12-12
Montreal, QC

Jay_P to veriphone

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to veriphone
said by veriphone:

Thanks for explaining it...but now a lot of Cogeco better testers will be in this/my situation where they are out of pocket a lot of money with no clear way forward due to excessive cable prices and no way to go back as they have already canceled their DSL accounts. Add to that all the old and new equipment purchased, etc....and you get the ugly picture....not very good I'd say...

When am I going to learn to be more patient.....?!? waiting an extra week would have been priceless....

They were interim rates however, there was risk involved and we all knew that.

Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium Member
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON

Teddy Boom to MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by TSI Marc:

What we really need is stability. once we can have very reliable multi-year income.. we can make plans with that.

Do you really think that the incumbents & the CRTC will let you and other indies ever have that stability? Their lawyer fees are rounding errors, while yours are a large percentage of your gross after incumbent charges.

Don't forget the resellers?
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

(and CNOC's collective 5% of the market)

That 5% is from something like two years ago. TSI alone has gone from ~70k in their pre-TPIA days to ~200k today so I would expect 3rd-party awareness to have pushed that 5% figure up a point or three over the past year or two.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by InvalidError:

said by MaynardKrebs:

(and CNOC's collective 5% of the market)

That 5% is from something like two years ago. TSI alone has gone from ~70k in their pre-TPIA days to ~200k today so I would expect 3rd-party awareness to have pushed that 5% figure up a point or three over the past year or two.

Call me when the indies have 20-30% market share. Then we may have a market.
d_source
join:2011-01-18

d_source to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by Guspaz:

.....the CRTC rejected all proposals to fix the problem, saying that because CNOC had challenged the general procedure rather than any specific piece of info being secret, all the problems/proposals were to be ignored.

The problem is that without disclosing the figures, you can't challenge them. If the CRTC won't let an indie into the room under non-disclosure, then the CRTC is bought & paid for.

If CNOC have to file a R&V and challenge one, some, any, all figures under false pretenses, then according to the standard the CRTC has set with their Catch-22 scenario, then that's what has to happen - just to get in the room with a magnifying glass. Maybe this is better sent to the GiC to point out the ridiculousness of the situation.

Lawyers & experts get into locked room under non-disclosure all the time for M&A deals. Why should Bell get into Astral's kimono or any other company they want to buy - for private gain, and CNOC not get into Bell's for the pursuit of public policy (and CNOC's collective 5% of the market)?

Exactly. We're not talking about a few pennies here or something small. This decision affects the entire country and it's affordable access to what is now a basic human need in Internet. Allow verification of the numbers, or stop wasting our time b/c we know it's all fabricated and get someone in there who will respect Canadians and not spit in their faces!

Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON

Arbalister to MaynardKrebs

Member

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

said by InvalidError:

said by MaynardKrebs:

(and CNOC's collective 5% of the market)

That 5% is from something like two years ago. TSI alone has gone from ~70k in their pre-TPIA days to ~200k today so I would expect 3rd-party awareness to have pushed that 5% figure up a point or three over the past year or two.

Call me when the indies have 20-30% market share. Then we may have a market.

I'd call you... but I can't get my phone to connect to 2003, when we dropped to 30%. :-p
NBomb
join:2007-01-23
Etobicoke, ON

NBomb to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Marc,

About modem ownership - why not institute a Tab like some of the mobile companies do? Put it as a debit on their account, take off a percentage each month until it's paid off. No contract, but if they leave before it's paid off, they have to pony up the remainder?
ruiner3
join:2012-03-10
Canada

ruiner3

Member

Because there is a lot of risk involved in that and it could turn into a fairly big investment. Of course you could argue that if the product is good enough, people won't want to leave.

What I'd like to see, and what would really help DSL sales, is having the dry loop fees abolished. You don't have to pay a separate fee on coax connections.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to d_source

Member

to d_source
said by d_source:

This decision affects the entire country and it's affordable access to what is now a basic human need in Internet.

While affordable basic internet access may be creeping up as a fundamental right, unlimited high-speed access is still considered a luxury by most standards.

Unless Canadians make this an election issue, the CRTC is unlikely to receive a policy direction telling it to make cheaper high-speed broadband happen any faster than incumbents are working on it now.
mr_hexen
join:2007-08-02
Brampton, ON

mr_hexen to TypeS

Member

to TypeS
said by TypeS:

DSL has always been the superior technology in comparison to Cable. Cable's infrastructure akin to the LAN Hubs of old, DSL is a direct connection between you and the CO/DSLAM (almost). DSL also has had better penetration since 2 wire copper has been around a lot longer then coaxial cable.

The issue with faster speeds being available via cable than DSL is the Telco's dragging their feet to upgrade their aging copper lines. The issue is physical, not technological.

this isn't always true. "upgrading aging copper lines".

I live in Brampton, ON. population 600k+. I live in a neighbourhood that is no more than 6 years old for the ENTIRE city block.

I am limited to 5mbps from Bell.

My copper lines are not old, nor is the equipment setup for our subdivision, its simply that they did not choose to setup it up for the higher speeds.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError

Member

said by mr_hexen:

this isn't always true. "upgrading aging copper lines".

I agree, age has relatively little to do about attainable speeds on DSL as long as the wiring is in otherwise relatively good shape and the remote is close enough.

Metallic continuity issues will mess up sync rates and reliability like nobody's business even on fresh wiring. If continuity is good and there are no shorts/bridges, even 20-30 years old lines will do fine.

Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON

Arbalister to mr_hexen

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to mr_hexen
said by mr_hexen:

I live in Brampton, ON. population 600k+. I live in a neighbourhood that is no more than 6 years old for the ENTIRE city block.

I am limited to 5mbps from Bell.

My copper lines are not old, nor is the equipment setup for our subdivision, its simply that they did not choose to setup it up for the higher speeds.

That actually likely means that when Bell set up the service in your neighborhood, they didn't bother to pull fibre into the new substation... they tagged it onto existing copper. Because, you know, no one in a new neighborhood would want higher speed internet.

MJB33
join:2012-01-29

MJB33

Member

BELL + HELL = BHELL
BELL + SELL = B$ELL

BELL SUCKS... DSL is not upgraded in London, Ont

Max 5mbit
stevey_frac
join:2009-12-09
Cambridge, ON

stevey_frac

Member

I'm in the same neighborhood in my brand new subdivision in Cambridge

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

well gang. what a crazy week. not at all what I thought was going to happen. :\
Hemish
join:2012-05-31
Riviere-Du-Loup, QC

Hemish

Member

I just hope the cable rulings (and mostly Videotron as far as I'm concerned) won't be too dramatic because you'll bleed out customers. You and the other resellers.
mikee
join:2012-12-21
Gloucester, ON

mikee to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
well I am ready to get DSL 25\10 if I can buy a modem and free dry loop when the company offers 50/10 I will get that upgraded depending on the price. I'm not a hardcore bandwidth user but when I want to download something or upload I want it done fast and efficiently 28 down is good but 1 up is laughable even 3 up is still bad. So when ever you get the new DSL prices figured out and what you will do with how you will sell VDSL modems then I will be ready to switch from cable to dsl

Wish you luck in the days ahead because I know you are up to your neck in stress.

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

thanks!
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy

Member

said by mikee:

free dry loop w

said by TSI Marc:

thanks!

Was this part of the decision and I missed it?
mikee
join:2012-12-21
Gloucester, ON

mikee

Member

nope it wasn't but I'm just assuming since other companies offer free dry loop he would as well because the rate dropped for bell. But don't take my word for it. lol of course tsi can choose to differently but well see.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to mr_hexen

Premium Member

to mr_hexen
said by mr_hexen:

My copper lines are not old, nor is the equipment setup for our subdivision, its simply that they did not choose to setup it up for the higher speeds.

Don't you know that Bell took the old copper from Toronto and re-purposed it in Brampton when Forest Hill went fiber?
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to Arbalister

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to Arbalister
said by Arbalister:

I'd call you... but I can't get my phone to connect to 2003, when we dropped to 30%. :-p

That's what the Wayback Machine is for, Sherman.
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to ruiner3

Premium Member

to ruiner3
said by ruiner3:

What I'd like to see, and what would really help DSL sales, is having the dry loop fees abolished. You don't have to pay a separate fee on coax connections.

Nor do you get a dry-loop fee when you order from Bell.

d4m1r
join:2011-08-25

d4m1r to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Even if I could get 50/10 or whatever through DSL today, I wouldn't switch away from cable.

Sorry to be so blunt but the CRTC should have taken this into account, forgotten about DSL, and solely focused on making faster cable packages available to everyone and for a decent price, with very high usage caps (if not unlimited).