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bohratom
My Jersey Giants finally winning again..
join:2011-07-07
Red Bank NJ

1 edit

bohratom to navyson

Member

to navyson

Re: Horrible youtube speeds

said by navyson:

Something has changed since then to cause youtube using Verizon FIOS going downhill.
providers.

If you scroll up afew you will see that nycdave explained the reason for the slow speeds. Sad part is no time frame on when it will be rectified.

"Until Google provides more peering capacity with Verizon, the problem will continue. Verizon can't force Google to increase Google's peering links to increase traffic from Verizon"
navyson
join:2011-07-15
Upper Marlboro, MD

navyson to AlanM

Member

to AlanM
Did Google decrease the "peering" capacity since the summer of 2012 when NBC in partnership with youtube had live streaming of the Olympics?

I had no problems watching 1080p live coverage during the Olympics this past summer. Now, it is February, a few months after the fact and at times, I can barely stream a 360p video.

Did google cut back on the peering links since then? I can only assume there were alot more streaming requests from Verizon customers during the Olympics than what we have now.

shmee
join:2005-04-03
Phoenixville, PA

shmee to AlanM

Member

to AlanM
i'm just happy to finally see that i'm not alone with this issue. it was really driving me nuts. i was resetting my routers, running dns benchmarks and switching around nameservers, so on and so forth, all because of this horrible youtube buffering.

i just recently got into minecraft pretty heavily (yeah, i know... i'm late to the party!) and i'm dying to watch the myriad of youtube videos with respect to the game and its content, but it's been utterly miserable trying to slug through with things as they are right now. :/

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave to navyson

MVM

to navyson
It's increased traffic due to more customers on FiOS - if Google doesn't increase their peering capacity as the traffic increases, you see what happens.....
navyson
join:2011-07-15
Upper Marlboro, MD

1 edit

navyson

Member

said by nycdave:

It's increased traffic due to more customers on FiOS - if Google doesn't increase their peering capacity as the traffic increases, you see what happens.....

Since you seem to be someone in the know, do you know if Verizon has requested Google to increase the peering links?

If this issue isn't resolved, when Verizon introduces its new DVR a few months from now that has a youtube channel, that channel will basically be worthless if you can stream anything from youtube.

I don't want to hear that is just a youtube problem. Verizon needs to work proactviely with google/youtube to solve this issue. Youtube is one of the most visited sites on the internet and my hope is that that Verizon would not want to follow ignore this obviously big issue.
navyson

1 edit

navyson to nycdave

Member

to nycdave
said by nycdave:

It's increased traffic due to more customers on FiOS - if Google doesn't increase their peering capacity as the traffic increases, you see what happens.....

Comcast has millions more broadband customers than FIOS and their customers don't seem to have alot of complaints with youtube streaming.

I came from Comcast to FIOS and I don't remember having youtube issues. I spoke with two friends of mine on Comcast now and they both don't have any problems streaming youtube videos.

Comcast can have the foresight to make sure it has enough peering links to youtube and Verizon didn't make sure it had enough? Something is wrong here.

birdfeedr
MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI

1 recommendation

birdfeedr

MVM

Please check out this link as a start. You need to know a little more about tier-1 carriers. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti ··· _network

Here's a list of large Tier-2 carriers. Note the second paragraph of the text. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti ··· _network

Google is not on this list, although that does not mean it is not tier-2.
A tier-2 purchases transit from a tier-1, not the other way. Tier-3 typically purchases transit from a tier-2.

Purchase cost includes bandwidth. If you have a skinny pipe because that's all you're willing to pay, peak time access will suffer.

Comcast is a tier-2 ISP. Get a traceroute from a comcast address to youtube to see who provides transit.

From my VZ address, traceroute to youtube goes through Verizon through alter.net to the google gateway. While alter.net is a verizon business component, there's lots of folks who know VZ's right hand doesn't know what its left hand is doing.

You may find a traceroute to youtube from home a bit different than one from work. You can't tell if the hop is on a fat pipe or a skinny pipe, but I'll bet if a hop is showing packet loss and lag, it's a skinny pipe or it has a lot of traffic going through it.

I believe the recent FiOS slowdowns are almost certainly the result of rapid expansion into Quantum tiers. That's the single most recent event with the largest impact on network congestion. As FiOS subscribers continue to complain about network congestion, it will get addressed. Changes to a tier-1 network are never quickly made. Someone has already said it will take about 3 or 4 months for the network to settle down, same as it did when FiOS pushed the envelope with the new high-speed tiers back in 2010 and several times since then.

One really interesting problem is how google's gigabit fiber in Kansas City will transit to the internet.
CptFudge
join:2010-08-30
New York, NY

1 recommendation

CptFudge to AlanM

Member

to AlanM
Someone from Reddit figured out the solution to remove the whole Google Peering or the whole intentional bandwidth throttling by Google.

»www.reddit.com/r/technol ··· _stream/ sort by: Top

Basically, you need to block out the IP range that causes the bandwidth throttling, while you're trying to watch a Youtube under any video bitrate. I've tested this out and it works really well, utilizes my maximum bandwidth without any buffer.

Block IP from 206.111.0.0 to 206.111.255.255 within your Inbound Rules of your Windows Firewall. This link will help you proceed through the process on how to block the IP ranges: »www.studyblog.net/2011/1 ··· irewall/ Under step 9, where you input the IPs, it's best to select "This IP address range" for easier inputs of your IP range.

Once you set this all up, you'll be able to watch any Youtube video with your glorious speeds.

Pureblood
'Let's Go Brandon'
Premium Member
join:2000-10-18
PorkRoll NJ

Pureblood

Premium Member

Thank you, I just configured the rule and I'll see what happens later today

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish to AlanM

Premium Member

to AlanM
If you want to see where the YouTube /Google content is actually coming from, open a command window and type netstat, this will list all open network connections

From there you will find the IP of where the YouTube is sending the video from. The above IP block is all owned be XO communications.
magamiako
join:2006-01-14
Irvine, CA

magamiako to AlanM

Member

to AlanM
The issue is a Verizon FIOS throttling problem more than anything.

The people saying Google needs to pay Verizon for peering is a very common ISP argument against content providers. And it's one of the pinnacle arguments for network neutrality today, and why it has been such a big thing over the years.

I encourage you to contact the FCC and your representatives.

Essentially, the ISPs pay more for the amount of data that transits through their providers. So, to make this simple, if I'm on Comcast, and you're on Verizon, Verizon pays for the amount of bandwidth you use to me. This is also why they've wanted to heavily throttle peer to peer connections.

So, essentially, it's Verizon holding YouTube hostage for Google so Google pays up some cash.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

1 recommendation

guppy_fish

Premium Member

^^^ lol

Not one sentence in your post is factual
magamiako
join:2006-01-14
Irvine, CA

magamiako

Member

Really?

While it's not directly "Comcast vs. Verizon" in this case (I used companies that people would recognize), let's change it to real organizations:

Cogent vs. Hurricane Electric

Here's a good article from Ars about it as well: »arstechnica.com/features ··· transit/

Let's not forget that on the more content-oriented end; Netflix on Comcast ISP service counts against a data cap while Comcast's own streaming service over the same TCP/IP connectivity does NOT count against your cap. This is a bit more subtle behavior than what Verizon is doing with YouTube.

Verizon's just being a pain in the ass about it to Google because they want them to pony up money.

Looks like a couple of years ago Google paid Verizon for 'faster access': »www.dailytech.com/FCC+En ··· 9278.htm

Here's some more information on the Verizon vs. Google fiasco over the years: »www.dailytech.com/Report ··· 9273.htm

It doesn't take but a quick Google Search.
michael3314
join:2012-09-12

michael3314 to guppy_fish

Member

to guppy_fish
This is a real problem that needs to be fixed. Report the problem to the FCC. We can bitch and moan all day long here but it doesn't mean a thing. Complain to the FCC. They do a great job of resolving issues.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

1 recommendation

guppy_fish to magamiako

Premium Member

to magamiako
None of that happened ... if you spend more time than a Quick search.

NetFix and Google ( primarily YouTube ) are almost 50% of peak traffic now ( more than doubled since 2010 ) and they don't transit other peoples traffic, they only push bits.

Verizon doesn't pay anyone for traffic, as there a tier one network, meaning they ARE the internet, or a large part of it in the US. Verizon has no data caps, they will happily deliver bits day and night.

Google has to pay for the traffic they push, about 10% of the peak bandwidth, just like any other commercial enterprise, the problem for Google, unlike Netflix, which all Netflix customers are paying customers, Google floods out video for "free" to its viewers, and takes in money from advertising, to the tune of almost 3 billion.

Free does pay the bills for footing 10% of the US peak bandwidth

So the fix is YouTube becomes subscription based or Google pays for pushing its Videos, Google then buys peering to match the traffic, just like Nextflix does which by the way isn't having any issues.

Google by the way can purchase peering from many sources, not one has to be Verizon, and they do, like using X/O communications, they need more, its there business and there decision on what to do.

At some point, a company gets so large in their needs, the most cost effective approach is to become a tier one provider, which means a nation wide network which they can plunk down 10's of billions to build and then can push all the traffic ( and carry it ) just like all the other tier one carriers for no peering costs.
guppy_fish

guppy_fish to michael3314

Premium Member

to michael3314
said by michael3314:

This is a real problem that needs to be fixed. Report the problem to the FCC. We can bitch and moan all day long here but it doesn't mean a thing. Complain to the FCC. They do a great job of resolving issues.

Feel free to "contact" the FCC, please post back on how that went

Just curious, what would you like the FCC to do?, tell all teir one carrier to transit data for free? And whom do you expect the tier one networks, that cost 100's of billions to build will get revenue to support and upgrade the networks with?
michael3314
join:2012-09-12

michael3314

Member

I expect the FCC to force Verizon to provide its users with the same service that other internet providers do. No one complains about Comcast or any other major carrier. Its just Verizon.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

said by michael3314:

I expect the FCC to force Verizon to provide its users with the same service that other internet providers do. No one complains about Comcast or any other major carrier. Its just Verizon.

Brighhouse:

»[CFL] Awful video streaming performance

ATT:

»forums.att.com/t5/Featur ··· /3432661
»Youtube sucks for me

Comcast

»productforums.google.com ··· BM4XozcJ

»webapps.stackexchange.co ··· ast-what

Charter

»Youtube buffering/freezing problems?
michael3314
join:2012-09-12

michael3314

Member

Its a nice try but every link you provided was a single instance. This problem with Verizon is widespread and universal.
hubrisnxs
join:2009-12-30
Fountain Valley, CA

1 recommendation

hubrisnxs

Member

it honestly doesn't take more than 10 seconds of googling to see that it is a universal problem with all providers.

About 226,000 results (0.30 seconds)
Search Results
[Speed] Why is Comcast throttling YouTube? - Comcast HSI ...
www.dslreports.com › ... › US Cable Support › Comcast HSI
19 posts - 14 authors - Apr 24, 2010
Forum discussion: I can confirm my connection to YouTube is being drastically throttled, originally noticed it around 300kbps a few days ago, ...
[Speed] Comcast throttling streaming? - 20 posts - Jan 19, 2012
[Speed] Proof that Comcast throttles - 19 posts - Mar 10, 2011
Comcast does not "throttle" YouTube or Hulu - 4 posts - Jan 7, 2009
Problems watching Youtube clips - I hate comcast ... - 18 posts - Jan 6, 2009
More results from dslreports.com »
Comcast throttling youtube [PROOF] - Comcast Help and Support Forums
forums.comcast.com/.../Comcast-throttling-youtube.../119049...
14 posts - Nov 30, 2012
Comcast it throttling my youtube connection. Get this fixed or I cancel next week. DiffProbe release. January 2012. Build 1008. Shaper Detection.
Why Are You Blatantly Throttling Netflix? (Video I... - Jan 5, 2013
Are there any websites Comcast does NOT throttle? - Dec 2, 2012
Throttling down Netflix? - Nov 29, 2012
Comcast Throttling Youtube - Jun 29, 2008
More results from forums.comcast.com »
Is Comcast Throttling YouTube? - Comcast HSI | DSLReports Forums
www.broadbandreports.com › ... › US Cable Support › Comcast HSIShare
17 posts - 11 authors - Sep 8, 2012
Forum discussion: I've noticed lately that YouTube videos load super slow, only playing a few seconds before buffering. Most recently, all ...

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish to michael3314

Premium Member

to michael3314
said by michael3314:

Its a nice try but every link you provided was a single instance. This problem with Verizon is widespread and universal.

There, I fixed it for you ... half the threads quotes were 10-20 page threads about the issue. Feel free to ignore the facts

I'm sure if I spent an hour, I could find another page full of links, which you would spend 20 seconds and say its isn't so without any facts, enough fun for today
magamiako
join:2006-01-14
Irvine, CA

magamiako

Member

For what it's worth, I've had issues with Comcast and streaming Youtube for a while now, often not being able to pull in 1080P videos in any reasonable time.

HOWEVER

Verizon FIOS' performance is completely unacceptable. My good buddy has Verizon, and I have Comcast. The dramatic difference in performance of YouTube is like night and day between the two at the moment, and that's saying something, considering Comcast's isn't all that great, either.

It's extortion, really. That's all it is.

In fact, I found this thread after looking at this reddit post: »www.reddit.com/r/baltimo ··· on_fios/

And the comments I've been having with my buddy over the weekend with his FIOS YouTube performance.
CptFudge
join:2010-08-30
New York, NY

CptFudge

Member

said by magamiako:

Verizon FIOS' performance is completely unacceptable. My good buddy has Verizon, and I have Comcast. The dramatic difference in performance of YouTube is like night and day between the two at the moment, and that's saying something, considering Comcast's isn't all that great, either.

Why don't you try to block the inbound IPs hosted by XO Communication and see if Verizon is still "throttling" your bandwidth to watch Youtube videos? I'm pretty sure Google forces many users, regardless of the ISP, to redirect them to specific XO IPs so the Google servers can handle large amount of traffic. They rather cache their streams to prevent server crashes, spending less money to upgrade servers.
michael3314
join:2012-09-12

michael3314 to hubrisnxs

Member

to hubrisnxs
Do you think we can at least keep it to this year? All of your posts are two or three years ago. The only current one is about Netfix which is not in this conversation. Lets deal with the current problem.

bohratom
My Jersey Giants finally winning again..
join:2011-07-07
Red Bank NJ

2 edits

bohratom to CptFudge

Member

to CptFudge
said by CptFudge:

Block IP from 206.111.0.0 to 206.111.255.255 within your Inbound Rules of your Windows Firewall.

Those IP's are not listed in wireshark (or using netstat) when viewing youtube videos yet I still like others have the buffering issue. I guess Ill start generating a list of the source youtube IPs and throw them into my routers firewall list.
navyson
join:2011-07-15
Upper Marlboro, MD

navyson to AlanM

Member

to AlanM
Guys,

It is not a universal problem. I can stream 1080p videos regularly at work with no problems. No buffering. At home, a 360p video on my 50/20 FIOS connection struggles most times.

What makes me more disappointed is that I just recently upgraded from 25/25 to 50/25 and that made absolutely no difference.

I am thinking of downgrading right now save my $10 a month

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish to AlanM

Premium Member

to AlanM
Well since people keep saying its FIOS, I'll keep it repeating with the facts. Nothing in Verizon control is causing the delays and buffering. This is 100% with in Google's control.

When you press "play" in the YouTube player, Google decides from where that stream will be sent to your device, its not the IP when you ping YouTube, it can only be check when your playing the video ( netstat or other packet sniffer ). As the recent posting shows, on the Time-Warner network, its defaulted to an overloaded X/O commutations caching server, which Google decides on what to use.

You can pound your feet all you want, these are the facts. Google is throttling, Not Verizon as there is nothing Verizon alone can change to make it work any different.
guppy_fish

guppy_fish to michael3314

Premium Member

to michael3314
said by michael3314:

Do you think we can at least keep it to this year? All of your posts are two or three years ago. The only current one is about Netfix which is not in this conversation. Lets deal with the current problem.

I used a one month time frame on all my links ...
knarf829
join:2007-06-02

knarf829 to guppy_fish

Member

to guppy_fish
Why do the folks who are absolutely convinced this is a Verizon issue absolutely refuse to contact Verizon about it? Getting all fist-shaky and ragey about it on a message board doesn't seem like the best problem solving technique in that situation.

Or the media? Comcast throttled Bittorent - largely used to transfer pirated content - and the media went apeshit. You don't think the media (Comcast's NBC in particular) would be interested if Verizon were throttling the legal and popular YouTube?

As many have said, this is not a Verizon directed issue, and the resolution to it cannot be Verizon directed.
CptFudge
join:2010-08-30
New York, NY

CptFudge to bohratom

Member

to bohratom
said by bohratom:

Those IP's are not listed in wireshark (or just using netstat) when viewing youtube videos yet I still like others have the buffering issue. I guess Ill start generating a list of the source youtube IPs and throw them into my routers firewall list.

IP's won't be listed if you simply ping out Youtube. The player has its own logic to redirect your bandwidth through caching servers such as the IPs listed. These servers purposely throttle your bandwidth to allow more connections, hence Youtube will suffer terrible speeds upon viewing a video. Blocking the listed IPs I suggested will avoid the Youtube player's logic and reverts back to the Google's datacenters.

I would love to hear someone's response in attempting to try out this block and see if there's significant improvement.