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lugnut
@communications.com

lugnut

Anon

Toronto newborn thought dead, recovering in hospital

»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/t ··· ?cmp=rss
quote:
Toronto newborn thought dead, recovering in hospital

A pair of attentive Toronto police officers noticed that a newborn baby was still alive on Sunday morning, despite the fact they had been told it was dead.

The story started in a part of northwest Toronto, where a woman reportedly gave birth on a sidewalk, near Jane Street and Yorkwoods Gate, on a day when the temperature went as low as -16 C during the morning.

Staff Sgt. Norm Proctor told CBC News that the child’s mother and the grandmother were taken to hospital via ambulance.

Proctor said the child was "worked on" at the hospital, but pronounced dead and subsequently put under a sheet.

Two officers were then guarding the infant, while the coroner travelled to the scene.

Some two hours after the initial call, the officers saw the sheet move. The baby, it turned out, was alive.

The newborn is now in stable condition.

Proctor said it was an unusual story with a happy ending.

The officers involved in the situation involving the newborn were not available to speak with the media on Sunday.


All's well that ends well... Musta been one of those Zombie Apocalypse Babies

J E F F4
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON

J E F F4

Premium Member

Interesting. This seems to be happening more and more.

Seems to me that the more we know about health care the less we know about health care.

Glad the baby is alright though.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

1 recommendation

Gone to lugnut

Premium Member

to lugnut
So was the baby clinically dead and then somehow spontaneously revived itself, or was the person who made the call incompetent?

Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium Member
join:2005-03-12

Wolfie00

Premium Member

said by Gone:

So was the baby clinically dead and then somehow spontaneously revived itself, or was the person who made the call incompetent?

Probably both. Given the circumstances described, the baby probably suffered severe hypothermia and may have been clinically dead at the time of admission, but the greatly lowered body temperature itself can forestall organ and brain damage much longer than would normally be possible. Of course the doctors should have taken this into account. Who knows, maybe it was plain simple incompetence, but the hypothermia would have complicated the diagnosis.

A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium Member
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

A Lurker

Premium Member

I've heard the comment many times (in television shows I admit) that nobody is dead until they are warm and dead. My guess is that's the case here. Someone pronouced while the baby's core temperature was too low.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

So, incompetence it is.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

So was the baby clinically dead and then somehow spontaneously revived itself, or was the person who made the call incompetent?

My vote is the 2nd.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to Gone

to Gone
said by Gone:

So, incompetence it is.

And you have how many years of medical school?

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

1 edit

I_H8_Spam

Member

said by DKS:

said by Gone:

So, incompetence it is.

And you have how many years of medical school?

Said Dr. will have some explaining to do at a future College inquiry, also most likely the Standards and Ethics department at the hospital will investigate further.

I'm sorry but pronouncing dead is not something so be taking lightly, could the delay in treatment by this misdiagnosis lead to future health concerns? This story had a happy ending thankfully.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by I_H8_Spam:

said by DKS:

said by Gone:

So, incompetence it is.

And you have how many years of medical school?

Said Dr. will have some explaining to do at a future College inquiry, most like standard and ethics at the hospital will investigate further.

I'm sorry but pronouncing dead is not something so be taking lightly, could the delay in treatment by this misdiagnosis lead to future health concerns? This story had a happy ending thankfully.

Not at all. Because of the circumstances, this was a reportable death and the coroner was called. The coroner was yet to arrive, and the child was found to be alive.

I_H8_Spam
join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON

I_H8_Spam

Member

No but I am sure hospital/college will want to review the steps that lead to the first doctors misdiagnosis to determine means of prevent such a reoccurrence.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

So was the baby clinically dead and then somehow spontaneously revived itself, or was the person who made the call incompetent?

We've got a saying, when it comes to medical responses in the winter...

"They're not dead, until they are warm and dead"

I don't know any specifics in this case, beyond what's been reported - but it's not unheard of for severely hypothermic infants and children to show no detectable pulse for 45 mins or better (although an ECG should pick up the electrical activity of the heart) - and be revived, after a gradual warming...

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to lugnut

Premium Member

to lugnut
Many here seem to wish to speculate without any facts. So far the only thing stated was by a police staffer by no means an authority on medical matters nor directly related to the case. I am most curious to see how the hospital replies - did a doctor paedatric emerg doc, even look at the baby??

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to I_H8_Spam

to I_H8_Spam
said by I_H8_Spam:

No but I am sure hospital/college will want to review the steps that lead to the first doctors misdiagnosis to determine means of prevent such a reoccurrence.

Absolutely.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to Anav

Premium Member

to Anav
said by Anav:

Many here seem to wish to speculate without any facts.

Isn't that the whole purpose of a general topic forum?

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
Premium Member
join:2004-02-16

koira

Premium Member

said by FFH5:

said by Anav:

Many here seem to wish to speculate without any facts.

Isn't that the whole purpose of a general topic forum?

Absolutely , all the arm chair medical experts raise your hands please !

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot

Premium Member

said by koira:

Absolutely , all the arm chair medical experts raise your hands please !

I'm qualified to practice medicine in all of Canada's 50 states.

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan to koira

Premium Member

to koira
said by koira:

Absolutely , all the arm chair medical experts raise your hands please !

There's actually a few experts in various fields in here...

And a few that believe they are experts in EVERY field, but that's a different thing altogether...

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

I can say uncategorically with 100% uncertainty that urban is sober.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot

Premium Member

Sober enough to complete your necessary brain surgery? I'm good with power tools too... !

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to lugnut

Premium Member

to lugnut
I see, and is that how dark lobe got his name?
Expand your moderator at work

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

1 recommendation

Gone to LazMan

Premium Member

to LazMan

Re: Toronto newborn thought dead, recovering in hospital

said by LazMan:

I don't know any specifics in this case, beyond what's been reported - but it's not unheard of for severely hypothermic infants and children to show no detectable pulse for 45 mins or better (although an ECG should pick up the electrical activity of the heart) - and be revived, after a gradual warming...

Right, and if the baby was cold, and it's not unheard of for children to revive after warming, wouldn't it be a bit odd for a medical professional to declare the child dead when what happened here isn't exactly an unknown occurrence? Hence my (inflammatory, I will admit) "incompetence" comment? True, we don't know all the details, but geez.

Just saying. This is why it's a discussion forum, after all.

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
Premium Member
join:2004-02-16

koira

Premium Member

I fully agree with your incompetent comment, on what we know it seems they jumped to conclusion.
Thankfully its turned into a relatively good news story and let's hope the baby is unharmed after full recovery .

LazMan
Premium Member
join:2003-03-26
Beverly Hills, CA

LazMan to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

said by LazMan:

I don't know any specifics in this case, beyond what's been reported - but it's not unheard of for severely hypothermic infants and children to show no detectable pulse for 45 mins or better (although an ECG should pick up the electrical activity of the heart) - and be revived, after a gradual warming...

Right, and if the baby was cold, and it's not unheard of for children to revive after warming, wouldn't it be a bit odd for a medical professional to declare the child dead when what happened here isn't exactly an unknown occurrence? Hence my (inflammatory, I will admit) "incompetence" comment? True, we don't know all the details, but geez.

Just saying. This is why it's a discussion forum, after all.

No argument here - whomever made the declaration (and whomever witnessed the declaration) will be having some tough questions to answer in the near future, and rightly so.

We're able to declare, in certain, very specific circumstances... No need to get into them this close to lunch; but let's just say, they leave no room for doubt... Paramedics, usually under the direction of the base hospital doctor, can declare in more situations then we can.

Again, we don't know many details - how long the infant had been worked on, what steps were taken, but typically (and I'm a AMFR, not a ACP or BLS paramedic, and certainly not a doctor) - if the baby's core temperature was over 35 deg C or so, there was no pulse or respiration effort, no detectable heart rhythm, and 3 or more rounds of drugs had been given, there would be grounds to declare... A spontaneous (or even medically assisted) recovery would be totally unexpected at this point.

If the attending doctor followed the standard of care; then declared based on where the standards led him (or her); this will be a medical wonder - if the doctor fell short of the standard, they'll have some serious 'splainin' to do...
IamGimli (banned)
join:2004-02-28
Canada

IamGimli (banned) to koira

Member

to koira
said by koira:

I fully agree with your incompetent comment, on what we know it seems they jumped to conclusion.

The irony is so strong, one can almost taste it.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

I toast snafu for not even perceiving his slighting of Gone, and am shocked that it sailed right by (gone over his head so to speak).

Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium Member
join:2005-03-12

Wolfie00 to lugnut

Premium Member

to lugnut
CBC update on the story -- basically quoting an ER doctor confirming what has already been said here about hypothermia, and adding the fact that a newborn would be especially susceptible to the chance of revival:
»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/t ··· ide.html

koira
Hey Siri Walk Me
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join:2004-02-16

koira to Anav

Premium Member

to Anav
said by Anav:

I toast snafu for not even perceiving his slighting of Gone, and am shocked that it sailed right by (gone over his head so to speak).

and I return the compliment to you Anav,irritated Lama, and although it may have read that way I would never even dream of such.
Cbeers :

www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· m9P8naDQ


loosedobbs
join:2006-06-13
Toronto

loosedobbs to Wolfie00

Member

to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

CBC update on the story -- basically quoting an ER doctor confirming what has already been said here about hypothermia, and adding the fact that a newborn would be especially susceptible to the chance of revival:
»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/t ··· ide.html

There was a nice documentary by Dr Gupta on CNN about this.

SG: I was really surprised as well and had no idea of the political ramifications of what I was writing. I’ve been overwhelmed by e-mails from people who are involved with this on both sides of the issue. The application of hypothermia is so simple that it’s almost unbelievable. If you look at your chance of surviving cardiac arrest as you’re walking down the streets of your neighborhood and nobody helps you, they are about 2 to 3%. Now, if somebody helps and let’s say calls 911, it goes up to around 10%. But if someone does simple chest compression and you add hypothermia, you can get a 700-800% increase in survival! There should be no argument on this.

»www.lef.org/magazine/mag ··· a_01.htm

It's time doctors in Canada better pay attention to such cases.