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Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
reply to Jtmo

 

quote:
You can even PG&E Opt-out for a $10 a month charge to have a guy come out and read the meter.
I believe this is WELL WORTH IT!!! -- Forget the RF risks,IF YOU HAVE ANY ''SMART'' APPLIANCES THEY CAN BE CONTROLLED BY THEM!! (And monitored for usage stats,etc)

Its just another way to get tighter control on people!!

Speedy Petey

join:2008-01-19

said by Dude111:

-- Forget the RF risks,IF YOU HAVE ANY ''SMART'' APPLIANCES THEY CAN BE CONTROLLED BY THEM!! (And monitored for usage stats,etc)

Its just another way to get tighter control on people!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Sale on tinfoil hats. Aisle 7. lol


PSWired

join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD

I think the fact that Dude111 is advocating against them should give us a good idea of the risks

That said, smartmeter security exploits could be pretty nasty. Imagine some stuxnet-style malicious code that cycles the disconnect relay rapidly in all of the meters in a utility's service territory. How long would it take to restore service when everyone's meter contacts are burnt up simultaneously?



Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
reply to Speedy Petey

Something you should read my friend

»www.google.com/search?q=cache:ht···ance.pdf

One day someone came home AND THIER HOUSE WAS 80 DEGREES!! (The electric company shut off his air conditioners!)



Really i mean: YOU ARE PAYING THEM,WHAT GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO TURN YOUR STUFF OFF??


TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3

disregard.



shortckt
Watchen Das Blinken Lights
Premium
join:2000-12-05
Tenant Hell

1 recommendation

reply to Dude111

Oh No!!

said by Dude111:

Something you should read.... One day someone came home AND THIER HOUSE WAS 80 DEGREES!!....

Not going to bother opening the link to read that, so I'll make an edumacated guess that the customer had signed up for load shedding service in exchange for a lower rate. Our POCO offers that service too. One day the area's consumption was close to 100% and the POCO decided to shed some non-critical loads for awhile so they signalled AC off, consistent with the customer's agreement that allowed it during a power shortage. So what's the mystery? Where's the evil crime?

Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to Dude111

Re:  

said by Dude111:

Something you should read my friend

»www.google.com/search?q=cache:ht···ance.pdf

One day someone came home AND THIER HOUSE WAS 80 DEGREES!! (The electric company shut off his air conditioners!)



Really i mean: YOU ARE PAYING THEM,WHAT GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO TURN YOUR STUFF OFF??

I can't vouch for everyone, of course, but around here, "they" (PG&E) are given "the right to turn your stuff off" by the customer. It's an opt-in program.


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
Reviews:
·Champion Broadba..
reply to shortckt

Re: Oh No!!

Southern California Edison, (SCE), is the provider here. The smart meters can be read with a 24 hour delay. You simply access the SCE website with your account. It shows your usage by the hour for the previous 24 hours. The meter simply supplies information via a friendly computer generated report that is VERY clear and simple.

The meter has no power in controlling your usage. However, I do not recall if that was or was not an option for it to do so. I don't think so. However, by default it did not control it.

What I've described above is as good as it gets by my standards.
--
The signal is usually drowned out by the noise.



tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to Dude111

Re: The reality of electricty generation

said by Dude111:

YOU ARE PAYING THEM,WHAT GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO TURN YOUR STUFF OFF??

Electricity unlike other forms of energy is very difficult to store. The grid has to constantly maintain a delicate balance between generation and consumption. Peak power generation is extremely expensive.

Utilities offer discounts to customers if they allow power to be cut during peak times. I'm serviced by public service of NH with plain old mechanical meters. There are optional heating and hot water rates that disable use during peak times and other rates that allow the utility to disable power as needed during peak times using radio control typically a few time a year. Large user have been dealing with peak time of day charges for years.

Here is a link to the PSNH program called Heatsmart:
»www.psnh.com/SaveEnergyMoney/For···ing.aspx

Ultimately if the utility is unable to shed enough load they institute brownout procedures.

Personally I think time of day billing for residential customers will be a good thing, to reduce the need for expensive peaking plants. However rather then having the utility shed load directly I'd much rather see some sort of more autonomous system where your home network is aware of time of day energy costs and communicates with smart appliances to limit peak load.

/tom



djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO
reply to Blogger

Re: Oh No!!

said by Blogger:

Southern California Edison, (SCE), is the provider here. The smart meters can be read with a 24 hour delay. You simply access the SCE website with your account. It shows your usage by the hour for the previous 24 hours. The meter simply supplies information via a friendly computer generated report that is VERY clear and simple.

The meter has no power in controlling your usage. However, I do not recall if that was or was not an option for it to do so. I don't think so. However, by default it did not control it.

What I've described above is as good as it gets by my standards.

SCE has the Summer Discount Program (SDP). They come and install a box on your AC that gives them the option to control it. The've had this program for several years, well before smart meters. It has been great (saving an easy $40/mo during summer) up until last year. They got really carried away, cycling it on moderate days when the CA-ISO showed no shortfalls.

Edison is not forcing smart meter customers onto TOU rates, at least not yet.
--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.


SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to tschmidt

Re: The reality of electricty generation

said by tschmidt:

However rather then having the utility shed load directly I'd much rather see some sort of more autonomous system where your home network is aware of time of day energy costs and communicates with smart appliances to limit peak load.

/tom

That's what I'm hoping will come out of it. I don't mind a little time shifting of activities to get back some of that 25% increase I mentioned previously.
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

1 recommendation

reply to Blogger

Re: Oh No!!

said by Blogger:

The meter has no power in controlling your usage. However, I do not recall if that was or was not an option for it to do so. I don't think so. However, by default it did not control it.

The smartmeters installed by PG&E have the ability to communicate with (and control) electrical equipment in your home (using ZigBee home automation protocols) however for now this ability is not enabled. The stated goal is to provide a public website where the homeowner can use PG&E's smartgrid to control his/her appliances remotely. My expectation is that at some point in the future we are given a choice to either turn off some appliances at periods of high demand or keep them running at a premium rate (which I have no problem with as long as I get to make the choice).

The smartmeter can also communicate with an AC load shedding device (two options: disconnect relay or set-back thermostat). Those devices are optional but customers agreeing to install them will get a reduction on their monthly bill. I believe this option is just an interim solution until more elaborate controls are developed.
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire!

SCADAGeo

join:2012-11-08
N California
kudos:2
reply to djrobx

said by djrobx:

SCE has the Summer Discount Program (SDP).
---
It has been great (saving an easy $40/mo during summer) up until last year. They got really carried away, cycling it on moderate days when the CA-ISO showed no shortfalls.

I suspect you were affected by San Onofre going off-line in January 2012, and I wouldn't be surprised if the frequency of cycling increases this summer, too.

jeddak

join:2001-12-28
Visalia, CA
reply to djrobx

said by djrobx:

SCE has the Summer Discount Program (SDP). They come and install a box on your AC that gives them the option to control it. The've had this program for several years, well before smart meters. It has been great (saving an easy $40/mo during summer) up until last year. They got really carried away, cycling it on moderate days when the CA-ISO showed no shortfalls.

Up here in the Central Valley SCE has not noticeably cycled our A/C in a long while. A few years ago they got so carried away with the program that we nearly dropped out, though. Location, location, location, I guess.

Our meter does seem to incorporate a real time use display, which seems like an obvious good thing for any meter to employ. There has been no change in our bill since the installation of the meter. I have been impressed that in an area where cell phone connectivity is poor (to say the least) the meter seems to manage.
--
_Jed_

Speedy Petey

join:2008-01-19

1 recommendation

reply to shortckt

said by shortckt:

said by Dude111:

Something you should read.... One day someone came home AND THIER HOUSE WAS 80 DEGREES!!....

Not going to bother opening the link to read that, so I'll make an edumacated guess that the customer had signed up for load shedding service in exchange for a lower rate. Our POCO offers that service too. One day the area's consumption was close to 100% and the POCO decided to shed some non-critical loads for awhile so they signalled AC off, consistent with the customer's agreement that allowed it during a power shortage. So what's the mystery? Where's the evil crime?

Exactly!

This has NOTHING to do with smart meters. It is a remote override system that you opt into.

TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel

said by Speedy Petey:

said by shortckt:

said by Dude111:

Something you should read.... One day someone came home AND THIER HOUSE WAS 80 DEGREES!!....

Not going to bother opening the link to read that, so I'll make an edumacated guess that the customer had signed up for load shedding service in exchange for a lower rate. Our POCO offers that service too. One day the area's consumption was close to 100% and the POCO decided to shed some non-critical loads for awhile so they signalled AC off, consistent with the customer's agreement that allowed it during a power shortage. So what's the mystery? Where's the evil crime?

Exactly!

This has NOTHING to do with smart meters. It is a remote override system that you opt into.

Indeed, absolutely nothing to do with smart meters. Such devices to remotely turn off large non-critical loads have existed for several decades before the concept of smart meters was even invented.

The earliest of devices were purely electro-mechanical. The utility would inject a high frequency signal over the power lines to which the switching device would respond by either turning on or off. No electronics involved at all. Not exactly sure how they did it, probably some type of vibrating reed that would resonate at a specific frequency.


PSWired

join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD

Here's a video of one of those ripple injection motor-generator sets running:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4gouT4m0cM


I don't know what's on the receiver end, but the above system must have some sort of active electronics, since it's a coded pulse train that's delivered (based on the sound of the motor). I guess a simpler system could exist where the load device just filters for the signal frequency and closes a relay with the filter output.


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3

Very interesting stuff. I poked around a bit and was disappointed to find there is very little information online pertaining to how the ripple control receiver works. This may be because they were not widely deployed in the US.

However I was pleased to learn that in South Africa, a domestic water heater is called a "geyser".



SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by pike:

However I was pleased to learn that in South Africa, a domestic water heater is called a "geyser".

The smaller on demand heaters get called that in Ireland and Australia. In Ireland they pronounced it Geezers.