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rednekcowboy
join:2012-03-21

rednekcowboy to hm

Member

to hm

Re: What does the CBB ruling mean to you and me?

said by hm :

said by rednekcowboy:

Now, that is the third time I've said it, do I really need to say it again?

What did you say three times? You don't like contracts?

psst, Dave, »Re: What does the CBB ruling mean to you and me?

Have a few too many tonight? Generally you know how to read, though you seem to be having some difficulty.....

hm
@videotron.ca

hm

Anon

said by rednekcowboy:

Have a few too many tonight?

Unfortunately no. I'm in need a few too many. No one is going to be offering "shocking prices". It's regulated pricing.

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

4 edits

Canaca

Premium Member

How the current CBB pricing works.

Let's assume we are talking about 1Gbps interconnects for the sake of keep things simple. Now let's also assume that each 1Gbps or 1000Mbps costs $10K per month.

(The numbers above and below don't necessarily reflect what a 1Gbps line can cost or the amount of clients it can service. They are just for the sake of the argument )

1. Let's assume each 1000Mbps can service 2000 6Mbps DSL clients during peak hours.

2. Now let's assume the 6Mbps line is rate limited to a maximum of 3Mbps during this peak hour period.

3. This same 1000Mbps line can now service 3000 clients instead of the original 2000.

4. Cost per client goes from $5 to $3.30

5. The savings can then get passed on to the client in terms of lower monthly fee's.

We are paying for the 1Gbps interconnect to meet peak hour spikes. What happens off peak hours has no impact on our costs. A picture is worth a thousand words so I have attached one.

As you can see our highest peak on this 1Gbps interconnect occurred at around 21:30. What happened before 21:30 and after 21:30 had no impact on our costs. We just need to make sure that the 1Gbps interconnect does not get saturated at any given time. Saturation equals lag and packet loss. During these potential peaks is where our rate limiting would kick in.

It even get's more interesting.

Why do some ISP's charge for both download and upload usage? These are full duplex connections. We don't pay any extra for the upload side. Assuming most ISP's are just like us they are in no danger of ever saturating the upload side of the line based on the MTRG graph above.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by Canaca:

....We are paying for the 1Gbps interconnect to meet peak hour spikes. What happens off peak hours has no impact on our costs. A picture is worth a thousand words so I have attached one.

As you can see our highest peak on this 1Gbps interconnect occurred at around 21:30. What happened before 21:30 and after 21:30 had no impact on our costs. We just need to make sure that the 1Gbps interconnect does not get saturated at any given time. Saturation equals lag and packet loss [and wholesale CBB cost increases]. During these potential peaks is where our rate limiting would kick in....

 
And anyone who thinks that you will limit their bandwidth (speed) to half for the entire 'peak' hours period (the period which you publish) is either paranoid or has an agenda against your company (or both).

BTW, I take it that the blue line is the customers' downstream demand and the green shading is our upstream ?
LanAdmin
join:2010-11-07
Montreal, QC

LanAdmin to Canaca

Member

to Canaca
If you ever have to limit speed, how can you do that without getting higher ping for voip or gaming?

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

Canaca to Davesnothere

Premium Member

to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

said by Canaca:

....We are paying for the 1Gbps interconnect to meet peak hour spikes. What happens off peak hours has no impact on our costs. A picture is worth a thousand words so I have attached one.

As you can see our highest peak on this 1Gbps interconnect occurred at around 21:30. What happened before 21:30 and after 21:30 had no impact on our costs. We just need to make sure that the 1Gbps interconnect does not get saturated at any given time. Saturation equals lag and packet loss [and wholesale CBB cost increases]. During these potential peaks is where our rate limiting would kick in....

 
And anyone who thinks that you will limit their bandwidth (speed) to half for the entire 'peak' hours period (the period which you publish) is either paranoid or has an agenda against your company (or both).

BTW, I take it that the blue line is the customers' downstream demand and the green shading is our upstream ?

That is correct. Green is upstream and blue is Downstream.
Canaca

Canaca to LanAdmin

Premium Member

to LanAdmin
said by LanAdmin:

If you ever have to limit speed, how can you do that without getting higher ping for voip or gaming?

It does end up adding a few extra ms however nothing to be concerned with. (Around 3ms to 10ms)
DSL_Ricer
Premium Member
join:2007-07-22

DSL_Ricer to LanAdmin

Premium Member

to LanAdmin
said by LanAdmin:

If you ever have to limit speed, how can you do that without getting higher ping for voip or gaming?

Do you torrent or do mass parallel downloading while gaming? If not, you're probably below the target rate and thus won't be limited.
If you only have a few ongoing downloads from the web, depending on Acanac's buffering settings, TCP congestion control should kick in and there should be fairly little degradation to your latency.

Lag problems only occur when buffers are too big. But as a corollary, if you have to little buffers (or to little buffers relative to the amount of connections you have), congestion control will not hit connections equally or will over penalize bursts.
LanAdmin
join:2010-11-07
Montreal, QC

LanAdmin

Member

I was asking how do they "rate limit" because when an IIPS get congestion, ping can get very high like this example with Teksavvy.

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

2 edits

Canaca

Premium Member

Like I sated in some of the previous posts sometimes the type of congestion above is out of the control the independent ISP's. It happens on the incumbent side before it even reaches the ISP's interconnects.

If these slow downs are due to over subscription of the interconnects this is exactly where our rate limit would kick in while waiting for the incumbent to finish the upgrades. As we all should know by now these upgrades can some times take months to be completed.

In a rate limited environment you would not experience the packet loss or the high ping rates. You would also maintain your speeds up to the max rate limit.

With that said you can expect around 3ms to 10ms increase when the rate limiting is activated. I am assuming this would not cause you any significant impact.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to Canaca

Anon

to Canaca
Paul, Maybe you mentioned this already but a quick search doesn't show it.

In regards to the new Videotron 10-meg upload rolling out for you in a month or so....

With rate-limiting at your peak time, will you also rate-limit upload speeds? If so, to what?

RateLimit
@distributel.net

RateLimit

Anon

said by hm :

Paul, Maybe you mentioned this already but a quick search doesn't show it.

In regards to the new Videotron 10-meg upload rolling out for you in a month or so....

With rate-limiting at your peak time, will you also rate-limit upload speeds? If so, to what?

I think Paul said Acanac only have to rate limit to make sure the pipe connect to Videotron doesn't saturate/congestion. From the graph, the upload (green color) is way too low and it is impossible to have a congestion on upload. Therefore there is no need to rate limit for upload. He even suggested other ISPs shouldn't count the upload usage into the total bandwidth usage because it is free.

»/r0/do ··· raph.png
quote:
Why do some ISP's charge for both download and upload usage? These are full duplex connections. We don't pay any extra for the upload side. Assuming most ISP's are just like us they are in no danger of ever saturating the upload side of the line based on the MTRG graph above.
»Re: What does the CBB ruling mean to you and me?
LanAdmin
join:2010-11-07
Montreal, QC

LanAdmin to hm

Member

to hm
said by hm :

Paul, Maybe you mentioned this already but a quick search doesn't show it.

In regards to the new Videotron 10-meg upload rolling out for you in a month or so....

With rate-limiting at your peak time, will you also rate-limit upload speeds? If so, to what?

According to their site they could have on the Videotron cable.
»www.acanac.ca/cable.html

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to RateLimit

Anon

to RateLimit
@RateLimit,
Yeah I recall that quote as well, but as LanAdmin points out, their webpage (which I didn't notice till he mentioned it here) already shows upload rate-limiting from 3-meg to 2-meg.

Wonder if they will rate-limit the new upload speed from 10-meg to 2-meg?

Anyhow, I think this answered my question.