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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to GeorgeBurger

Re: VMedia fights mandatory channel carriage

It might be nice to have a skinny basic option with just the mandatory carriage stuff, and then let people add the channels they want on top of that.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



En Enfer
This account has been compromised

join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
kudos:4

1 edit
reply to GeorgeBurger

said by GeorgeBurger:

$24.95 is a pretty low price of admission.

25$ for basic only ? Yikes! That's insanely HIGH !

Sure, it's low compared with Rogers cable and Bell satellite/fibe in Ontario... but...

Indeed, as a sole IPTV provider, you are not paying for the "last mile", customers are paying that to their wholesale service provider, who must also pay for the extra capacity (CBB).

Any VoIP customer such as freephoneline or voip.ms is not paying 20$ per month for the last mile, so without these "extra fees", your IPTV project sounds like a money grab with 500% profits.

Pass.

P.S.: It's interesting you don't confirm or deny anything about Bell's involvement in your team's "choices" to set 6 optional Bell channels on basic.
Concerning my "anger at Bell", well, we both know that using their media power to force their specialties on basic service to its small competitors is just wrong. They're not licenced as basic. Someone have to stand up to them instead of letting them so whatever they want... (think UBB).
--
Tell your children over dinner, "Due to the economy, we are going to have to let one of you go."


uhh

@videotron.ca
reply to GeorgeBurger

said by GeorgeBurger:

Lol, thanks Uhhhh!

lol, I don't mean anything bad by it. I imagine it's going to be a good deal. Just... like maybe one day when the fights to even get access have cooled down (Loved the words you brought to the CRTC) and others stop playing stupid with you by not even quoting you, or trying to force your (and our) costs to increase, then maybe once all that has settled there could be room to look at what the guy above stated. In the end, it's just another option (or choice) to give people. Choices are good. Just saying... I think offering something like this would be an advantage over others. I see positive in it and maybe something to work towards offering.

Keep in mind, a heck of a lot of DSL users jump ship for a lousy 1$ savings (as sad as that is). I like to see you succeed. As far as I know the only other alternative ISP + IPTV provider would be Acanac. And I'm not sure they are even fully deployed yet. Still in Beta I think.

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing the new website and prices when it launches.


uhh

@videotron.ca
reply to TypeS

said by TypeS:

Not sure where you going with this "pay for nothing" thing, but if you could, find me a TV service provider a true a la carte offering where you pick channel by channel what you want and you don't pay for any channel you'd never watch.

En Enfer already answered this question.
said by En Enfer:

As I previously gave as an example, Vidéotron's basic service is the strict basic, and they do offer à la carte since the beginning of their digital tv service in 1998, as well as "popular english" and "popular french" and thematic packages. They are not forced to distribute MuchMusic or any Cat A specialties on basic and still manage to respect the braodcaster's penetration minimum in a bilingual market. Consequently, I don't see the point of forcing Cat A specialties on basic.

Maybe you don't have this in Ontario? Dunno.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

We don't, Rogers basic goes up to channel 42 or something like that. I forget now. Don't about Cogeco. Though even skinny basic still isnt full blown a la carte, there some channels in any carrier's basic line up that I don't care for, but they're going to be there regardless.

I care more for the price I am paying, if its reasonable (ie, Rogers price for basic is outrageous before you get into digital packages to get just 1 or 2 channels you do like), I don't mind bundling. Traditional TV service's (be it cable, iptv or satellite) days are numbered though IMHO. The Nort American day is much more than 9-5 now, pretty much 18-24/7, so many store chains dont close at all anymore, people's schedules are fitting less and less into what they used to be. We've become a pretty busy society in North America. I think on-demand services like NetFlix are going to gain popularity. Watch what you want to when you want. Of course there will always be the news, sporting events and other live events. Put stuff like prime time viewing will probably shift to on demand.



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to En Enfer

said by En Enfer:

said by GeorgeBurger:

$24.95 is a pretty low price of admission.

Any VoIP customer such as freephoneline or voip.ms is not paying 20$ per month for the last mile, so without these "extra fees", your IPTV project sounds like a money grab with 500% profits.

Pass.

I'm going to just say straight out that you seem to have a heavy bias and a grind to axe with something. I pay $30/month for VoIP and it is not over priced by any means. Not for what I get. You're judgement of what is a fair price and what isn't is way off. And not every company wants to live with slim profit margins either.


uhh

@videotron.ca
reply to TypeS

said by TypeS:

I care more for the price I am paying,

You basically just qualified everything I said, yet previously you ragged on it. You even ragged on En Enfer, yet you also qualify his statements.

said by uhh :

...
The guy isn't wrong. I find myself in agreement with what he stated.

It's not for me, but I guess maybe it's a choice for others who want to have to pay for nothing. As long as they pay for nothing and it's less than Rogers or Bell. That is all that matters to some (or most) people.

Basically you are ok with paying for nothing as long as it's less than Bell or Rogers. heh

Why pay for channels you don't even want and will never look at? Why is Vmedia even making the basic offer like this?

Makes zero sense to me. But, hey, if that is what the Ontario market asks for (just be less than Rogers and we're happy, which is basically what you said) then so be it.

Will await their launch.


uhh

@videotron.ca
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

It might be nice to have a skinny basic option with just the mandatory carriage stuff, and then let people add the channels they want on top of that.

Yeah. That makes 3 of us now basically saying the same thing. I think that is the way to go to steal customers from others, and to have people taking a second and third look at Vmedia. Should come out less expensive and should attract more people, or get their interest more.

Anyway, maybe one day.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to GeorgeBurger

Here's what kills me.

CTV ottawa/Sudbury/toronto/Kitchner/north bay.

Why? Isn't the programming exactly the same? is there any "local' programming?

TVA/TV5 , Quebec centric, who the hell wants anywhere else in the country?

CTV2 in barrie/windsor/ottawa/london -- see CTV above.

Much Music is must carry, since when?
TSN/TSN2 also must carry??
E! WTF a rehash of celeberity news from the US with a minute amount of CANCON (you have no idea the bs these "infotainment shows" have to go through to justify CANCON rules.

Ami-TV, never heard of them.

This is not so much the fault of Vmedia, but the fault of failed regulations. I'm not interested in pay for the same channel 4x.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



En Enfer
This account has been compromised

join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
kudos:4

1 edit

said by elwoodblues:

CTV ottawa/Sudbury/toronto/Kitchner/north bay.

OTA channels (those you can get with an antenna) costs nothing.
I guess all ontario versions are there because maybe vmedia doesn't plan on being exclusive to Toronto.

said by elwoodblues:

TVA/TV5 , Quebec centric, who the hell wants anywhere else in the country?

TVA Montreal have a special mandatory carriage for the rest of Canada, it's there in order to provide an alternative to Radio-Canada in our beautiful bilingual country...

said by elwoodblues:

Ami-TV, never heard of them.

It's a channel with the "described video for those who are visually impaired" as the main audio track. Normal people will just find this annoying.

said by TypeS:

I'm going to just say straight out that you seem to have a heavy bias and a grind to axe with something. I pay $30/month for VoIP and it is not over priced by any means.

30 bucks ? Whoa! That's way more than a Bell landline. Who's your provider?

Well, in fact, I don't use my phone very often, but I have many options on voip.ms and it doesn't costs more than 5$ per month.
--
Tell your children over dinner, "Due to the economy, we are going to have to let one of you go."


En Enfer
This account has been compromised

join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
kudos:4
reply to GeorgeBurger

I posted a similar tarif grid on another DSLreports forum.

Notes :
- CBC/SRC is public broadcaster, paid by your taxes.
- TVO/TFO used to be public, now private, dunno how it costs now.
- CTV, Global, Citytv, CHCH, CTS and other OTA channels are not receiving subscription revenues (remember the Local TV Matters campaign?)
- PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX are also OTA channels receiving nothing from canadian distributors.
- Each provider have a community channel financed by profits. vmedia is too small to operate one.

So, I broke it down using public data on CRTC's website.

=== Basic Service ===


Channel Average Cost
CBC News Network 1.00$ (Canada, 0.63$ for Québec)
RDI 0.63$ (Canada, 1$ for Québec)
MétéoMédia/Weather 0.23$
APTN 0.25$
The Accessible Channel 0.20$
CPAC 0.11$
TV5 Québec Canada 0.12$
Legislature channel paid by your taxes
The Shopping Channel nothing, paid by advertisers
GameTV nothing, paid by advertisers
Viewers Choice nothing, paid by users
Vidéo on Demand financed by profits
Galaxie unknown
Radio nothing

===================
Real costs for basic service : 2.54$ + community chan + Galaxie + costs for free VOD content

Add to this : Customer service employees and managers, softwares and hardwares for digital broadcast (receive and send).

Rogers and Bell fibe must pay for the whole fiber-coax transport network. Vmedia doesn't. Your internet subscription already pays for that.

=== Specialties added to vmedia basic ===
CP24			0.10$
CTV News Channel 0.144$
E! (Canada) 0.234$
MuchMusic 0.14$
MuchMore 0.08$
TSN 1.361$ + TSN2 (unknown)
VisionTV 0.108$
YTV 0.274$

=====
How much you overpay for 8 extra services on vmedia basic service : 2.44$ + TSN2

Conclusion : For 25$ per month, 5$ goes to the actual content provider, everything else (20$) goes in profits.
(I haven't seen Galaxie listed there)

--
Tell your children over dinner, "Due to the economy, we are going to have to let one of you go."

GoRaptors

join:2011-07-22
London, ON

WOOWOW Oh snap! O_O! :O! Crazy!



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to En Enfer

said by En Enfer:

30 bucks ? Whoa! That's way more than a Bell landline. Who's your provider?

Well, in fact, I don't use my phone very often, but I have many options on voip.ms and it doesn't costs more than 5$ per month.

There is more to a service than the dollar value you pay for me. Maybe all you care about is money and pinching where you can but that is not how I go about life.

My provider is Vonage, and for the $30 I get, unlimited local, unlimited North America, unlimited to 60+ countries. I have an Aunt in Australia that my father and mother call many times a week for lenghty conversations. And we all make a lot of phone calls to Toronto and our relatives in NY and Florida. Please show me how that is more expensive than Bell.

voip.ms works for you since you stated you don't use the phone much, but that is a growing trend only amongst the young adult generation and technology inclined folk who have embraced SMS, Skype, e-mail and other internet based communications. There are still a lot of people that use the plain good old telephone for communication.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to En Enfer

said by En Enfer:

Conclusion : For 25$ per month, 5$ goes to the actual content provider, everything else (20$) goes in profits.
(I haven't seen Galaxie listed there)

Do you know how much it costs to build an IPTV headend with encoders/transcoders, middleware, etc.? Also the transit costs, although low, are not insignificant.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


all lip

@videotron.ca
reply to TypeS

said by TypeS:

There is more to a service than the dollar value you pay for me. Maybe all you care about is money and pinching where you can but that is not how I go about life.

said by TypeS:

I care more for the price I am paying

Let us know when you can decide for yourself instead of paying lip service.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by all lip :

said by TypeS:

There is more to a service than the dollar value you pay for me. Maybe all you care about is money and pinching where you can but that is not how I go about life.

said by TypeS:

I care more for the price I am paying

Let us know when you can decide for yourself instead of paying lip service.

You're pretty dense aren't you? I was talking about VoIP service in one post and TV service in another. TV service options are generally more limited than Data or Voice services. I don't care really for how the channels are bundled as long as I get the ones I want. But the price traditional Cable companies has gone way too high.

Sorry if my views dont agree with yours, but please learn to read and think before you post.

Have a good day.


En Enfer
This account has been compromised

join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
kudos:4
reply to HeadSpinning

said by TypeS:

I have an Aunt in Australia that my father and mother call many times a week for lenghty conversations.

Point taken. After all, choosing a service provider depends on our usage. From what you described, 30$ for overseas calls is less expensive than a Bell landline.

said by HeadSpinning:

Do you know how much it costs to build an IPTV headend with encoders/transcoders, middleware, etc.? Also the transit costs, although low, are not insignificant.

Sure, the hardware/software required to run the service is costly, but these are just a one time expense. Existing terrestial digital TV providers also have those. But unlike wholesale ISPs, IPTV providers do not require to pay Rogers or Bell for the last mile.

It just doesn't make sense to offer an IPTV service for the same price as Rogers, Bell Fibe or Vidéotron's TV service.
--
Tell your children over dinner, "Due to the economy, we are going to have to let one of you go."


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by En Enfer:

said by TypeS:

I have an Aunt in Australia that my father and mother call many times a week for lenghty conversations.

Point taken. After all, choosing a service provider depends on our usage. From what you described, 30$ for overseas calls is less expensive than a Bell landline.

Yup, considering not getting VoIP service when I move on my own to the GTA later this year. Mobile only service works for me coupled with Skype.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to En Enfer

said by En Enfer:

Sure, the hardware/software required to run the service is costly, but these are just a one time expense. Existing terrestial digital TV providers also have those. But unlike wholesale ISPs, IPTV providers do not require to pay Rogers or Bell for the last mile.

The costs are not one time. Equipment and software have licensing and service contracts. There are per subscriber fees for middleware. There are required upgrades as time goes on. All of that equipment and software has an expected life over which the IPTV provider must recoup the costs. That translates in to a per subscriber cost. I'm just trying to point out that your assertion that everything above the programming costs are pure profit are overstated. All of that equipment and software has an expected life over which the IPTV provider must recoup the costs. That translates in to a per subscriber cost.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


hm

@videotron.ca

said by HeadSpinning:

The costs are not one time. Equipment and software have licensing and service contracts. There are per subscriber fees for middleware. There are required upgrades as time goes on. All of that equipment and software has an expected life over which the IPTV provider must recoup the costs. That translates in to a per subscriber cost. I'm just trying to point out that your assertion that everything above the programming costs are pure profit are overstated. All of that equipment and software has an expected life over which the IPTV provider must recoup the costs. That translates in to a per subscriber cost.

To my understanding, Vmedia created much of the software they are using. So a lot of those "licensing costs" just aren't there, aside from salary for the software engineers (not sure if they are the owners themselves). And costs are usually amortized over X-years anyhow.

It's also interesting to note that some of Vmedia's fight that they brought to the media (ie. like Macleans) claims they are breaking up the bundle packages and offering "a la carte choice". But this certainly doesn't seem to be the case when looking at their website. Seems they say one thing, yet do another.

Certainly is a head-scratcher when you look at the words versus what they are currently showing. But maybe they will change this.

As George said,
said by GeorgeBurger:

3. .... we try to maximize our customer's flexibility as much as we can. In any event as you can see from reading our posts and our existing website, we will be offering a la carte, over 40 channels that you can package yourself, and about 60 that you can choose standalone.

Currently all I saw were packages. No real "basic" (but this could be something forced by Bell as En Enfer pointed out, who knows). So I guess there is a change coming (per George). At least, I hope so. What I see from other IPTV "basic" packages they should be able to offer true basic and drop price by 5-6$. Not sure why they can't at the moment.

So in addition to not having the software licensing, HeadSpinning, they are currently over-priced for basic. But, then again, they aren't offering true basic (which affects price), nor are they offering a la carte.

Anyhow, currently their words don't match up with the offering and thus the price. Maybe we will see the changes when they launch on the 27th? Or maybe my browser settings prevents me from seeing something different on their webpage that matches the words? Wouldn't be the first time.

BTW, Brama Telecom is stating they are in bed with Vmedia:
»www.bramatelecom.com/packages/tv···oduct=-1

Is this the other Canadian Vmedia? These two Vmedia's in Canada is getting confusing.


JoePro

join:2006-11-01
canada

said by hm :

BTW, Brama Telecom is stating they are in bed with Vmedia:
»www.bramatelecom.com/packages/tv···oduct=-1

Is this the other Canadian Vmedia? These two Vmedia's in Canada is getting confusing.

»www.vmedia.ca/info/partners.aspx


En Enfer
This account has been compromised

join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC
kudos:4
reply to HeadSpinning

said by HeadSpinning:

The costs are not one time. Equipment and software have licensing and service contracts. There are per subscriber fees for middleware. There are required upgrades as time goes on.

Yeah, ok, so does Rogers, Shaw, Videotron, Cogeco, and Bell Fibe. Expenses for maintenance are no different here.

said by HeadSpinning:

That translates in to a per subscriber cost. I'm just trying to point out that your assertion that everything above the programming costs are pure profit are overstated.

Ah, I get it. Maybe I used the wrong terms.

The CRTC have numbers on public record that gives an idea how much each specialty channel receives in subscriber revenues. That ~5$ from your cable bill actually goes to the broadcasters who re-invest that money by producing and acquiring rights to shows.

We have no clue (and no desire to know) how much it costs for the company to run day-to-day operations : building, equipment, salaries, transit costs... and the rest goes to pure profits. Off course, for any new company launching a product from scratch, there won't be any profit during the first year. I should have said instead "revenues minus known constant expenses is 20$".

The problem, as I pointed out, is that Vidéotron in Quebec offers standalone digital TV basic service for 23$, and they must charge extra in each product for the distribution costs (fiber, poles usage, digging, repair).

How do you explain that Vmedia charges 25$ for a similar basic (with a ~2.44$ difference for extra channels), but have no expenses on similar distribution costs? IPTV is just data that transits trought your internet connection. Your IISP pays the incumbent provider for the usage of last mile, not content providers like Google, VoIP or IPTV.

Let me rephrase the question for you: Which expenses IPTV providers have to pay extra that Rogers, Shaw, Cogeco or Videotron don't ? What justifies such a high price ?
--
Tell your children over dinner, "Due to the economy, we are going to have to let one of you go."


Exidor
Premium
join:2001-05-04
Brampton, ON
reply to GeorgeBurger

On the topic at hand, from The Globe and Mail:

IPTV’s new wave looms over cable’s old guard

»www.theglobeandmail.com/technolo···0326529/

You may/may not need a membership subscription to view the article, I honestly don't know.


GeorgeBurger

join:2011-12-30
kudos:2

Wow thanks Exidor, hadn't seen it yet!



neuromancer1

join:2007-01-22
York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia

1 edit
reply to GeorgeBurger

This off topic but they've 25/2 cable internet package for $36.95 will this be available in North York, GTA? What's the bandwidth cap on this package? I assume a Docsis 3.0 modem is required? Are you allowed to bring your modem? I would be interested in signing up as I'm ready to leave Teksavvy after 7 years and looking for an ISP with better customer service and lower prices.



rosenqui
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Kanata, ON
reply to En Enfer

Where do you get the idea that transit is free for the IPTV provider/ISP? According to Acanac/Zazeen, that's going to be one of the largest costs in their IPTV service - increased capacity charges from Rogers/Bell/etc. due to the extra traffic incurred by their IPTV customers.

The CRTC does not allow regulated TV channels (CTV, TSN, HGTV, etc) to be delivered "over the top" a la Netflix. It must be done using what they deem to be a "closed network", which means vMedia must partner with one or more ISPs or be an ISP themselves in order to be able to service any customers. It's the ISPs that incur all of those extra transit charges, and that cost is reflected in the TV subscription price.

If vMedia was allowed to offer their service over the top, then you would have a valid argument and it's quite likely that their prices would be somewhat lower.
--
Adventures in Canadian cord cutting - »canadiancordcutting.blogspot.ca/



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to GeorgeBurger

IPTV providers are required to deliver service over a closed network, either their own or via peering arrangements. There are no transit costs for IPTV because they're not allowed to let it pass through the public internet. The only capacity-based costs would be CBB costs.

EDIT: Clarification, "transit" normally refers to internet transit, not CBB costs.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by Guspaz:

IPTV providers are required to deliver service over a closed network, either their own or via peering arrangements. There are no transit costs for IPTV because they're not allowed to let it pass through the public internet. The only capacity-based costs would be CBB costs.

EDIT: Clarification, "transit" normally refers to internet transit, not CBB costs.

This implies then the IPTV servers and headend equipment would need to be located at the peering ISPs data center? Does everyone in Canada operate out 151 Front? If so I don't see a problem I think.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

said by TypeS:

This implies then the IPTV servers and headend equipment would need to be located at the peering ISPs data center? Does everyone in Canada operate out 151 Front? If so I don't see a problem I think.

You can peer over a remote link like a LAN extension, but most IPTV providers are either located in or connected to 151 Front. The exception might be Colba, but they're not interested in peering with anybody. Furthermore, word is that Colba may be restricting their IPTV service to people connected to their own DSLAMs.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1

Dedicated WAN links are not cheap lol. That would definitely be an expensive monthly cost. But sounds like everyone's operating out of 151 Front anyway.