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criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to AlanM

Re: Horrible youtube speeds

For what it's worth, I'm having problems with YouTube through Verizon FIOS.

Some of what I wrote above still holds. If I use Download Helper to get the URL for the second highest speed (the highest speed can't be played in real time outside of the Youtube interface since it is actually two files played in sync, the audio and the video, although they can be downloaded), then copy that URL into the standalone VLC player, it works fine. The streaming pattern when played through the VLC player is quite different from the pattern when played through the Flash interface on the Youtube page. There are no zero data periods; the pattern is roughly as follows: about 50% of the time it runs at .5 meg, and the visible pattern is quite straight, almost as if it's being capped; the rest of the time it either drops to .3 megs for about two to four seconds or bursts up to .8 megs for about one to two seconds; and the playback is rock-solid.

Here's some additional info.

First, the streaming pattern: When Verizon FIOS is in its "fail Youtube" mode, here's the pattern I see on the Rokario Bandwidth Monitor. First, when the clip first starts, there's a huge burst, normally running about 30megs per second, and normally lasting about five to ten seconds. Then the data stream drops to nothing for several seconds; all of that is relatively normal (the clip is still playing properly since that initial burst collected the first two to three minutes of the clip). But then things go wrong: the next burst, instead of being in the 1 meg to 5 meg range, only climbs to about .2 meg; yep, that's what I said, .2 meg. And that is the regular pattern going forward, for the next minute or two until the clip runs out of buffer and starts to stop and start.

I did one other experiment which may or may not make sense to the heads here: Once the clip started running into trouble (for what it's worth, I used a long standard definition clip, the movie of Lehar's Czardasfurstin with Moffo and Kollo at

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=070a_VWTW5w
, which runs one hour, thirty-five minutes), I switched to my T-Mobile connection, which runs around 20 megs per second download. In seconds, I saw another burst, and the clip resumed playing. This time the pattern was somewhat different and the playback was very stable. Here was the pattern: first there would be about five seconds of zero data, that would be followed by a 1 meg burst lasting about three seconds, two seconds of no data, a three second burst at 5 megs, two seconds of no data, then a three second burst at 1 meg, followed by five seconds of no data, after which the whole pattern would repeat itself.

I watched like this for about 15 minutes without a care in the world; then I didn't touch the Youtube page but disconnected from T-Mobile and switched back to Verizon FIOS. The transition was seamless with no interruption at all. Moreover the pattern REMAINED THE SAME AS WITH T-MOBILE!!! The only difference was that instead of a 5 meg burst, the middle burst became a 10 meg burst.

Intrigued, I then stopped the playback and reloaded the clip.

This time it played perfectly, with the same pattern, 1 meg, 10 meg, 1 meg, pause, 1 meg, 10 meg, 1 meg, pause.

If I didn't know better, I would say that playing it for a few minutes through T-Mobile somehow FIXED the Verizon FIOS problem! That doesn't make much sense.

Alternate explanations: The problem was never with Verizon FIOS; it was with Youtube; and it just happened to fix itself as I switched to T-Mobile. That's why I've been unable to provoke the problem since then on Verizon FIOS. Of course, that doesn't explain why VLC was 1) able to play the clip with an entirely different streaming pattern and 2) play it back perfectly, even as it refused to play properly on the Youtube page.

Thoughts?

Bytezboy

join:2001-05-17
New York, NY
reply to AlanM

The speeds seem to be back to normal during primetime hours. I loaded 3 1080p streams to test, it never buffered throughout the entire video.
--
75/35 Fios, Triple Play Extreme.


norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Netflixer

Click for full size
I generally see transit via Verizon but sometimes I see videos being served via XO or TATA.

E.g. from my house:

r6---sn-ab5e6m7z.googlevideo.com goes through TATA
r17---sn-p5qlsnle.googlevideo.com goes through Verizon


Netflixer

@verizon.net
reply to norm

said by norm:

When I experience YouTube issues anymore, it's going through another provider for transit (Verizon to XO is terrible), or there is an issue in my immediate area. I'm in Pittsburgh, PA. I'm pretty confident my entire area is neglected by Verizon these days.

That's odd as Google purchases transit from Verizon.. If they are sending it via XO that is either an error, or a bad Google decision which negatively impacts customers.

norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Netflixer

When I experience YouTube issues anymore, it's going through another provider for transit (Verizon to XO is terrible), or there is an issue in my immediate area. I'm in Pittsburgh, PA. I'm pretty confident my entire area is neglected by Verizon these days.



Netflixer

@verizon.net

1 edit
reply to norm

If you are going through NewYork Google seems to have 80G of Verizon transit/paid peering:

Packets Pings
Host Loss% S nt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev
..snip..
6. TenGigE0-6-0-4.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET 0.3% 33 4 20.5 24.4 16.3 104.2 10.3
TenGigE0-4-4-0.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
TenGigE0-6-4-0.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
TenGigE0-6-1-0.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
TenGigE0-6-2-0.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
TenGigE0-6-0-5.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
TenGigE0-4-0-0.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
TenGigE0-4-1-0.GW8.NYC4.ALTER.NET
7. google-gw.customer.alter.net 57.8% 334 19.2 17.5 14.6 26.4 1.9
8. 72.14.238.232 0.9% 3 34 18.0 21.1 15.0 59.1 7.5
9. 72.14.237.254 0.0% 3 34 18.4 19.3 15.8 34.0 2.1
10. lga15s35-in-f7.1e100.net 0.0% 3 34 19.1 20.2 16.8 33.2 1.9

While the 7th hop does show loss, it does not follow through so that is a non-issue.

YouTube slowness on FiOS is likely to be one of two issues

1) The content you are looking at is being served by Google from a poorly performing, or capacity constrained server. A more advanced user can identify the server and run several tests to it to confirm.

2) There is congestion at the Google->Verizon network interconnection. These network interfaces are purchased by Google so if there is not enough capacity it is because they let them run hot and have not ordered more in time.

[Blown margins fixed. /sashwa]


rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
reply to norm

said by norm:

Wow, your story. It's almost like they're trying to get people to hate their wired services.

One might think. But my experience at $DAYJOB on a somewhat larger VZ Wireless account (several hundred lines, $30k-40k per month) netted the same poor support experiences as their wireline services.

Forget poor support for a moment. The reason we moved the whole account to AT&T at renewal is their $SALES$ guys put in zero effort to retain the account. Note that AT&T uses GSM while Verizon uses CDMA, so our fleet of VZ iPhones were not compatible with AT&T. We had to buy, provision, and swap out several hundred new devices. Major hassle, labor intensive. But the deal from AT&T was SO much better than Verizon's renewal offer, it was worth the effort and up-front expense of buying all those new iPhones.

Even when our Verizon rep was told they were going to lose the account, but we'd give them one more shot at keeping us, they came back with an insulting offer that wasn't even close to AT&T. Really-- it's like they didn't WANT the account at all.

Based on their attitudes, I'm guessing the sales guys make the big commissions on NEW accounts only, and probably little to nothing on renewals. So where is their incentive to keep a customer? Let the account walk to a competitor, then try to lure it back in 2 years and make a big "new" commission on it.

norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
reply to rebus9

Wow, your story. It's almost like they're trying to get people to hate their wired services.


rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
reply to norm

said by norm:

Depending on the rep, they'll either tell you it's not Verizon or they'll agree it's Verizon but they won't do anything about it. That includes the reps here on the direct support forum.

The sad part about Verizon is they have some exceptionally talented and empowered router gods-- I've spoken with a couple over the years when an on-site VZ tech has put them on speakerphone-- but they are buried so far out of reach that even their front-line techs can't touch them.

I turned up a business DSL line that was broken from Day One. Spent several 30-60 minute calls with Level I support, no resolution. Verizon tech was dispatched, ruled out any problems in the local plant back to the C/O, then called (if you can believe this) the same support line I'd previously called. Even after identifying himself as a VZ employee, they still gave him the runaround-- made him reboot his VZ-issued laptop several times, power cycle modem, etc. After 45 minutes of hassle, he abruptly hung up on the support tech, dug through his little black book of magic phone numbers, and found one to some place in (if I recall) Boston/Cambridge-- some magic number where he got a highly clued engineer. Problem was diagnosed within minutes, and resolved almost immediately thereafter.

It was incredible how FAST the problem was solved-- within minutes-- after I wasted more than 2 hours, and he wasted 45+ minutes, with clueless front-line techs who were reluctant to escalate to Tier 2.

Makes me wonder if the Tier 1 techs are punished (financially or otherwise) for every call they escalate to Tier 2, because they are VERY reluctant to do it.

norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to rebus9

said by rebus9:

said by norm:

said by Bill Neilson:

I think the only thing more frustrating than the speeds at night is the response from Verizon reps when I call.

My favorite response from Verizon when there's obvious saturation at an ALTER.NET hop is that ALTER.NET is not Verizon so there's nothing that can be done about it.

That's sad if a VZ rep actually told you ALTER.NET is not under Verizon's control.

Depending on the rep, they'll either tell you it's not Verizon or they'll agree it's Verizon but they won't do anything about it. That includes the reps here on the direct support forum.

rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
reply to norm

said by norm:

said by Bill Neilson:

I think the only thing more frustrating than the speeds at night is the response from Verizon reps when I call.

My favorite response from Verizon when there's obvious saturation at an ALTER.NET hop is that ALTER.NET is not Verizon so there's nothing that can be done about it.

That's sad if a VZ rep actually told you ALTER.NET is not under Verizon's control.

norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Bill Neilson

said by Bill Neilson:

I think the only thing more frustrating than the speeds at night is the response from Verizon reps when I call.

My favorite response from Verizon when there's obvious saturation at an ALTER.NET hop is that ALTER.NET is not Verizon so there's nothing that can be done about it. Meanwhile, I'm regularly seeing peering issues between Verizon and other tier 1 providers like Level 3. It's somehow never Verizon's fault though...


Bill Neilson
Premium
join:2009-07-08
Arlington, VA
reply to norm

I think the only thing more frustrating than the speeds at night is the response from Verizon reps when I call.


norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Bill Neilson

said by Bill Neilson:

Recently moved back to DC. Got FiOS and was quite excited about it. Have the 50/25 plan.

I am rather floored at how poor the service has gotten from a few years ago when I had it here.

At night, I struggle to watch basic streaming sites like Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, etc.....

Very disappointed and have tried multiple switches..new router, etc

As you can see from all of the pages of comments, it's terrible. Verizon's peering is garbage anymore. Er, I'm sorry, everyone else's peering is garbage. Let me point my finger at everyone else now.


Bill Neilson
Premium
join:2009-07-08
Arlington, VA
reply to AlanM

Recently moved back to DC. Got FiOS and was quite excited about it. Have the 50/25 plan.

I am rather floored at how poor the service has gotten from a few years ago when I had it here.

At night, I struggle to watch basic streaming sites like Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, etc.....

Very disappointed and have tried multiple switches..new router, etc


criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to batsona

said by batsona:

Its interesting that pasting that link right into the browser results in better performance.

Fascinating! That might be useful to know again for the future.

said by batsona:

I've got that Download Helper on my system - i'll try this method...

The next time you have problems, let us know if it helps; thanks!

batsona
Maryland

join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Verizon FiOS
reply to criggs

I read an outdated research paper that these college kids did, on how YouTube distributes its watchable content, and what methods / algorithms are in use for selecting & viewing that content. It was so complex I couldn't really follow it. Its interesting that pasting that link right into the browser results in better performance. I've got that Download Helper on my system - i'll try this method...


criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
reply to norm

How about stripping the Youtube packaging?

Here's what I'm getting at: there is software that can drill down and find out the direct link for a video clip, without having to load up all the Youtube folderol. For example, for Firefox, the name of that software is Download Helper.

Let's take a look at a high-quality Youtube HD clip. I chose the Glacier National Park by veeerzes, because it has full 1080 HD which results in a very high definition picture (though the compression is visible at times in the form of occasional blocky artifacts). The video is located at

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKP8LxVwwk0
. After I start the playback, I open the Settings options in the lower right-hand corner of the video frame and select 1080 HD.

Once the stream has switched over to 1080 HD, I take a look at my real-time Bandwidth Meter. It shows streaming that occurs in pulses, not a constant feed. These pulses normally run at about 30,000 kbps or 30 mbps (I'm on the 50/25 tier). Someone earlier in this thread termed this D-A-S-H playback, I believe. Despite the constant interruptions of the stream as a result of this behavior, the clip plays smoothly without interruption or buffering (I'm in Manhattan, zip 10022, in case the Verizon FIOS/Youtube problem varies depending on location).

Now I take a look at the Download Helper to see the direct link for the 1080 version of the clip. The direct link for the 1080 version is located at »r4---sn-8xgp1vo-xfgz.googlevideo···CFAC5CA1 .

So I close the tab playing the clip through Youtube, open a new tab, and paste the link above instead.

THIS time, the clip plays with a solid unbroken stream, running again at an average of 30 mbps (which means the entire clip will probably be downloaded long before the clip has finished playing). And again, there are no problems, no buffering, no interruptions, no instability, just very fast and constant playback. After playing for two minutes, I can see from the progress bar at the bottom that over half of the clip has now been loaded.

Here's what I'm thinking: Might this be another way to bypass the occasional Youtube/Verizon problems?

norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
reply to norm

Definitely can't get a single video to play. I'm seeing packet loss to Level3, XO, and Above.Net. Absolutely nothing is working this evening...


norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Chris123NT

said by Chris123NT:

And youtube is completely unwatchable for me tonight. Awesome.

»i.imgur.com/tZh7s9X.png

Verizon in yellow.


Chris123NT

join:2001-11-24
Nesconset, NY
reply to AlanM

And youtube is completely unwatchable for me tonight. Awesome.


banshee

join:2013-06-17
Albany, NY
reply to rebus9

I think it's location, I live in upstate N.Y. and never had a problem with YouTube or Netflix.. I'm on these two everyday and Netflix almost every night..


rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
reply to McBane

I'm wondering if Verizon has been shifting their peering traffic with YouTube around to different POPs, rather than adding capacity to fix the problem. That would help explain why the problems seem to come and go. From a traffic engineering standpoint, it's trivial to shift inbound YouTube traffic to whatever links Verizon wants to receive it on.

The one thing I know for sure is, anytime I want to watch YouTube at night, I have to switch over to my Brighthouse RR connection. It's not useable on FIOS.


McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX
reply to rebus9

Mine has actually been getting kinda crappy again during peak hours Not as bad as before where it was completely unusable, but a lot of buffering recently.


criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to rebus9

Well, I took the plunge and went with Verizon FIOS; installation on the 14th. I thought about Road Runner Time Warner since they're also in my building. But Road Runner only has a 2 megabyte upload speed and I've already got better than that with Sprint LTE, and I'm always uploading stuff to my ftp site, so that was a deal-killer. If worse comes to worse, this proxy app looks like it might be the solution for Youtube if FIOS starts misbehaving.


rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
reply to Optimus2357

said by Optimus2357:

Sorry to bring up a old post, but is this issue still occuring? The same issue (low Youtube throughput fixed by proxy/VPN) is effecting us customers on Cox currently, and notice there hasn't been a post on this forum for abouth a month. If the problem was fixed, what was the fix?

Not for me (Tampa Bay area). Speedtest results are solidly in fluff territory at the same time I can't get a YouTube video to play more than 5 seconds without pausing to buffer.

I have both FIOS and Road Runner, so my solution at night is to reach YouTube via RR.

criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to norm

said by norm:

Instead of a VPN, I suggest some sort of plugin like the following:
»chrome.google.com/webstore/detai···kafaabdp

I took a look, and it certainly seems to have been designed specifically for this problem; interesting. So, if I go with Verizon FIOS, and start experiencing a Youtube problem, I'll definitely give this a whirl before going the VPN route.

A reminder, however, that I'm still looking for feedback on Time Warner Cable Internet versus Verizon FIOS Internet, for anyone who's used the former; thanks!

criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to norm

I can see that I may need some education in a hurry. Maybe I should think twice before going with Verizon FIOS. Time Warner Cable is also available in my building. What do you folks think of their Internet service? What are their official speeds, tiers and so on? And their reliability?


norm

join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to criggs

said by criggs:

said by norm:

In regards to the VPN, assuming the route to your VPN and the route from the VPN to YouTube is fine, then yes.

I've seen a few recommendations. Do you have a VPN you recommend?

I do not, sorry. It's a bit like playing roulette with Verizon as it seems like every day they're having a problem with some other network. Instead of a VPN, I suggest some sort of plugin like the following:

»chrome.google.com/webstore/detai···kafaabdp

criggs

join:2000-07-14
New York, NY
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to norm

said by norm:

In regards to the VPN, assuming the route to your VPN and the route from the VPN to YouTube is fine, then yes.

I've seen a few recommendations. Do you have a VPN you recommend?