 J E F F4Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON |
to BonezX
Re: The elusive pennyAs Gone  said, that wouldn't work as tracking taxes would be made impossible. And in all cases, the retailter would make sure everything rounds into their favour. It's simply better to leave it as is. People will figure it out in a bit of time. |
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 nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON |
to Gone
said by Gone:said by BonezX:tax per item would solve that pretty quickly. So you're saying different tax rates for different products merely so that everything rounds to 0 or 5? If that's what you're saying, I don't think you fully grasp the ramifications of trying to implement something like that for people who actually have to track and report on the taxes they collect and the products they sell. You COULD roll it into the price showing  . I don't know with the the HST being in effect, but again I've said it before I'm 100% positive that retailers could choose to roll the prices in, but choose not to because of what I like to call "optics". Maybe now its time for retailers and other small businesses to re-think that strategy with the penny disappearing. Show the price is $1.30...HST included. That way you always balance at the end of the day. I mean, gas stations do it already so it must definitely be possible and must not be completely "financially ruinous" to do so. Just food for thought. Might save some small businesses some hassle. Tell your client, its this price, tax already included...again, for retailers maybe not, but most, if not all small businesses shouldn't have to worry about a client worrying about 3 or 8 cents.... Just my thoughts on the matter, my $0.05. |
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 donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON |
to BonezX
said by BonezX:what they should have done was the same thing my school did ages ago, calculate the per product price so that when taxes are added it equals 5 or zero cents. not that hard to do and would get a considerable amount less bitching about who's rounding how.
The Gateway News at work is doing this. |
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to nitzguy
In my birth country it is the law to post the full price the customer pays. Most retailers also post on the label the price without the VAT included (essentially what is posted here) too. |
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nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON |
nitzguy
Premium Member
2013-Feb-17 10:35 am
said by Black Box:In my birth country it is the law to post the full price the customer pays. Most retailers also post on the label the price without the VAT included (essentially what is posted here) too.
Because of an obscure provision in the Constitution Act of 1867, the Federal government cannot enforce what they wanted, as this "power" is delegated to the provinces, which have decided to keep it optional... Thank you 1867 people for making things difficult today. |
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Doesn't have to be enforced federally. The provinces could enforce it themselves. The effect would be the same. |
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to elwoodblues
I get to join the course of those who are also out money as a result of this lovely new system. I figure about 15 cents so far since they started with this rounding.
The fun part to come is payments at gas stations. I was talking to a person I know who works at a gas station and xx.02 has become the new norm at the pumps with cash payments.
I expect to see sometime in the near future that gas stations won't accept cash. |
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 Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2013-Feb-18 9:42 pm
said by Robrr:I expect to see sometime in the near future that gas stations won't accept cash. There are still a lot of people out there that refuse to use any plastic, including debit cards. I can't see this realistically happening at any point for the foreseeable future. |
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Robrr
Member
2013-Feb-18 10:03 pm
said by Gone:said by Robrr:I expect to see sometime in the near future that gas stations won't accept cash. There are still a lot of people out there that refuse to use any plastic, including debit cards. I can't see this realistically happening at any point for the foreseeable future. We've had several threads here previously discussing how retailers can refuse cash. So why wouldn't gas stations start refusing cash for every person who pumps xx.02 or xx.01 for that matter. I've not worked at a gas station myself if we were to assume that a gas station does 100 cash transactions per day and each of those are xx.02, at the end of the month the station would be out $60. That may not sound like a lot but it starts adding up fast and I don't see any business owner being very happy about it. |
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Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2013-Feb-18 10:14 pm
Unless you require prepayment using something other than cash - which would make this whole situation moot even with cash - you're going to have a very hard time legitimately refusing to accept cash when someone who refuses to provide any other payment method has cash in their hand ready to pay you.
Gas stations can also round everything up to the nearest 5 if this becomes a big enough issue for them, despite it otherwise being a dick thing to do. |
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 elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in |
to Robrr
It works the other way around too, they can gain by $60 (which adds up) and you won't hear them complaining.
My guess, overall, retailers are gaining on this deal. like with HST, the bag tax, and now the penny, they're getting richer off us due to poorly implemented government policies. |
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Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2013-Feb-18 10:18 pm
said by elwoodblues:My guess, overall, retailers are gaining on this deal. like with HST, the bag tax, and now the penny, they're getting richer off us due to poorly implemented government policies. Unless they're rounding everything up, retailers aren't "gaining" anything out of this. If anything, it's a pain in the ass for them to keep track of short/overs on every single transaction. |
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elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in |
Overall, I think they are gaining, but of course they'll never admit it. |
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Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON |
Gone
Premium Member
2013-Feb-18 11:02 pm
As a business owner and someone who actually has to keep track of financials, I can assure you that all we've gained is a headache. |
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J E F F4Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON |
to Black Box
said by Black Box:In my birth country it is the law to post the full price the customer pays. Most retailers also post on the label the price without the VAT included (essentially what is posted here) too.
That was done here when the GST first came out, Woolco marked all prices with GST added. Didn't work out too well for them though, and they changed it back within 3 months. |
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If I'm understanding it right, it was just one company. It needs to be regulated so everybody does it the same. We need a level playing field. |
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donoreo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON |
to J E F F4
said by J E F F4:said by Black Box:In my birth country it is the law to post the full price the customer pays. Most retailers also post on the label the price without the VAT included (essentially what is posted here) too.
That was done here when the GST first came out, Woolco marked all prices with GST added. Didn't work out too well for them though, and they changed it back within 3 months. Yes, I remember, retailers had the option. People wanted to see the price without tax. |
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to J E F F4
said by J E F F4:That was done here when the GST first came out, Woolco marked all prices with GST added. Didn't work out too well for them though, and they changed it back within 3 months. Funnilly enough one of the last retailers to still mark prices that includes all taxes is the SAQ in Québec, the Government-owned liquor store chain. |
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J E F F4Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON |
to Black Box
said by Black Box:If I'm understanding it right, it was just one company. It needs to be regulated so everybody does it the same. We need a level playing field.
Well, there are still huge difference between Canada and the Euro community: quote:
The coins are issued in €2, €1, 50c, 20c, 10c, 5c, 2c, and 1c denominations. In order to avoid the use of the two smallest coins, some cash transactions are rounded to the nearest five cents in the Netherlands (by voluntary agreement) and in Finland (by law).[18] This practice is discouraged by the Commission, as is the practice of certain shops to refuse to accept high value euro notes.
So they still use, for the most part, 1c and 2c. So the prices might include VAT, they're not rounded to the nearest 5c or 10c. Also, by adding including HST in the price, and rounding to 5c or 10c. it still makes sale tax submissions nearly impossible. Here's an example: Dollar Store sales everything for $1.15 ( $1.02 + 13c in taxes) They sale 2 million items: $1.15 * 2 million equals $2,300,000 in sales. HST store actually collects: 2 million * 13 cents is $260,000 HST actually owing: $2,300,000 / 1.13 = $264,603.80 Not a lot, but no one comes out the winner. Except the government. And then you know why tax collection is an issue in Europe. |
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| J E F F4 |
to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:said by J E F F4:That was done here when the GST first came out, Woolco marked all prices with GST added. Didn't work out too well for them though, and they changed it back within 3 months. Funnilly enough one of the last retailers to still mark prices that includes all taxes is the SAQ in Québec, the Government-owned liquor store chain. Same with the LCBO....price includes all taxes and deposits.. |
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 GuspazGuspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC |
to elwoodblues
Some stores still insist on giving me pennies... I wish they'd stop... |
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IamGimli (banned)
Member
2013-Feb-19 1:44 pm
said by Guspaz:Some stores still insist on giving me pennies... I wish they'd stop... You don't have to take them. |
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 Spike5
Premium Member
join:2008-05-16
Toronto, ON |
to elwoodblues
Loblaws seems to be just rounding down, no up at all. This should had been the golden rule, which would had eventually forced merchants to pretax price properly so it rounds out exactly. |
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J E F F4Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON |
J E F F4
Premium Member
2013-Feb-21 10:27 am
said by Spike5:Loblaws seems to be just rounding down, no up at all. This should had been the golden rule, which would had eventually forced merchants to pretax price properly so it rounds out exactly.
You can't "pre-tax". Things never, ever round out properly. Only way to have things "even" "exactly" would be to have taxes set at an even level; 10%, and have retailers price items in 50c increments. It would have been much better for the government to have gotten ridden of the 5c piece as well, and everything rounds to the nearest dime. Taxes would have to be mutual to all provinces too. Provinces have different rate (Alberta has 0%), so that further messes things up. Tax evasion in the Euro countries is at an all time high and many just don't bother. And not everyone advertises prices with VAT, some do, some don't. It's still not universal. One of the reasons is that calculated VAT owed to government is a little more complicated then it needs to be, and figuring out what you're owed, and owed back, is time consuming. I really can't believe people are concerned about losing a penny here and there, when in the end, everything will even out. It will even out because the rounding applies to the total purchase price, and over anyones lifetime, you shouldn't gain more than 25 cents or lose more than 25 cents. |
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 dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
to elwoodblues
i seriously can't believe this is even an issue, and that this thread is 3 pages long. classic example of #first world problems.  |
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elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
1 recommendation |
It's an issue because like many things governments do, it's poorly thought out. "we're dumping the penny, here are some guidelines how to handle cash transactions but we can't make you obey them".
Big ticket items you aren't gonna being paying cash, so that's not an issue, but little things like a cup of coffee, or small groceries, add up.
There probably is no way to tell, but I'd really be interested to see how this comes out at the end of a reporting period. Did companies make a bundle , a few pennies at a time, or a did they lose? My guess is the former. |
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Bob4Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey |
to Robrr
said by Robrr:I expect to see sometime in the near future that gas stations won't accept cash.
We have a gas station here that only accepts American Express and debit/ATM cards. No cash, no Mastercard/Visa/Discover credit cards. |
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dirtyjeffer0Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON |
to elwoodblues
assuming companies follow the rounding suggestion, which every company i have seen so far does, the law of averages dictates in the end that any differences will be minimal. i have only used cash 2 or 3 times so far and each time it has rounded down...OH NOES!!!!!...I'M GOING TO GET RICH WITH ALL THESE PENNIES I AM NOT HAVING TO SPEND!!!!  |
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 eksterHi there
Premium Member
join:2010-07-16
Sainte-Anne-De-Bellevue, QC |
to elwoodblues
There's really nothing else to think. This exact system is used elsewhere and is working fine.
No one is going to lose a bundle or make a bundle. It'll be a wash.
I already used to 'round' things when I worked at a gas station back in college. When something ended in .01 or .02, .06, etc., I never bothered asking for the change or giving them 4 pennies back, just gave a nickel. And when someone had 19.98 or 19.99, they refused the pennies. After a shift of about $2,000-6,000 in cash transactions, I was off by less than a dollar every time for 3 years. Same thing will happen here... it's all going to be end up being an insignificant difference that will always be close to zero.
And there is a way to tell, accountants have to keep track of it. And I've already spoken to several customers who say that at the end of the day, it's less than a dollar of a difference. |
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Bob4Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey |
to dirtyjeffer0
said by dirtyjeffer0:assuming companies follow the rounding suggestion, which every company i have seen so far does, the law of averages dictates in the end that any differences will be minimal. That assumes prices are random or at least evenly distributed in regards to their cents amount. i.e., $.x1, $.x2 ... $.x9, $.x0 are all equally likely to occur. This is not the case. Many more prices end in $.x9 than other amounts. The true effect will depend on the amount of taxes added. |
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. I don't know with the the HST being in effect, but again I've said it before I'm 100% positive that retailers could choose to roll the prices in, but choose not to because of what I like to call "optics".
