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thestealth
Premium
join:2009-11-10
Lasalle, QC

Plumbing Question - New Sump Pump

Need to install a sump in my basement and was wondering how I should tie it into my existing plumbing (see diagram below). I have no choice but to put the pump to the right of my sink. Any suggestions?




LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada

It doesn't connect to the existing plumbing...

The weeping tile (internal or external) typical get routed into the sump box; the water is the discharged away from the house, typically onto the ground, into a drainage ditch; or into a French drain. It's typically illegal to discharge into the sewer system.

Why do you have to install one?



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to thestealth

Yes, be sure to check code for your area. It would suck to go through the expense of a sump installation, only to have to modify it after the fact. The owners of the house we rented a few years back ran into that exact problem.



dcurrey
Premium
join:2004-06-29
reply to thestealth

If I am not mistaken I think the inspector mentioned when I purchased my house that it normal for the sub pump to discharge in storm drain system in my area.

Most areas don't allow them to be connected to sewer system.


thestealth
Premium
join:2009-11-10
Lasalle, QC
reply to thestealth

The house was built in 1954, no french drain. The reason for install is that the basement floods every spring and sometimes in the summer. So if not into the drain what would I need to do to bring it outside?



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to thestealth

What's the nature of the flooding? Backup from the existing drains/sewers, or water inflitration?

The city (or a licensed plumber in your area) can tell you if it's allowed... If you have a combined sewer, odds are good you won't be allowed to connect a sump pump or weepers into it. If you have a dedicated storm drain, in addition to the sanitary sewer, then it's possibly still allowed.

What's the property like? Detached house? Duplex? Town/row house? Do you have a yard? All factors that play into options for handling the water..


thestealth
Premium
join:2009-11-10
Lasalle, QC

The flooding comes up through the floor, hydro static pressure is my guess.

The building is a duplex, there is some yard, maybe 30 ft or so to the back fence and the same to the street. Also 8ft on either side to the fence.



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to thestealth

Do you know if the house has an existing weeping system?

If not, you'll likely want interior weepers as well as the sump box and pump... It's s pretty serious job; breaking up the floor, etc. It can be a DIY job, but not something to take lightly...

Have you talked to any local plumbers or foundation repair companies, for scopes of work or quotes?



StillLearn
Premium
join:2002-03-21
Streamwood, IL

Maybe you and your attached neighbor could coordinate. If you dig two pits in the same project, things may go easier.

If only you dig the pit, then you may keep your neighbor's basement dry. Maybe you could at least get help on that basis.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to thestealth

lasalle, most of lasalle has combined storm and sanitary sewers, no storm sewers persay (hence the smell on lasalle blvd around the police station) its pretty common for houses in lasalle to have sump pumps into the city sewers but im not sure of the legality. I know the duplexes in the avenues (between bishop power and gagne) that were built in the 60s have their french drains going into the city sewer.


thestealth
Premium
join:2009-11-10
Lasalle, QC

said by telco_mtl:

lasalle, most of lasalle has combined storm and sanitary sewers, no storm sewers persay (hence the smell on lasalle blvd around the police station) its pretty common for houses in lasalle to have sump pumps into the city sewers but im not sure of the legality. I know the duplexes in the avenues (between bishop power and gagne) that were built in the 60s have their french drains going into the city sewer.

So assuming we can tie the pump into the drain (as there are many examples in my area it seems), where would I do it in my diagram?

No weeping tile at all. Before undertaking an internal weeping tile project, we thought of just doing the pit to see how well it would work. The duplex is upper/lower, so my neighbour is above me, so no shared basement to worry about. I have already had some quotes done and cannot afford a full weeping system at the moment, hence just trying out a pit to see if it helps. If it does, I may attempt to add an internal weeping system in the future, but for now I will dig a pit and put a pump.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by thestealth:

said by telco_mtl:

lasalle, most of lasalle has combined storm and sanitary sewers, no storm sewers persay (hence the smell on lasalle blvd around the police station) its pretty common for houses in lasalle to have sump pumps into the city sewers but im not sure of the legality. I know the duplexes in the avenues (between bishop power and gagne) that were built in the 60s have their french drains going into the city sewer.

So assuming we can tie the pump into the drain (as there are many examples in my area it seems), where would I do it in my diagram?

No weeping tile at all. Before undertaking an internal weeping tile project, we thought of just doing the pit to see how well it would work. The duplex is upper/lower, so my neighbour is above me, so no shared basement to worry about. I have already had some quotes done and cannot afford a full weeping system at the moment, hence just trying out a pit to see if it helps. If it does, I may attempt to add an internal weeping system in the future, but for now I will dig a pit and put a pump.

most people tee into the pipe and install a standpipe like on a washer


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to thestealth

said by thestealth:

So assuming we can tie the pump into the drain (as there are many examples in my area it seems), where would I do it in my diagram?

Pretty much anywhere as long as it's properly installed to prevent backflowing into the sink or washer.

Remember though, just because it once was acceptable doesn't mean it's permitted anymore. The EPA in the US is in the midst of requiring municipalities to separate storm and sanitary sewers to prevent raw sewage overflow during peak usage during storms and such. It also reduces the expense of treating storm water unnecessarily. Obviously the US EPA doesn't have reach in Quebec, but there are similar efforts in Canada. And from that, it mentioned that new combined sewers are permitted, only repairs to existing infrastructure. Since this in essence would be a new installation and not a repair that would be grandfathered in, I'd be surprise if it's allowed.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by cdru:

said by thestealth:

So assuming we can tie the pump into the drain (as there are many examples in my area it seems), where would I do it in my diagram?

Pretty much anywhere as long as it's properly installed to prevent backflowing into the sink or washer.

Remember though, just because it once was acceptable doesn't mean it's permitted anymore. The EPA in the US is in the midst of requiring municipalities to separate storm and sanitary sewers to prevent raw sewage overflow during peak usage during storms and such. It also reduces the expense of treating storm water unnecessarily. Obviously the US EPA doesn't have reach in Quebec, but there are similar efforts in Canada. And from that, it mentioned that new combined sewers are permitted, only repairs to existing infrastructure. Since this in essence would be a new installation and not a repair that would be grandfathered in, I'd be surprise if it's allowed.

I agree that connecting to the sanitary sewer is not ideal but in the OP's neighborhood properties are small so their is no practical way to let it percolate to his soil, it will just loop back. But i do agree on the overflows, his municipality is connected to the south branch of the montreal sewage interceptor. Regularly in the summer the overflow sluice allows water out on his towns waterfront. The major problem in his municipality is a combination of combined sewers with major shopping malls with their roofs and parking lots as well as mostly flat roof homes with roof drains all dumping into the sewer system.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

said by telco_mtl:

I agree that connecting to the sanitary sewer is not ideal but in the OP's neighborhood properties are small so their is no practical way to let it percolate to his soil, it will just loop back.

Unfortunately though "no practical way" isn't usually a valid exemption.

I'd still talk with the city to figure out what the options are. Some cities that have separate storm sewers that only combined during overflowing peak periods. Maybe they allow a street's storm sewer to be tapped with the thought of being able to separate the flow downstream sometime in the future.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by cdru:

said by telco_mtl:

I agree that connecting to the sanitary sewer is not ideal but in the OP's neighborhood properties are small so their is no practical way to let it percolate to his soil, it will just loop back.

Unfortunately though "no practical way" isn't usually a valid exemption.

I'd still talk with the city to figure out what the options are. Some cities that have separate storm sewers that only combined during overflowing peak periods. Maybe they allow a street's storm sewer to be tapped with the thought of being able to separate the flow downstream sometime in the future.

actually in his town in all but the recent neighborhoods the storm sewers are the sanitary sewers. there are no "storm sewers" on the streets built prior to the 90s

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus
reply to thestealth

I'd have it discharge out the front of the house and bury the line until it's at the street, then have it discharge through a screened outlet onto the street.

I don't know how to keep it free of ice, I doubt you'll want to trench 3' below your grade. Maybe an electric freeze tape of some kind could be wrapped around the pipe, this would allow you to bury it just deep enough to put your lawn above it. the tape would have to be able to handle being installed along an empty (mostly) plastic pipe without either melting the pipe or burning itself out.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by garys_2k:

I'd have it discharge out the front of the house and bury the line until it's at the street, then have it discharge through a screened outlet onto the street.

I don't know how to keep it free of ice, I doubt you'll want to trench 3' below your grade. Maybe an electric freeze tape of some kind could be wrapped around the pipe, this would allow you to bury it just deep enough to put your lawn above it. the tape would have to be able to handle being installed along an empty (mostly) plastic pipe without either melting the pipe or burning itself out.

the issue there then is the fact there are sidewalks on all streets and discharging water on a sidewalk in winter will get you, no pun intended, in hot water. Call public works over on cordner street and ask them the procedure for sump pumps, be sure to specify what neighborhood you are in, be it the bronx, village des rapides etc.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus

Ouch, yeah, would have to go under a sidewalk, for sure. Two ways to do that that I know of, get a few friends and lift the individual slab out of the way to trench under (I've helped a neighbor do that, part of the lift team that earned a beer) or hydraulically "drill" under the slab. Use the pipe you're going to leave under there to drill through, using an adapter hooked to your garden hose.

I imagine you could run this whole thing with 1-1/2" pipe so it wouldn't be too hard to do, definitely easier if you rent a ditch witch but that wouldn't be really necessary.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by garys_2k:

Ouch, yeah, would have to go under a sidewalk, for sure. Two ways to do that that I know of, get a few friends and lift the individual slab out of the way to trench under (I've helped a neighbor do that, part of the lift team that earned a beer) or hydraulically "drill" under the slab. Use the pipe you're going to leave under there to drill through, using an adapter hooked to your garden hose.

I imagine you could run this whole thing with 1-1/2" pipe so it wouldn't be too hard to do, definitely easier if you rent a ditch witch but that wouldn't be really necessary.

this is quebec with our construction scandal right now and our sidewalks that were overpoured (for extra cash) and our asphalt streets that in some places are paved on a slab of concrete! and even if you go under the sidewalk, we dont have grass between the sidewalk and street so once under the sidewalk the pipe would be under the street.

his best bet is to go to public works just to be sure of the procedures. But like i said this is the neighborhood that uses plumbing stacks as roof drains lol!

TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:2
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

It's typically illegal to discharge into the sewer system.

It's illegal where I live but we did it anyways. The problem is the houses are so close together, there is no drainage ditch! Only other option would be to discharge near the street, but then that creates lots of ice which is a hazard to both pedestrians and vehicles. And it's not like we can just throw a bit of salt on it to melt it away, the ice builds up in thick layers everytime the pump runs.

So into the sewer it goes. We do however have some valves so we can direct the output of the pump outside if necessary. Typically we'll discharge to the street in the summer time and into the sewer when the freezing weather starts.

thestealth
Premium
join:2009-11-10
Lasalle, QC
reply to thestealth

Seems I started quite the discussion here.

The duplex does have a flat roof that drains right into the normal sewer.

So just T into the run, and use a standpipe like the washer? Could I just put a "y" on the end of the pipe and plumb the pump straight in? In doing so do I have to worry about backup through the current washer standpipe and sink due to the high volume and flow of the sump discharge? Or would it be better to put a "y" further up the pipe and tie in there?