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jaberi

join:2010-08-13

Ontario surrogate mother slapped with $1,400 hospital bill

Motherhood used to be simpler. You went to the hospital, in most cases, gave birth and that was it. Is it a boy or girl, does it have all its bits, does dad have the obligatory cigars to hand out?

But with the development of reproductive technology a new class of moms is discovering some bottom-line complications that happen not in the delivery room but over in the hospital's finance office.

The National Post reports surrogate mothers in Ontario are being billed for hospital services after giving birth even though they have provincial medicare coverage.

The reason: The babies were being taken out of the country.

»ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybre···508.html

»news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/21···al-care/


jaberi

join:2010-08-13

why would a couple from spain seek a canadian surrogate mother, why the preference?



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

1 recommendation

reply to jaberi

This is a murky one. Frankly, the bill for services is legitimate. The charges are for the care of the child, who once relinquished to foreign adopters, no longer qualify for provincial benefits. It's as if the child never existed as a Canadian citizen, which is legally true, and the child should be charged the same rate as any nonresident should be. Presumably, the fee she charged for being a surrogate more than covered a $1400 medical bill. I do have a problem with Canadians getting free care and profiting from it.

Now, if this was an open adoption in the more traditional sense, then I would have issue with it.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


jaberi

join:2010-08-13

but if the new-born child stays in canada for 3 months then the fees a waived..did i read that correct?



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

Yes, all provinces have a 3 month residency rule for health care coverage. I suppose in a quasi legal interpretation, the child would be a landed immigrant.



milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2

Didn't the baby already reside in Canada for 9 months?


jaberi

join:2010-08-13

don't be giving them any ideas



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

Yes, all provinces have a 3 month residency rule for health care coverage. I suppose in a quasi legal interpretation, the child would be a landed immigrant.

When my son was born he had a health card number assigned to him a few minutes after we arrived in the nursery together while his mother was still in the recovery room being cleaned up after the C-section. The permanent card arrived in the mail a little more than a week later.

I suppose if the adoption was formalized right after birth and no health card number was assigned you could run into issues.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

1 edit
reply to jaberi

said by jaberi:

why would a couple from spain seek a canadian surrogate mother, why the preference?

So they can hide the surrogacy from the authorities in Spain. My guess is that they'll come back to Spain claiming to have adopted the child. Their child can't be added to the spanish registry and brought back into the country if they admit to surrogacy.

And hey, if born here, their child is Canadian. Might be an incentive later if they don't want to remain in Spain. (I'm not sure how this would work, but it might be part of it.)


koira
Keep Fighting Michael
Premium
join:2004-02-16
reply to jaberi

Several aspects of this need examination including human trafficking, citizenship loopholes. Why can't they find a surrogate closer to home? There is more to it than has been disclosed.



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to shaner

i don't know about the child not being a citizen or having to wait 3 months for coverage.

There was a story a year or so ago, in which a professional couple came to Canada, the woman was in her 2nd trimester (giving ample time to qualify for Ohip). However she went into labour early, and was given a 22K tab. The kids tab was covered because the child was considered a Canadian.

Jaberi, that logic makes no sense, that logic says if a child is born with complications, they aren't covered till they are 3 months old.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

said by elwoodblues:

i don't know about the child not being a citizen or having to wait 3 months for coverage.

There was a story a year or so ago, in which a professional couple came to Canada, the woman was in her 2nd trimester (giving ample time to qualify for Ohip). However she went into labour early, and was given a 22K tab. The kids tab was covered because the child was considered a Canadian.

Jaberi, that logic makes no sense, that logic says if a child is born with complications, they aren't covered till they are 3 months old.

In this case though, the child isn't Canadian. Yes, they meet all the traditional requirements, except the fact that the birth mother is relinquishing all rights to the child and transferring those rights to a foreign national. I can see how a lawyer can argue the child is not a Canadian citizen and should be charged non-citizen rates for health care.

To all of the rest of us, yes our children qualify for health care at the moment of birth because they meet the required citizenship requirements. What I'm saying here is that because of the quasi legal citizenship status of these surrogate children, they are essentially being considered to be landed immigrants in the eyes of the Health Insurance System.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to A Lurker

said by A Lurker:

said by jaberi:

why would a couple from spain seek a canadian surrogate mother, why the preference?

So they can hide the surrogacy from the authorities in Spain. My guess is that they'll come back to Spain claiming to have adopted the child. Their child can't be added to the spanish registry and brought back into the country if they admit to surrogacy.

And hey, if born here, their child is Canadian. Might be an incentive later if they don't want to remain in Spain. (I'm not sure how this would work, but it might be part of it.)

That's not part of it at all. From the linked article.

quote:
The fact that both pre-natal and post-natal care for Canadian surrogates is covered by medicare has actually made this countrys carriers more appealing to some foreign parents, at least in comparison with American carriers, whose medical costs must always be picked up by the intended parents, she said.
And this...surrogace in Italy is illegal, but legal in Spain.
»nova-clinic.ru/enservices52/

This rule also applies to inter-provincial surrogacy as well. It's just that if the adopting couple are Canadian, it's much easier to track them down and hand them a bill.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to jaberi

While I am not a fan of the practice of international surrogacy..

Why is a Canadian being billed for medical services used? We employ universal health coverage, the surrogacy (mother) is a taxpaying Canadian who deserves her universal service.

IMHO That baby is "Canadian" well before birth and should have the right to universal health coverage from the time of birth and beyond.
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

In this case though, the child isn't Canadian. Yes, they meet all the traditional requirements, except the fact that the birth mother is relinquishing all rights to the child and transferring those rights to a foreign national. I can see how a lawyer can argue the child is not a Canadian citizen and should be charged non-citizen rates for health care.

Unless born to foreign diplomats serving in Canada, anyone born in Canada is a Canadian citizen - end of story. In this case, the child is and will always remain a Canadian citizen, regardless of where the adoptive parents are taking the child.

Health coverage has nothing to do with citizenship though, it's all based on residency. An American with Canadian residency is entitled to health insurance, while a Canadian with American residency is not. If the child was deemed to be a non-resident immediately after birth then I could see the child's own post-natal care not being paid for by provincial insurance. Thing is, as I said before, my son had a health card number assigned to him as soon as someone was able to sit down and do the paperwork only a few minutes after he was born. It would ultimately depend on whether or not the birth mother had legal custody. If the birth mother's name is on the hospital paperwork, at some point or another I would have to think she had custody, and as a result I have to wonder how they justify billing as a non-resident, and billing the resident mother with OHIP at that.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to I_H8_Spam

The surrogates tab should be covered, but not the child's. Shaner has a point, the mother,in exchange for payment, is carrying the baby and has given up the rights to child long before conception,to a foreign national.

However I don't agree that the same rules apply interprovincally. No matter where they are from, all parties are Canadian.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

1 edit
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

Unless born to foreign diplomats serving in Canada, anyone born in Canada is a Canadian citizen - end of story. In this case, the child is and will always remain a Canadian citizen, regardless of where the adoptive parents are taking the child.

Actually, that is not true. We don't have anchor babies.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_n···n_Canada

quote:
Section 3(2) of the current act states that Canadian citizenship is not granted to a child born in Canada if, at the time of his/her birth, neither of his/her parents was a Canadian citizen or Canadian permanent resident and either parent was a diplomatic or consular officer or other representative or employee of a foreign government in Canada or an employee of such a person.
In this case, the legal parents are not Canadian citizens and therefore neither is the child.

Now, can the child claim Canadian Citizenship status at a later date based on biological lineage? I doubt it. I suppose it depends on the type of surrogacy involved. Was the egg the birthmoms or the "adoptive" mother's? It's a conundrum for sure.

As a caveat, I am going through a similar situation right now as my 22 year old biological daughter who was given up for adoption at birth in the USA is applying to have her Canadian Citizenship restored. All feedback we're getting from the Canadian government says it can be done, but it's a long process.

Edit: Whoops, looks like I read that wiki quote wrong as I missed the "and" part. But, I'm pretty sure citizenship isn't granted just on the basis of being born here. There are a number of American babies born in Canada each year, and somehow I think I read somewhere that they're not Canadian citizens. I could be wrong of course.

--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to elwoodblues

said by elwoodblues:

The surrogates tab should be covered, but not the child's. Shaner has a point, the mother,in exchange for payment, is carrying the baby and has given up the rights to child long before conception,to a foreign national.

However I don't agree that the same rules apply interprovincally. No matter where they are from, all parties are Canadian.

I was wrong on the first point. It is illegal in Canada to be paid for surrogacy.

As for your second statement, while the child definitely is Canadian, payment for health care is a provincial responsibility and each province has a 3 month residency requirement. What should happen is the adoptive parents coverage should kick in.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/
Expand your moderator at work


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to Gone

Re: Ontario surrogate mother slapped with $1,400 hospital bill

Gone, I did make an error in stating the citizenship status of the child. I apologize.

»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201···hip.html



Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico

2 recommendations

reply to jaberi

She is renting out her womb for profit*, I don't see an issue with it, why should we use public money to subsidize the wants of infertile couples of another nation to procreate.

(*By law a surrogate is entitled to collect to out-of-pocket costs related to the surrogacy, however too often additional payments can be funnelled around creatively. In addition consultants seem to walk away with large amounts of money for their services of finding a willing surrogate. It is just a big grey area, one that should be better regulated, monitored and enforced.)



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

quote:
Section 3(2) of the current act states that Canadian citizenship is not granted to a child born in Canada if, at the time of his/her birth, neither of his/her parents was a Canadian citizen or Canadian permanent resident and either parent was a diplomatic or consular officer or other representative or employee of a foreign government in Canada or an employee of such a person.
In this case, the legal parents are not Canadian citizens and therefore neither is the child.

You read your own quote wrong, and I highlighted where the difference lies. There is an and between both statements, not an or. The citizenship exception for babies born here only applies to children both of diplomats who are not already citizens or permanent residents.

So yes, Canada does have "anchor babies" as you described and anyone born in Canada except for the children of non-citizen/perm resident diplomat as per the above-noted exception are Canadian citizens by birth, not the least of which includes the child born in this particular situation.

To highlight the whole "anchor baby" thing, a refugee claimant who gave birth to a child in Canada would have a Canadian citizen for a child without exception, and this would occur even though the claimants themselves may eventually be denied and deported at some point in the future. Whether or not that is right is another debate, but that's exactly what can and does happen and it's all legal.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

Gone, I did make an error in stating the citizenship status of the child. I apologize.

»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201···hip.html

... and I replied before I saw this reply, hehe.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to shaner

What I'm getting at Shaner, is if I break a leg while in Alberta, the tab is covered. Same scenario when it comes to birthing, if the kid drops in another province, again under universal Health care, the tab should once again be covered.



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

Oh, you're right. But if you break a leg in Alberta, OHIP gets billed for it. AHS coverage doesn't kick in until you establish residency for 3 months. Typically, this is a seamless process. However, this inter-provincial surrogacy is not typical.

I don't disagree with you, but I can see the governmental red tape involved with getting the Quebec health insurance to pay for the birth of a child born in Ontario to an Ontario woman covered by OHIP and trying to get OHIP to pay for the birth of a child whose legal parents at birth are residents of Quebec. Clearly the child is covered, but the question is which government insurance policy pays for it.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/

Expand your moderator at work


Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to I_H8_Spam

Re: Ontario surrogate mother slapped with $1,400 hospital bill

said by I_H8_Spam:

While I am not a fan of the practice of international surrogacy..

Why is a Canadian being billed for medical services used? We employ universal health coverage, the surrogacy (mother) is a taxpaying Canadian who deserves her universal service.

IMHO That baby is "Canadian" well before birth and should have the right to universal health coverage from the time of birth and beyond.

Wait, you want me to subsidize with my tax dollars the birth of a commercialized kid in which the surrogate mother made $40,000 off him? Yeah right.


FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to Thane_Bitter

said by Thane_Bitter:

She is renting out her womb for profit*, I don't see an issue with it, why should we use public money to subsidize the wants of infertile couples of another nation to procreate.

I agree.
--
I will be perfectly happy if the budget cuts specified in the Budget Control Act go into effect. 3 cheers for the sequester. Take the money from the drunken federal spenders.


I_H8_Spam

join:2004-03-10
St Catharines, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to Xstar_Lumini

said by Xstar_Lumini:

Wait, you want me to subsidize with my tax dollars the birth of a commercialized kid in which the surrogate mother made $40,000 off him? Yeah right.

While I am not a fan of the practice of international surrogacy. What I take exception with is some hospital bureaucrat deciding to deny this baby(and others) it's universal health coverage at a profiteering whim.

"The Grand River Hospital in Kitchener, Ont., will charge intended parents from outside the province unless the baby stays in Ontario for at least three months"

---

In December 1978 my mother who then resided in Mississauga flew to Vancouver to spend Christmas with my soon to be father. At the time she was carrying 6 month old me, during the visit she developed an staph infection that resulted in my coming to term at 26 week a whole 2lbs, 9oz.

No bills, no inter-provincial bickering, sure it was a different time.
--
AFK: Attack, fight, kill!! The healer is telling you to go pull mobs.
WTF: Way to fight! The healer is applauding your tactical genius


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

And this...surrogace in Italy is illegal, but legal in Spain.
»nova-clinic.ru/enservices52/

I got the opposite answer when looking for legality in Spain.

»www.velascolawyers.com/en/civil-···ain.html
(Since this is a Spanish law firm, I'm assuming it's correct.)

You may not be thrown in jail over it, however, the child may need a Visa to enter Spain (and currently not considered a spanish citizen).