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Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

1 recommendation

reply to JohnInSJ

Re: Comcast CAS has to be stopped!

It's in the thief's best interest to do as much fear mongering as possible (this thread is a good example) to scare the law-abiding types into creating enough white noise to scare off enforcement efforts so he can continue to get away with his thievery. The support (or apathy) of the non-criminals towards enforcement efforts is no doubt infuriating to him.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.



Moropo
Premium
join:2002-07-28
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast
·America Online
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

Let me guess, you actually pirate stuff.

Way to miss the point of the issue there my friend...
--
math PhD student (University of Miami)


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

No, I understand the point completely:

said by Krisnatharok:

It's in the thief's best interest to do as much fear mongering as possible (this thread is a good example) to scare the law-abiding types into creating enough white noise to scare off enforcement efforts so he can continue to get away with his thievery. The support (or apathy) of the non-criminals towards enforcement efforts is no doubt infuriating to him.

--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


PeteC2
Got Mouse?
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-20
Bristol, CT
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to mweisberg

said by mweisberg:

And let me guess...you don't care that they can monitor what you do so long as it doesn't effect what you are doing. But the first time you get a CAS warning, you'll be shitting mad as you'll know you didn't do anything wrong because you don't do anything illegal.

Well, here is the whole thing in a nutshell: You are correct on both counts!

1. Since I am doing nothing illegal, I most certainly could care less about them monitoring for illegal activities!

2. However, also correct, you bet that if I got a CAS warning I would be hopping mad...because I would have done nothing to earn one...therefore indicating that there was a problem with the CAS system...in which case, yes, it would need to change.

I will not presuppose a problem that has yet to manifest itself. In other words - I won't lose a minute's sleep over CAS/6.
--
Deeds, not words


PeteC2
Got Mouse?
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-20
Bristol, CT
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Moropo

said by Moropo:

said by Krisnatharok:

Let me guess, you actually pirate stuff.

Way to miss the point of the issue there my friend...

Why no. It appears that you miss the point.

CAS/6 is only onerous to those who want to acquire property that is not rightfully theirs. When I was a kid, we simply called it stealing.

If it morphs into something else, then it can be dealt with at that time.

Krisnathorak called it as it is: Those who are mad at CAS/6 for being exactly what it is purported to be - a tool against theft of copyrighted content, try to enlist the ire of those who have nothing to fear from it in order to maintain their ability to steal media.
--
Deeds, not words


BronsCon

join:2003-10-24
Walnut Creek, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

1 recommendation

said by PeteC2:

said by Moropo:

said by Krisnatharok:

Let me guess, you actually pirate stuff.

Way to miss the point of the issue there my friend...

Why no. It appears that you miss the point.

CAS/6 is only onerous to those who want to acquire property that is not rightfully theirs. When I was a kid, we simply called it stealing.

If it morphs into something else, then it can be dealt with at that time.

Krisnathorak called it as it is: Those who are mad at CAS/6 for being exactly what it is purported to be - a tool against theft of copyrighted content, try to enlist the ire of those who have nothing to fear from it in order to maintain their ability to steal media.

Only onerous to those who want to acquire property that is not rightfully theirs? Right. Then why does it piss me off? I don't pirate shit (Pandora and Hulu do well enough for me and all the software I use is either free or already paid for) and even if I did, I'm not using an ISP who is participating in this bullshit.

I'm a systems and software engineering lead, I develop applications for a living, copyright is how I get paid. This. Pisses. Me. Off. Why? Because it costs participating ISPs money to implement and maintain the systems required to participate in CAS. They are not going to eat this cost; prices will go up. Why do I care if I'm not using one of those ISPs? Because then *my* ISP will see the opportunity to raise their prices, since they will still be competitive with the big players who have just raised theirs.

And the bigger point: Who the fuck do the RIAA and MPAA think they are? I all but stopped buying CDs around the same time I got my firs job and could afford more than one per month because of their bullshit tactics with DRM, namely the Sony rootkit fiasco. I've bought maybe a dozen MP3s through legit services (unless someone wants to tell me Amazon and the current incarnation of Napster are otherwise, in which case don't bother replying), so I've spent a grand total of $11.88 on music in the last 13 years; compare that to the $15/mo I was spending up to that point, compounded by the fact that this was allowance money and I basically stopped buying from them when I could have afforded 1 CD per week, or more, so figure they started losing $15/wk from me, $780/yr, $10,140 since they proved to me that they would rather temporarily annoy someone who might think about ripping a CD to MP3 and uploading it than treat their paying customers with any respect. Anyone with any amount of self respect has done the same. $10k multiplied by hundreds of thousands of people is billions of dollars, and still a low estimate as many would have bought more.

Piracy isn't what's killing the content industry. Shitty customer service is. CAS pisses me off because the RIAA was starting to show that they had changed their ways and I was starting to plan future music purchases. Those won't be happening now, because the content industry has, once again, shown that they do not care whether I pay them or not, they are going to treat me like a thief. That is why CAS pisses me off.

Perhaps you're projecting your reasons for being pissed onto others here? Personally, I used to pirate a large amount of software, back before I could afford it, while saving up to eventually buy it. I now own all of the software I use. My CDs are all ripped to MP3 and hidden in shoeboxes of shame (shame for the industry I supported by buying them) and the few DVDs and Blu Ray discs I have are kept in drawers, so I'm not showing my guests that I've spent my own money to support such a horrid industry. From the outside, I look like a huge pirate, but the opposite could not be more true. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you've got a fair bit of questionably-obtained content, yourself, however, given that you immediately jump to "anyone who doesn't like this is a dirty pirate".


Cthen

join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI
Reviews:
·Verizon Wireless..
reply to MJB

said by MJB:

if someone uploads their own music (not with the riaa or any major record label) to the pirate bay for people to download for free. The person will get a copyright notice for downloading the content that is suppose to be free..

RIAA/MPAA MAFIA Wants to Control The Market Place...

UUhh, no they won't. I upload the works of local artists (with written permission) on regular basis to promote them with Pirate Bay being one of the many public trackers I upload to.

You do realize that when you make stuff up no one will take you seriously?
--
"I like to refer to myself as an Adult Film Efficienato." - Stuart Bondek

ExoticFish

join:2008-08-31
Stuarts Draft, VA
reply to BronsCon

That made me giggle.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

First, you have to steal something.

At which time the victim of the theft should file a criminal complaint with the appropriate AG/DA.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


MJB

join:2012-01-29

riaa/mpaa want content control
did you watch the pirate bay afk documentary



dslcreature
Premium
join:2010-07-10
Seattle, WA
reply to PeteC2

said by PeteC2:

1. Since I am doing nothing illegal, I most certainly could care less about them monitoring for illegal activities!

Reporting an alleged violation is different from taking punitive action which CAS effectively does by making users jump through unnecessary hoops including paths involving unspecified CSA education and paying additional fees to restore access to a service they have already paid for. Whenever I see vigilantism I'm concerned.

If you have reason to think something illegal has been done you report it to the authorities or pursuit a civil remedy. Nobody has the right to take matters into their own hands.

gustavenla68

join:2011-02-24
Carlisle, PA
reply to tpkatl

said by tpkatl:

The music and movie people are under the (mistaken) belief that they are being stolen from. What they fail to realize is that a lot of downloaders would never have bought their stuff anyway. So there's perceived or imagined loss, not real lost sales.

So if I go to the store I can take anything as long as I was not planning to buy it otherwise?


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

said by JohnInSJ:

First, you have to steal something.

At which time the victim of the theft should file a criminal complaint with the appropriate AG/DA.

Or, in the case of use of internet in the theft, file a complaint with the ISP.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

said by JohnInSJ:

said by NormanS:

said by JohnInSJ:

First, you have to steal something.

At which time the victim of the theft should file a criminal complaint with the appropriate AG/DA.

Or, in the case of use of internet in the theft, file a complaint with the ISP.

You would report theft to an ISP? Why? No ISP has either police power, or judicial authority to act against criminals! That is why we have AGs and DAs!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

Yeah, and you would never report a theft you observed to a department store?



tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to NormanS

As you well know NormanS See Profile many artist choose to be represented, by studios covered by riaa/mpaa because the task of monitoring, notifying and perusing a judgments against individual copyright violators as well beyond the ability of a single artist.
Part of maintaining/retaining copyrights and/or patents REQUIRES the rights owner, or their agent/agency to ' vigorously' defend and peruse all known violators.
So basically the riaa/mpaa MUST continue their efforts as part of their fiduary resposiblity to their clients



dslcreature
Premium
join:2010-07-10
Seattle, WA

said by tshirt:

Part of maintaining/retaining copyrights and/or patents REQUIRES the rights owner, or their agent/agency to ' vigorously' defend and peruse all known violators.

No, you are confusing trademark with copyright law.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
reply to tshirt

That is true, but the RIAA and MPAA have shown in the very recent past that they take the responsibility of protecting their copyright a bit too overzealously, and even at times have erroneously reported violations that did not occur. I don't think you'd be able to come up with too many recent examples of relatively recent work that have had their protection status revoked due to neglection - its just not that fragile.

Even if I assume that everyone involved has the "best of intentions", its still an endrun around due process and more than likely in the end will be discontinued for a multitude of legal reasons.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to tshirt

said by tshirt:

As you well know NormanS See Profile many artist choose to be represented, by studios covered by riaa/mpaa because the task of monitoring, notifying and perusing a judgments against individual copyright violators as well beyond the ability of a single artist.
Part of maintaining/retaining copyrights and/or patents REQUIRES the rights owner, or their agent/agency to ' vigorously' defend and peruse all known violators.
So basically the riaa/mpaa MUST continue their efforts as part of their fiduary resposiblity to their clients

But I thought the discussion was, "theft", not "copyright"!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

Yeah, and you would never report a theft you observed to a department store?

Well, if it was theft, as contrasted with copyright violation.

Okay, let's try a serious over simplification. Reprise Records presses 100 copies of some singer's works, and puts them in the wholesale channel at $2.50 per album. 12 retailers buy up all 100 albums, and Reprise Records nets $250 in revenues. The 12 retailers put these albums on sale for $5.00 each, and sell out. The retailers net $500 in revenues. One of the buyers from one of the retailers, a certain Jack Sparrow, burns his album to .mp3s, and makes a torrent available. 1,000 torrenters grab this album. So what, exactly, was stolen?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

You would report theft to an ISP? Why? No ISP has either police power, or judicial authority to act against criminals! That is why we have AGs and DAs!

Because they enabled the crime, yeah. Cut the criminals off at the source.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to NormanS

I hear a lot of justification for theft. Pretending an IPR violation is not theft is changing the definition of the word to assuage a guilty conscience. And that's a feeble attempt at justifying actions you believe are immoral or illegal.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to tshirt

said by tshirt:

Part of maintaining/retaining copyrights and/or patents REQUIRES the rights owner, or their agent/agency to ' vigorously' defend and peruse all known violators.

If the violator were Oda Kaori, I would certainly be willing to 'peruse' her!

But copyright violations don't require "vigorous" defense for maintenance. However, to the extend that copyright violations can cause damage to the holder's revenue stream, it may be worth pursuit in the civil courts. The issue with that is proving that Jack Sparrow actually inflicted the harm.

And, since the ISP has no judicial authority under law, they can't adjudicate a tort.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by NormanS:

You would report theft to an ISP? Why? No ISP has either police power, or judicial authority to act against criminals! That is why we have AGs and DAs!

Because they enabled the crime, yeah. Cut the criminals off at the source.

You are assuming a crime has been committed.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

3 edits
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

I hear a lot of justification for theft. Pretending an IPR violation is not theft is changing the definition of the word to assuage a guilty conscience. And that's a feeble attempt at justifying actions you believe are immoral or illegal.

Strictly speaking, "theft" refers to depriving the rightful owner of tangible property of there possession of said property.

"Intellectual" property can't be stolen, as such. Calling piracy, "theft" is hyperbole, which only works because of the presumption that illegally distributed IP deprives the IPR holder of revenue. I can stretch that hyperbolic analogy to cover property damage: Putting a dent in the fender of my car is "theft" because I am deprived of the money I will spend on the repair.

Or, we can treat copyright for what it is, a civil tort.

Whether it is a crime, or a civil tort, we have a judicial process in place to review the claims. CAS, "Six Strikes", bypasses that process.

P.S. A little judicious searching came up with: "DOWLING v. UNITED STATES, 473 U.S. 207 (1985).

A Wikipedia article summarizes the out come thus:
quote:
... "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud.

I know a certain ICE/FBI website equates copyright infringement with theft, but I am reasonably certain that SCOTUS trumps DHS/DoJ.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

More strenuous verbal acrobatics.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

said by Krisnatharok:

Oh wow! I never knew you could only steal physical goods, and there is no such thing as online theft or piracy!!!

Talk about deluded.

Theft, fraud, and piracy are not interchangeable words for the same, identical concept.

And you are calling me, "delusional" for pointing that out?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

said by NormanS:

said by Krisnatharok:

Oh wow! I never knew you could only steal physical goods, and there is no such thing as online theft or piracy!!!

Talk about deluded.

Theft, fraud, and piracy are not interchangeable words for the same, identical concept.

And you are calling me, "delusional" for pointing that out?

I edited my post to tone down the sarcasm.

You were just now trying to twist words' meaning to escape the legal ramifications of the behavior you either take part in or are simply defending.

Call it what you will, it is illegal behavior.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by NormanS:

You would report theft to an ISP? Why? No ISP has either police power, or judicial authority to act against criminals! That is why we have AGs and DAs!

Because they enabled the crime, yeah. Cut the criminals off at the source.

You are assuming a crime has been committed.

I'm not assuming anything. The ISPs agreed to do this in exchange for not getting sued for aiding in a crime.

After 6 warnings, the ISP agrees to get the attention of the ALLEGED criminal (by putting them in a walled garden, for example.) Said ALLEGED criminal will then need to do something to assure the ISP that the repeated infringements will stop.

--
My place : »www.schettino.us


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to NormanS

said by NormanS:

"Intellectual" property can't be stolen, as such. Calling piracy, "theft" is hyperbole, ...

The FBI has a different opinion
»www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate···/ipr/ipr