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Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31

Game Direction...a little long rant.

I was reading a rogue blog that some here maybe familiar with called Forever a Noob »foreveranoob.wordpress.com/

The lastest post, as of this writing, is one where the author discusses the point of blogging anymore. While he may or may not be on target with his assessment, in his post he makes the following statement:

"The game has been so homogenized. There is little in the PvE game that is unique to rogues. "

My thought, or the discussion I purpose, is not whether he should keep blogging (I dont care either way) but rather, is his above statement correct?

I believe to a large extent it is. While each class has cute little tricks/effects/animations, for the most part they can be substituted by another class of the same vein. So should we even have classes? Would it be just the same if one chose, for example, to play a Night Elf and just chose a few talents that would allow him to tank, then perhaps he could switch that to "respec" to healing or DPS? (somewhat like Rift)

When I first started this game I chose rogue because it appealed to me on some level (coolness at being sneaky), but now hunters have camoflauge and they can do what I did. But I have vanish...so what, I have feign death...and so on. Learning the nuances of dueling each class, soaring on top of the DPS meters in BWL, sneaking through quests or dungeons...well those days are gone and replaced by Dailies, gear grind and capping VPs for the week.

What used to be unique about my favorite class is gone, those skills are equalled and often times bettered by another class. So what now is the point in any class?

The game has been diluted to serve the casual base, serving up content and rewards in quick, easy to swallow bites. I am not saying this is right or wrong-certainly on a business level Blizzard must do what it can to continue it's cash cow, but regardless of the implementation and the reasonings for it, this game has changed. I dont feel like a rogue or DK or warrior when I play those toons, I feel like a DPSer or tank, which is to say, I feel like my role and not the class that preforms it.

I know you cant mention or reflect on the past without some degree of nostalgia, but I find it hard to look at this game now and see what made me fall in love with it so long ago. I think, save for the time investment and familiarity, I would not play this game. If I picked it up in Cata or MoP my views would be different Im sure, but I am stuck in the present with a past that stretches to the game's inception and I feel sad at what it has become.

I keep thinking about what made this game change the way I feel about it...was it the LFD/LFR, the homogenization mentioned above, the epics that are so freely given, the loss of feeling any accomplishment in doing things now because they are so easy?

No, I think it was the result of all these things and that result was the loss of server communtiy. People in this game are assholes and Blizzard gives them the tools to ensure they ferment their assholedness to even greater levels. People in this game have become the biggest obstacle to enjoying it. Funny how that works, the thing that made the game awesome is the exact same thing that has turned it into a cesspool that requires people to consider being nice as a new idea..mentoring guilds....
Torturing people in chat, in LFD/LFR, in the world is the norm now, being nice is a revelation, an..... epiphany.

What a shame.



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
Reviews:
·Charter

I find my rogue to be my last class I play for PVE. Granted I rarely PVE outside of leveling, I can see his point.

He also can be suffering from WoW burnout in general as well. I think a lot of people are ready for something new, especially long time players that dedicate themselves to WoW and spend even more time blogging about WoW.

And I don't agree it's been diluted to serve a causal base. It was always pointed more towards the causal base. The causal argument really annoys me. Games SHOULD be casual. WoW does offer some hard mode content. Elitist talk I rarely even entertain with a debate.



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
reply to Skittles

Also he is expecting people to be "nice" on the Internet. I kinda feel sorry for him and his expectations of today's gamers.


Arsinic

join:2011-02-17
Ruffs Dale, PA
kudos:1
reply to Skittles

Blame the bring the player not the class QQ... While yes in the past that very mentality determined which guilds landed kills and which didnt.. They made changes to eliminate that mentality to a point. What they have failed to realize is that that mentality was based around 25 man raiding. 25 man raiding is near a dead horse anymore..

I personally hate the homogenization, but people whine and whine when they dont have something that someone else has, world of casualcraft has had this problem for a while.



stonhinge
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS

1 recommendation

reply to Skittles

said by Skittles:

... When I first started this game I chose rogue because it appealed to me on some level (coolness at being sneaky), but now hunters have camoflauge and they can do what I did. But I have vanish...so what, I have feign death...and so on. ...

What used to be unique about my favorite class is gone, those skills are equalled and often times bettered by another class. So what now is the point in any class?

Camouflage is nothing like rogue stealth. It's only there to let a person get a bit closer to drop a trap, or sneak by a couple mobs. there's no bonus to attacking from it, unlike rogue stealth. And as soon as the hunter or pet does damage, it goes away. Stealth is much better.

Feign death is also nothing like vanish. With vanish, you can move around, and get away from whatever was attacking you. You're also in stealth, so you can use one of your stealth-specific abilities again. Feign death? You lay there. And you can still be targeted and attacked. All it does is drop threat. It's also been there since the beginning, so I'm not even sure why it was brought up.

Yes, there's been some standardization across all classes. I won't say homogenized, because it doesn't feel that way to me. Everything isn't the same. However, buffs and debuffs needed to be consolidated. There were too many, and classes/specs bringing not maximized versions of those buffs tended to be passed over in favor of those that did. Now it's a bit less (not totally) about bringing specific classes, but you can bring the player you want, and still do well.

My current 10-man? 2 warriors, 2 druids, 2 mages, 2 priests, a rogue, and a monk. And we do fine. Is it the most balanced? No. Do we have fun? Yes. That's really all that matters. You can play whatever class you want as long as you have a good group of people to play with. If you don't have that, well, perhaps it is time to move on. I know that if I didn't have the core 5-6 people I play with, I'd likely not be playing now.
--
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Skittles

the homogeneity is not as drastic as stated by the author. I like that there is at least one other spec in the game that can provide what I need in my raid if I can't find a rogue (or any other class). I am especially grateful that a smart hunter can provide a full range of buffs depending on which pets they have with them. Their AoE invis is important for Challenge Modes... and not easily replaced (5 invis pots or 1 talent CD?).

I think the real problem for rogues, is that of the pures, they are left holding the short-straw this expansion. No one wants to play them this expansion. Is that some weird compensation for having the last class-based legendary weapon? who knows?

It's hard to be an awesomely average player these days... but excellence is still easily identifiable. There are balance issues, and some specs have simply fallen out of favor (not seeing many rogues or ENH shamans in PVE lately). Thanks to homogenization, my raid team isn't handicapped by that... and blizz doesn't need to adjust encounters... we just take a different class, and drive on.

I do feel for the rogue community... it sucks to be the neglected for an expansion.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to Phantasee

Please do mistake my statements for elitist talk. With the exception of extensive raiding in vanilla and to some extent BC, I am not elistist at all. But not all games should be casual in my opinion, I think the sense of accomplishment comes from the effort involved. The epics I had equipped from MC/BWL/AQ are remembered and are more meaningful than any I have obtained since. I can tell you the swords I had in MC by name, I cant tell you the names of the claws on my rogue now.Certainly the sense of accomplishment from LFR or BGs is not the same sense of accomplishment that say JB gets from raiding or Snuff gets from Arena.

But even if I am wrong about the above statement, which can be quite likely, my point is not casual or elite....it is that the game has changed for me and the reasons I stated are what I believe are the cause(s).



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Skittles

Some people seek a level of self fulfillment and accomplishment that a game just can't satisfy. Not to mention you never even own any of this. It is merely a lease of virtual items from Blizzard.

His problem is an elitist attitude. He's having a nostalgia trip. And he's probably burnt out all together. I understand his point but he's a fool if he thinks he will ever stand out on an online game in this era of MMO's.

Everquest WoW isn't. Those days are over for the standard of MMO's as we know it.



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Skittles

I totally respect your passion. But you have to realize WoW was never created to cater to the hardcore player. I played Everquest from 1999-2004. I know what a challenge and a sense of adventure and owning rare stuff that makes you stand out mean, trust me.

But those days are over.



Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4
reply to Skittles

READ ME:

First off - I agree that Rogues lost much of what made them special. Not only do classes get the same abilities, but in some cases better "copies". Additionally, almost every class has a gimmicky way to pull the rogue OUT of stealth at an insane range. Rogues are also in a terrible place right now so it's easy to dislike them.

Second, I can relate to the "diluting" of WoW and the catering to casuals. Many things have made WoW easier, but most of them are quality of life changes. I miss the old 31/31/31 talent trees, but other things like dungeon queues/LFR - those "diluted" the game too, but also opened tons of doors.

You can't expect a company as large as Blizzard to cater to the minority. It's just a poor decision.

I personally don't believe the game is too easy. It has gotten easier in many areas, some I agree with, some I don't. However, the game still has a huge "skill cap" which is what is most important to me. This means that while currently people are more competitive with less work than they used to be - you can still identify the difference between a good player and an average player.

When that line becomes gray, when everyone is homogenized to the same "skill" level and you can no longer identify good vs average - then this game will be dead to me.

I believe there are still significant differences between your average LFR player and your end-game progression raider. Between your casual BG player, and your high end arena player. So the game continues to hold my attention quite well.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Skittles

said by Skittles:

Certainly the sense of accomplishment from LFR or BGs is not the same sense of accomplishment that say JB gets from raiding or Snuff gets from Arena.

Correct, but that wasn't the point of LFR. LFR was just to provide a level of fulfillment for those who couldn't get into raiding. It was introduced as a consolation prize (at worst) or a stepping stone to raiding (at best).

said by Snuffbox:

I believe there are still significant differences between your average LFR player and your end-game progression raider. Between your casual BG player, and your high end arena player. So the game continues to hold my attention quite well.

absolutely. Take the OP class (Mages)... I see a lot of LFR mages pulling 60-80k and they carry the LFR raid... but when you see one pushing 100k in a Normal Raid (while NOT pulling aggro or standing in stupid)... that's special. Seeing a rogue (LFR or Normal) pull wicked dps while not gobbling up all of my heals is also /tear worthy.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to Immer

I think, judging by some of the responses so far in this thread, that I have phrased things incorrectly. I didnt mean to make my post sound as though it was a qq that rogues are in the want for this expansion. I could have easily used my warrior toon as an example of how other toons can replace what he brings. I know Blizzard homogenized things to give raiders/players more options, I guess my point is that in doing so nothing really feels special or unique.
I take Ston's comments about camo and FD as correct in their assessment, but my point was never that hunters do things exactly like rogues but only that they have tools that make them feel similar to a rogue. Much like how a Spriest can feel like a lock, etc.
My thoughts are only that the in "balancing" classess with certain skills/talents Blizzard has also to a degree diluted the whole class system.



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA

Maybe 5.2 will rekindle your flame for rogues. But don't get your hopes way up.



Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4
reply to Skittles

said by Skittles:

I think, judging by some of the responses so far in this thread, that I have phrased things incorrectly. I didnt mean to make my post sound as though it was a qq that rogues are in the want for this expansion.

I didn't take it wrong - I just tried to hit certain points in order. Not trying to make the whole thread about Rogues. Good post Skittles.


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA

Yea. Good post, overall. Sorry if I came off harsh as well. But I am an effing douche bag/troll 80% of the time.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Skittles

The bit about dumping classes and just going with something similar to Rift is what got me wanting to counter the homogenization argument. My focus on the rogue was more based on your source document, than on your specific concerns. You were reading a rogue forum. They are battling depression these days... we should consider disarming them for the time being....
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to Phantasee

Oh, I did not think you or Snuff were being unduely harsh in your responses. I made the post to generate some discussion as this board is lacking somewhat in that regard.

I think everyone has made some very good points, I remain unoffended ;0)



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA

1 recommendation

You're not even mad. Jimmies remain unrustled.



Mordred

join:2013-01-02
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Skittles

Hmm, well I can agree with most of the statements on homogenizing the classes. I still think a good group of raiders can utilize what class skills are still unique. If you just use LFR to be a beautiful snow flake and expect your skills to matter, I have news.... You are not. This current incarnation of the game today IMO is not due to the casual or hardcore player, but the fact that the players are in a hurry. For the most part it is rush to get to max level, rush through all the heroics, slam through all current raid content. What seemed like a cute mechanic or task the first 2 times is just awful the rest of the time, so we complain and blizzard listens. We can all talk about how when we were leveling back on a dial up, you needed to be level 40 to get your first slow mount or how gold just doesnt go as far as it use to. All that stuff that makes it easier for newbs also makes it easier for my alts.

As far as being diluted for the casual player base, not sure I totally agree with that. It is def geared more to it now than back in vanilla or BC, but there are still plenty of things out of reach for a casual player. It was a huge win for the casual that blizzard made LFR. Now a person can just sign on, see the end game content, get some gear and have fun. It is a game that cost money. No matter how much time you have devoted to it, we still all pay the same. You still have regular and heroic for the person who wants to excel at it.

I do agree most of us could be alittle nicer. I for one have lost my cool to someone who was a mess with their class, or had the nerve to pug a raid and not know anything about it. There is also the classic "What is DBM". All goes back to us being in a hurry I think. I used to think to myself when this happens, what do you mean you did not spend all day watching videos on the fights before you pugged it?This was all touched upon in the post from someone about getting a pug mage and spending the time to teach them what was going on. It really made me think about how I interact with the player base and how I should just relax. Well that is my rant, take from it what you will.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Skittles

I haven't read more than what you posted, but his point strikes home. The game has become so homogenized under the "bring the player, not the class" mantra, that it has gotten out of hand to the point that the classes feel bland, boring, dull, and gray.

It really does become rather unnecessary to blog about what is unique to your class when they take away talent trees and implement talents where there is no 'wrong' choice. Because where there is no wrong choice, the range between the very bad and the very good becomes so small that it's not worth the effort.

That might be a tad bit of exaggerating, but there is no longer that unique, special, and flavorful variety between the classes. It no longer feels like a completely different game. All healers are the same, the buttons just look different.

Playing more than one or two characters becomes especially tedious since it never feels any different.

This is all coming from a very jaded, longtime, semi-active player, who invests most of his gaming time elsewhere, so perhaps it's not indicative of the entire community, but I bet a lot of people agree with the OP and myself.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.



Deft
Stros in '08
Premium
join:2003-09-06
Grand Forks, ND
Reviews:
·Midcontinent Com..
reply to Skittles

I play a rogue and just stopped playing PVP for just the reason of getting man handled unless i have a shammy or a ridicuously geared dk/warr...

Now in 5.2 i wont need to be having over geared people "carrying" me so to speak.. i will be able to handle my own now im quite excited. i feel like a special snowflake..

Also its not just rogues.. look at all the hardcore raiders when mages were buffed beyond repair and the top 5 yes FIVE were all mages.. hell if i remember correctly i believe Paragon sat thier best main toons and brought their alts instead due to certain mechanics or just simply dps.



Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA
reply to Krisnatharok

That was a good way of breaking it down, Kris. I guess the blogging aspect is to vent.



Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

All healers are the same, the buttons just look different.

Maybe it's because I'm PvP oriented, but I can't agree with this.

I have all the healing classes and have played each fairly competitively, they all feel very different to me, even the newest addition the Monk (eww).

Priests are highly offensive, Shamans are highly defensive, Paladins are somewhere in the middle and provide tons of utility.

Shamans bomb huge heals, Druids roll tons of small hots, Priests mitigate/absorb and channel. I could go on and on.

Each healer feels very different and requires me to play very different.

I realize that much of this is less apparent in PvE, but still exists to some degree.


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA

And this may also be the key to the class imbalance people speak of as well, Snuff. Good stuff.

We could go as far to say they are all the same and all make numbers fly over your head. Red, green, and white numbers.



Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Skittles

The part about class homogenization is overstated, I think. When I play my ele shaman, or my hunter, or my lock... they feel completely different to me, even though they're all ranged DPS. Different spells, different mechanics, different gear, different rotations, different strengths/weaknesses. Maybe it's just the classes I play, but I haven't felt that this was a concern. However, this bit:

said by Skittles:

No, I think it was the result of all these things and that result was the loss of server communtiy. People in this game are assholes and Blizzard gives them the tools to ensure they ferment their assholedness to even greater levels. People in this game have become the biggest obstacle to enjoying it.

This, I can wholeheartedly agree with. Don't get me wrong - not everyone out there is acting like a complete dick. I've run into some awesome folks recently while grinding out some PvP achievements in Tol Barad and Wintergrasp, for instance. Ran into a few folks in LFR with a good sense of community. However, there are MANY people who are just pugging LFD/LFR for the chances at VP/gear upgrades, that regard everyone else in the group as just a tool to help them get what THEY want from the game. Running HoF LFR? The other 24 people are just there to make sure you get your 90 VP and a few chances at new shiny purple gear. If their tanking/heals/DPS aren't absolutely optimal, it's a personal insult to you, and you have every right to berate and insult them, even though you AFK'ed for 3 minutes during the Garalon fight for a potty break. Or, the "RECOUNT CHAMPION" who is running LFR with an ilvl of 498, and screaming his head off at everyone doing less than 90k dps. Or, the lovely folks who instantly vote to kick anyone who says in /raid, "hey, this is my first time in this instance, read up about this boss in Dungeon Journal... any pointers?"
...
The introduction of LFD/LFR has been great, in the sense that a lot more people are getting to see end-game content. It has also been a curse, in that people can now act like complete douchebags to everyone in the group, and suffer no lasting consequences other than an occasional votekick. Used to be that social skills were crucial to your success - finding a spot in a good guild, being able to round up players in /general or /trade for a dungeon or raid, being able to guide newer players through instances without losing your cool, et cetera. Now you just curse out everyone, drop group, and re-queue. Unfortunate, but with the system now entrenched as it is, I don't see any way out, without Blizz seriously pissing off a bunch of their playerbase.


Phantasee

join:2009-08-27
Hammond, LA

I suppose we can sum up this entire thread with:

"Welcome to the Internet"



Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to Caelharrad

I feel your assessment is spot on Cael and is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote the text you quoted.
It just seems that the tools Blizzard implemented to make the game more accessible to all has had the unfortunate side effect of allowing people to use the anonimity and freedom the tools give to let their worst personality features to be turned loose on 24 other players.



Vinceras

@DFAS.MIL
reply to Krisnatharok

I really dont get how anyone can possibly not think that the new talents are 1 million times better than what we had before. And yes it does matter what talents you take. Every class has diff fights that specifc talents/glyphs are just flat out 100% more effective on. Same thing for pvp/arenas. Changing your talents/glyphs before the match starts based on what comp you are facing seperates the average player from the more skilled players, and def brings more "skill" to the game than before when everyone googled the best cookie cutter spec and copied and pasted it until the next patch came out. I guess some people did like using flat out terrible specs in an effort to be a "special snowflake"(Melee hunter?). So in that instance I guess you are right, Blizzard is catering the casuals/bads!!! Oh no! Every DK now gets that 5% frost damage with frost spec now vice having to spec for it! F U blizzard, it took me great skillz to know to spec for that!



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Skittles

the problem with letting more and more people in... is that you let more and more people in. Good and bad. Lowering standards of entry (or removing former roadblocks) generally does little for the "good"... but the "bad" are allowed to pour in unhindered.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Vinceras

said by Vinceras :

I really dont get how anyone can possibly not think that the new talents are 1 million times better than what we had before. And yes it does matter what talents you take. Every class has diff fights that specifc talents/glyphs are just flat out 100% more effective on. Same thing for pvp/arenas. Changing your talents/glyphs before the match starts based on what comp you are facing seperates the average player from the more skilled players, and def brings more "skill" to the game than before when everyone googled the best cookie cutter spec and copied and pasted it until the next patch came out. I guess some people did like using flat out terrible specs in an effort to be a "special snowflake"(Melee hunter?). So in that instance I guess you are right, Blizzard is catering the casuals/bads!!! Oh no! Every DK now gets that 5% frost damage with frost spec now vice having to spec for it! F U blizzard, it took me great skillz to know to spec for that!

LOL. This guy is a trip.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.