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mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to rocca

Re: CRTC Decision

said by rocca:

Add a couple zeros after that (no decimals) and we're all set!

:)

The math for this isn't quite as dismal as we've all been making it out to be, though. Even with a lot of subscribers who want to use tons of prime-time bandwidth, statistical averaging kicks in and helps keep things affordable.

Not every "300GB prime time" account is going to be streaming every night, or even at the exact same instants when they are.

Throw enough of them into a large enough pool, and peak bandwidth used will be quite a bit below what one gets with simple multiplication. That's why we all use retail ISPs rather than dedicated bandwidth connections. We know we don't need it 100% 24/7, or even 100% 6/7 during prime time. So we're willing to share to a degree by pooling with others.

And that's the business model for an ISP, too. So let's not just roll over and play dead when people toss out 2X and 3X current rates as "necessary."

The recent CRTC rate adjustments for Rogers only increased costs by perhaps 10% overall. I don't know how much ISPs may (or may not) have been "underbilling" on Rogers, but let's say they guessed low by another 10%. So this ought to result in no more than a 20% increase in retail rates for plans very similar to what we have today, or for plans that only meter prime-time usage.

It'll be interesting to see what the various ISPs come out with for rates. I don't expect Teksavvy's rates for Rogers to change by very much, if any, until they go aggregated, because their costs haven't gone up by more than a few percent.

In the past, Start.ca rates were similar to Teksavvy's rates, but with a slight discount. That will change, since Start.ca is already on the more expensive aggregated setup, which just got 10% more expensive than before.

But 2X or 3X current rates? No way.

Cheers


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to Guru
said by Guru:

Rocca, last week you said we'd know end of this week....are you going to be able to come up with something by then? Just curious of course as we are anxious...

Very close.

For cable, at this time I don't anticipate a significant (or perhaps any) change on the Red side, but just trying to figure out a way to manage Cogeco accounts without taking a drastic usage cut. Just increasing costs won't help, ie even $5/customer doesn't do much when CBB is that far out of whack and puts us too close to retail Cogeco pricing to be attractive. If we can come up with a 'heavy users plan' that incorporates shifting or limiting traffic at peak that might help alleviate some of those existing users that are skewing the average currently and enabling us to keep the existing packages at/near where they are. With speeds where they are now it only takes 1-2% of users to make a significant difference to peak requirements.

On the DSL side, we have our packages done (they've been done for a couple weeks as the Bell CBB wasn't that far off from where we projected) but had some backend development work to do to support the new plans. That work was completed yesterday, so just need staff training and signoff from our service desk manager and then will get them posted.

nirajshah7

join:2008-11-12
Markham, ON
Rocca.. are you going to provide 50/10 DSL where available?

sssscary

join:2007-10-23
Brockville, ON
reply to Crashrun2003
I am for time shifting traffic, but against speed limiting. Just my 2 cents

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by rocca:

Indeed, appreciate the feedback. I don't think we'll be able to make everyone happy, but we'll keep doing our best to provide an excellent service at a fair price.

The problem is that everyone wants unlimited 60/2 for $20/month.

Just because I know it isn't plausible, it doesn't mean I don't still want it!

Though faster and cheaper, please

londoner1

join:2007-04-26
London, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to rocca
Now this will no doubt anger some....however could Start or any provider for that matter simply cancel the service for those few gluttonous users?....Clear abuse of an 'unlimited' concept (think usage in the TB range)....really what residential ISP would want that customer....sure maybe Rogers, Bell, etc might accept them (with an unlimited plan) but they have the advantage of so many more users...

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
said by londoner1:

Clear abuse of an 'unlimited' concept (think usage in the TB range)...

A user transferring TB's monthly only has a negative impact when those transfers occur regularly during prime-time peak hours. If they happen outside of peak hours, they don't cost anybody anything extra.

But they do currently violate the service terms that Start.ca offers. Hopefully that will get fixed -- unlimited offpeak transfers is something I think a lot of us would like to have sanctioned. (*)I'm not after TB's here myself, but a few hundred GB extra would be quite useful.

Cheers


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to londoner1
said by londoner1:

Now this will no doubt anger some....however could Start or any provider for that matter simply cancel the service for those few gluttonous users?

Some ISP's do have 'fair use' clauses that enable termination if the usage is x times the average, but personally I'd prefer being upfront with it. If we say 'unlimited' then it has to be that IMHO, now it could say something like 'unlimited, no overage charges and full speed until you hit x GB and then y speed', but again being upfront about it. Just telling people after the fact that they've used more than some number I had in my head and therefore I'm cancelling their service isn't too cool with me.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to nirajshah7
said by nirajshah7:

Rocca.. are you going to provide 50/10 DSL where available?

Yes, I don't know on the timing yet of the VDSL2 based services though - there are still lots of things I don't like about them and it's such a new service that there are going to be bugs to work out still, but yes, it will become part of our offering at some point.

madchikun

join:2004-07-18
Canada
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

Some ISP's do have 'fair use' clauses that enable termination if the usage is x times the average, but personally I'd prefer being upfront with it. If we say 'unlimited' then it has to be that IMHO, now it could say something like 'unlimited, no overage charges and full speed until you hit x GB and then y speed', but again being upfront about it. Just telling people after the fact that they've used more than some number I had in my head and therefore I'm cancelling their service isn't too cool with me.

And that is why we appreciate Start so much! I know I've experienced the kind of surprise that you've mentioned with other service providers and it is not a pleasant feeling.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7

1 edit
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

said by londoner1:

Now this will no doubt anger some....however could Start or any provider for that matter simply cancel the service for those few gluttonous users?

Some ISP's do have 'fair use' clauses that enable termination if the usage is x times the average, but personally I'd prefer being upfront with it. If we say 'unlimited' then it has to be that IMHO, now it could say something like 'unlimited, no overage charges and full speed until you hit x GB and then y speed', but again being upfront about it. Just telling people after the fact that they've used more than some number I had in my head and therefore I'm cancelling their service isn't too cool with me.

 
Some observations :

(1) Mister Rocca, your fifthrightness about things is appreciated.

(2) A few 'select' users who are friends and relatives of Angelo could still screw an IISP's bandwidth capacity demand during peak periods while taking MUCH less than 'x' GB of usage to do it.

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
-
START Forum »Start Communications
Or you can still use Canadian Broadband.



DrugTito

join:2013-01-17
canada
a few? funny.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
 
[takes a bow]


silvercat

join:2007-11-07
reply to rocca
said by rocca:

...
If we say 'unlimited' then it has to be that IMHO, now it could say something like 'unlimited, no overage charges and full speed until you hit x GB and then y speed', but again being upfront about it.
...

You know what, i'm okay with this. What i mean is, it would be nice having an "unlimited" package, where a user could download all they want off-peak -- and then have a set amount of GB on-peak (0 GB / 100 GB / 150 GB or 200 GB), and if they approach or start to go over that limit, then throttle the download speed during on-peak. At least that's one solution. Or give them the choice of having their speed throttled, or paying $0.40 - $0.50 / GB for extra usage during on-peak.


silvercat

join:2007-11-07
Even a better suggestion (if a "Downloader's DSL Reports Special" package is going to be created) is to have a "Prime Time" fund. You pay into this account (any time you want). Funds in that account go towards paying for any extra usage during on-peak hours.

For example, if there is an unlimited package, with on-peak starting at 0 GB, cost for any Prime-Time usage would be taken from this "Prime-Time" fund, which a user can top off at any time. For a package with Prime-Time usage starting at 100 GB, cost for any extra usage for that month would be taken from the Prime-Time fund, with funds in this special account carrying over to the next month, and so on. If the balance of the Prime-Time fund reaches $0, and the user fails to top it off, throttling the download speed during on-peak could be a possibility, until such user adds more funds.


jasmo34

join:2008-03-20
London, ON
reply to rocca
Hmmm... Some of these suggestions are starting to sound like the plans when UBB was introduced. Even TSI was going to 'severely' throttle you when you reached your cap, at least on some plans; I remember that because people were worried their VOIP would not even work at 64K, and many asked TSI to make it 128K!

Rocca...

What aspects of a user's connection can you 'control' and 'dynamically adjust' on a per-user basis, at your end?

-Can you control (reduce) the connection speed at any time of your choosing?
-Can you adjust the connection speed automatically, based on time-of-day, and a person's account settings/status?
-Can those adjustments be done 'mid-session'? (without the user logging out and back in)

Assuming your systems and equipment can do these things, is there a performance overhead in doing them dynamically? Would that affect only that line, or would it impact a larger group?

Of course, your metering/logging/accounting systems must also handle all these options. How SMART are your METERS?

To me, a lot of this 'seems' more feasible for DSL, because of the logins. I have no idea if any of this is possible on cable.

mario9999998

join:2000-08-25
Canada
This is essentially like Rogers' Speed Boost (with line speeds boosted up to the max rated line speed, but not boosted to mitigate congested periods).


Boo_Guy

@rogers.com
reply to Crashrun2003
Im probably too late to have any effect on what Start is going to do plan-wise but for me Id be happiest with peak hour throttling. Acanacs plans since the CRTC decision have switched to 14/1 during peak 7pm -12am, down from 28/1 the rest of the time.

I know Im a medium to heavy user but I usually shift my downloading to off-peak anyway so that others in my household can use the internet without our router getting bogged down. Id probably peg my usage at a minimum of 160gb a month without a cap, but ive honestly only been keeping track since rogers brought in their caps. (what a rip). But I want that unlimited, if I have to pay more for it like in Starts basic plan then I'll do it, or if its peak throttling Id take that too.

Im honestly waiting to see Starts new plans before I leave Rogers, Im tired of the overage fees and fast lines with low caps. Start seems like a pretty good company, Id really like to go with them so having some way to get unlimited at $40-65 a month would be great, otherwise I'll be probably be switching to Acanac to take my chances with them.

Just 2 cents from a lurker


ReGenesis

@bell.ca
reply to jasmo34
As the point of this conversation is to develop different packages designed to take variable internet connectivity into a fixed maximum (the connections to Cogeco), I would also like to know how this happens.

For example, in Cogeco land around my house you have basic, standard, advanced and pro packages. If you hit the maximum throughput with your connections to cogeco, what happens?

Do all requests get prioritized equally and everyone slows down? Or do pro packages (because they pay more) get higher quality of service then an basic package? Or Vice Versa as to not slow down the masses for a few guys with 60Mbps connections that are saturating the network?


jasmo34

join:2008-03-20
London, ON

1 edit
reply to Crashrun2003
Just thought of a couple more possible flies in the ozonol...

-Can Bell appeal that CRTC decision on their CBB rates, and throw everything into disarray again on the DSL side?

-Are some of the cable connection rates, at least with the Rogers new speeds (25/2, 35/3, 45/4), still being applied on an 'interim' basis? Might those actually get worse (higher) in the future, once a 'final' rate is granted by the CRTC?

I'm just thinking these possibilities might make the IISP's move carefully for now!

Of course, these types of worries may just be 'business as usual' for the IISP's.


silvercat

join:2007-11-07
said by jasmo34:

-Can Bell appeal that CRTC decision on their CBB rates, and throw everything into disarray again on the DSL side?

In my opinion, i think Bell would be smart to just "work" with the independent ISP's (become a good partner, so both sides can profit). Bell can steal a lot of customers from Cogeco ($25 per mbps CBB rates versus around $10 (i think ?) mbps CBB rates from Bell) -- doesn't matter if they are Bell retail customers or IISP customers -- Bell still makes money. If Bell is willing, it could end up being a good arrangement (like it has been in the past between them and the Independents).


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
said by silvercat:

said by jasmo34:

-Can Bell appeal that CRTC decision on their CBB rates, and throw everything into disarray again on the DSL side?

In my opinion, I think Bell would be smart to just "work" with the independent ISP's....

 
"And so goes the ebb and flow of customer churn...."

Also, if Bell were to try to 'play nice' with the IISPs for the next while at least, besides that they might lure some folks away from IISP Cable TPIA, those customers' current IISP would still make a cut if the customer still involved THEM in the equation, rather than an alternate IISP.

IISPs could play one incumbent against another, as to where they would steer their end-customers (and customers in fast enough service areas might switch back to DSL if install fees were low enough), which might well induce the Cablecos to blink on CBB pricing, no matter WHAT they had already convinced the CRTC that their justifiable expenses are.

And there is nothing to say that a Cableco cannot even now negotiate a less expensive 'Off-Tariff' deal with an IISP, even for AGG-POI, and some of them might be open to the idea if they were gently nudged by tangible 'bean-countable' customer loss projections/observations, rather than if forced by the CRTC.

Money talks, and all that....

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
-
START Forum »Start Communications
Or you can still use Canadian Broadband.



Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
reply to silvercat
said by silvercat:

....it would be nice having an "unlimited" package, where a user could download all they want off-peak -- and then have a set amount of GB on-peak (0 GB / 100 GB / 150 GB or 200 GB), and if they approach or start to go over that limit, then throttle the download speed during on-peak. At least that's one solution. Or give them the choice of having their speed throttled, or paying $0.40 - $0.50 / GB for extra usage during on-peak.

 
Those ideas might work, and so might some of your following posts's variations.

Of course the questions which Jasmo next raised would need to be answered first, to see what would be technologically possible of all this, regarding account management.

Gotta wait for 'Da Boss' to weigh in again....


tom_tom

join:2009-01-17
toronto
reply to Crashrun2003
Rocca, I would like to see at least one cheap package from Start in Red territory. Not everybody needs unlimited data and blazing speeds at all times! I would like something with a monthly cap AND throttling at peak hours. It would be sweet to have unlimited usage there at night, but that would just be a bonus.
Is it possible to have a package like that? Something like 25/2, with 150GB cap, throttled to 12Mbps during peak hours, and unlimited usage between 2AM and 11AM for $29

Is it possible?


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by tom_tom:

Something like 25/2, with 150GB cap, throttled to 12Mbps during peak hours, and unlimited usage between 2AM and 11AM for $29 Is it possible?

Um, that might be a little aggressive.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to silvercat
said by silvercat:

In my opinion, i think Bell would be smart to just "work" with the independent ISP's

For a few months there seems to be a genuine renewed interest in this, it's a little early to tell how fruitful it'll be but it's good to see a change in direction.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to jasmo34
Almost everything is possible, some of the scenarios pitched require very specialized equipment, some of the scenarios can be done with existing routers and edge devices. With Rogers currently per-user anything is painful, but that will change in about a month. With Cogeco it's easier, but individual speed buckets are pretty tricky and generally you create policing classes for groups of users. Ie, we could create an 'unlimited user' class that shared x amount of bandwidth for everyone in it, but to limit a subset of users to specific individual speeds is a lot more difficult on cable (and very easy on dsl).


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to ReGenesis
We try to avoid saturation, if it does happen then everyone has fair share at the pipes, however statistically speaking the people with faster speeds will still get more bits through than people with slower speeds.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to jasmo34
said by jasmo34:

Can Bell appeal that CRTC decision on their CBB rates, and throw everything into disarray again on the DSL side?

It's very unlikely, for reasons I can't say due to NDA.

said by jasmo34:

-Are some of the cable connection rates, at least with the Rogers new speeds (25/2, 35/3, 45/4), still being applied on an 'interim'

They are final. Even though the 2011-703 mentioned them as the old speeds they are actually referring to the new CBB based speeds in reality, ie nothing has changed for the disaggregated TPIA other than a 6 month extension for migration.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
Premium
join:2009-06-15
START Today!
kudos:7
said by rocca:

said by jasmo34:

-Are some of the cable connection rates, at least with the Rogers new speeds (25/2, 35/3, 45/4), still being applied on an 'interim'

They are final. Even though the 2011-703 mentioned them as the old speeds they are actually referring to the new CBB based speeds in reality, ie nothing has changed for the disaggregated TPIA other than a 6 month extension for migration.

 
Which simply put, means that IISPs such as TSI have the option of procrastinating the announcement of their Red package changes a bit longer, as long as they are not ready to serve areas where they would need AGG-TPIA ?

And all IISPs could hold off on announcing DSL package changes if they choose to, as the Bell CBB rates went down ?

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !