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bbhog

join:2010-07-05
North York, ON
reply to don_quixote

Re: [DSL] NEW RATES - Bell Ontario & Promo

said by don_quixote:

Not sure what to do yet... I guess I'll have to think about in the next little bit as to how it will all shake out.

Same boat as you, been with TSI since 2008. TSI has been good to me. I think I will end up going with TSI Cable 45/4 or 150/10. Although the Start 50/10 looks good. $2 cheaper, plus worry free 100% uploads 24/7 and modem rental cheaper by $3 (this might change once buy options become available).


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

1 edit
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

said by jmagder:

Sorry TypeS, but d4m1r is right. Phone cables have significantly higher attenuation than coaxial cable. Furthermore, the attenuation will grow at a much faster pace as frequencies increase on phone cables than coaxial.

To counteract this attenuation, Bell has to put the termination point for your DSL connection closer to your house. As the push for higher speeds increase, Bell will have to keep putting the termination point closer and closer to your house, to the point it is no longer economically feasible, hence the eventual change over to fiber.

Due to the nature of a coaxial cable, there is a much wider range of frequencies with far lower attenuation. So the termination point does not need to be as close to your house. This means that Rogers can increase the back-haul capacity at the termination point far longer than Bell can.

There are obviously influences from the backing infrastructure that connects up where your dsl/cable connection is terminated. But this doesn't change the fact that DSL suffers from much higher attenuation.

TypeS, I hope you realize the irony of your post claiming I am ignoring things when you entirely paid the post above and many others like it ZERO attention.

Others in this thread and other threads have been kind enough to educate non-technical folk on just why DSL sucks (which is more than I cared to do if you've noticed) and you totally ignore it and continue to tell us how that is not something we should care about and just let the ISPs handle the inherent faults of DSL....Right, because they've been doing an awesome job with all this stuff thus far! /irony

Anyway, I'm done here but please stop trying to pull others into your factually inaccurate bubble....No offense.

And others have responded to you as well and you ignore them as well. You're simply just being ignorant and obtuse.... "no offense".

I think you need to educate yourself. DSL does not "suck", you have absolutely no foundation for the statement. You're fanboyism of cable internet doesn't make it superior, sorry to burst your bubble.

@jmagder

I've acknowledged the xDSL is financially more expensive to deplay but its not prohibitively so or we'd see Bell charging higher prices for DSL. As for the other 33% well a good chunk of that would be Western and Maritime metro centers that would also be feasible for high speed access leaving pretty much rural Canada. Both MSOs and Telcos have ignored rural Canada, it densest matter which technology you want to put forward, as many parts the only access you get is Satellite or really expensive 3G/LTE.


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

Now THAT'S impressive LOL, even quoted one of the dam explanations someone else was kind enough to reply to him with and he STILL completely ignored it...Awesome. Won't even bother to quote the others people posted I guess as he'll just ignore those too.....

I give up, so yep, DSL is really really good technology, especially when your even 10KM from your local CO! Ignorance truly is bliss sometimes it seems...

And just for the record, I'm not even a fan of cable...I hate it too in fact. But it's still better than DSL. I'm actually a "fanboy" of gigabit fiber...But we all know now that won't happen for at least 20 years in this country because our priorities are to make DSL as cheap as possible!!! That is the key to innovation, speed, and accessibility to put Canada back on the digital map!!!
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


bjlockie

join:2007-12-16
Ottawa, DSL
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

said by afterburn999:

When can we expect these rates to take effect?

we'll try to get everything up as soon as we can for new signups. for existing users its more involved and we have to give notice and stuff like this.. legal stuff.. so we're still working through that.

Am I an existing user since I'm going from legacy to FFTN?
If yes, what legal stuff?


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc

They're required to give you 30 days notice before any changes to the service. Such as price, or cap, or speed, or whatnot.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


kovy

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

said by BliZZardX:

every port (maximum 192 for 7330 with expansion modules) could upload at 100Mb/s if backplane bandwidth supports that (almost always does)

The backplane bandwidth is irrelevant; the 7330 supports 192 subs on 4 cards, each of which only has a 1 Gbps connection to the shelf, and the overall shelf only supports 7Gbps of uplinks.

The end result is that if everybody tried to upload or download at the same time, you'd in fact be limited to 1000/(192/4)= ~20 Mbps.

EDIT: I think the expansion shelfs would get you beyond 192, but then you're still bound by the 7x1 Gbps of uplink from the host shelf...

I'm pretty sure it's 2gig now per shelf.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

Well, it's 7x1, so it's possible Bell chose to only deploy 2x1.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

I give up, so yep, DSL is really really good technology, especially when your even 10KM from your local CO! Ignorance truly is bliss sometimes it seems...

Wow. You have a lot vested in winning this argument

You are right, at some point DSL providers will probably have to abandon FTTN because the limited catchment area for each node won't be worth the investment compared to the alternatives. Cable is better in that regard but it has a technology shelf life too. No point in busting a lung advocating one over the other.

Forcing all Telcos away from continued investment in DSL isn't up to the CRTC and, please, respectfully, the discussion doesn't really belong in this thread.

I appreciate the advanced notice from Marc explaining TSI's new services. My focus is now on dry loop fees and modem rental fees. I have a self-sourced Sagemcom modem and would like to return the Cellpipe. Also, why can Start absorb dry loop whereas TSI cannot?

As a customer I don't want to squeeze too hard because I'd like to believe a few extra bucks per month allows TSI to invest in better network infrastructure. On the other hand is Start running just that much smaller/leaner? I dunno.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc

Ultimately there's not much difference left between DSL and cable anyhow, as changes have been made to them to look more and more similar, and they're both migrating towards an identical point anyhow (PON-based fibre).
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by Guspaz:

Ultimately there's not much difference left between DSL and cable anyhow, as changes have been made to them to look more and more similar, and they're both migrating towards an identical point anyhow (PON-based fibre).

The funniest thing about cable is the next likely step beyond DOC3 may be EPoC and in the draft I read, EPoC may use the same DMTM modulation VDSL2 uses which sort of makes it VDSL2-over-coax!


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

said by InvalidError:

said by Guspaz:

Ultimately there's not much difference left between DSL and cable anyhow, as changes have been made to them to look more and more similar, and they're both migrating towards an identical point anyhow (PON-based fibre).

The funniest thing about cable is the next likely step beyond DOC3 may be EPoC and in the draft I read, EPoC may use the same DMTM modulation VDSL2 uses which sort of makes it VDSL2-over-coax!

Not even close....you'd say the same thing if I told you the TDMA modulation that cable uses was the same modulation used in Digital cellphone service (1G/2G service) back in the day...

It would require a complete equipment overhaul to do that...and that's probably years away...years upon years....

They are migrating towards fibre, but I don't think you'll ever see Cable move to a "FTTH" model...its just not practical and they can push more service over their current equipment anyways...its just a matter of them being greedy.


coaxguy

join:2009-07-29
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bell Fibe
·Start Communicat..

said by nitzguy:

said by InvalidError:

said by Guspaz:

Ultimately there's not much difference left between DSL and cable anyhow, as changes have been made to them to look more and more similar, and they're both migrating towards an identical point anyhow (PON-based fibre).

The funniest thing about cable is the next likely step beyond DOC3 may be EPoC and in the draft I read, EPoC may use the same DMTM modulation VDSL2 uses which sort of makes it VDSL2-over-coax!

Not even close....you'd say the same thing if I told you the TDMA modulation that cable uses was the same modulation used in Digital cellphone service (1G/2G service) back in the day...

It would require a complete equipment overhaul to do that...and that's probably years away...years upon years....

They are migrating towards fibre, but I don't think you'll ever see Cable move to a "FTTH" model...its just not practical and they can push more service over their current equipment anyways...its just a matter of them being greedy.

Cogeco has FTTH service in the next neighbourhood over to me.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

said by coaxguy:

Cogeco has FTTH service in the next neighbourhood over to me.

Please explain this neighbourhood that you speak of....as I'm sure I would have heard about it. Or it would have been posted in the cogeco forum here.

I'll stand by my original assessment.

EDIT: you may be confusing Internet for Business through Cogeco Data Services (formerly Toronto Hydro Telecom) with Cogeco Cable Canada....they are 2 separate entities.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc

Does it require a complete equipment overhaul? They've already pushed their network out so far that the last mile is only a few hundred meters, and the equipment servicing that (like the 7330) often supports GPON cards anyhow. So they just have to replace the last-mile. I believe the same is true of cable head-ends...

Of course, once they're done, how they deliver their respective services might differ. Bell does IPTV, but Verizon does what a cable company probably would do and uses RFoG, which just takes the 800MHz or whatever of cable television spectrum and shoves it over optical.

Yes, Verizon FiOS TV is a cable television product :P The optical/coax switchover happens in your home rather than at the head-end, but after that it's cable TV.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile

FIOS uses QAM because there was no proven IPTV platform to choose form when they launched, and they weren't interested in making their own
--
Fiber Optics are the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR »Fiber Optic Forum.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

It would require a complete equipment overhaul to do that...and that's probably years away...years upon years....

EPoC (at least on the downstream) is basically VDSL2 with a RF front end to select which chunk of spectrum to tune into. Nothing particularly groundbreaking there.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc

But RFoG also makes sense for Videotron to deploy. Yes, the coax lines they use can theoretically pump ~5-10 Gbps through them, but that doesn't solve the problem that most of it is dedicated to television, and even SDV won't completely eliminate that (you still need enough SDV channels to let people watch anything).

I suspect that cablecos would move to fibre, and do RFoG to maintain their existing television infrastructure and customer equipment (cable boxes remain). That lets them keep the existing infrastructure in place while migrating people to IPTV.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



coaxguy

join:2009-07-29
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bell Fibe
·Start Communicat..

2 edits
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

said by coaxguy:

Cogeco has FTTH service in the next neighbourhood over to me.

Please explain this neighbourhood that you speak of....as I'm sure I would have heard about it. Or it would have been posted in the cogeco forum here.

I'll stand by my original assessment.

EDIT: you may be confusing Internet for Business through Cogeco Data Services (formerly Toronto Hydro Telecom) with Cogeco Cable Canada....they are 2 separate entities.

The end block of Winterberry Blvd in Thorold, including Juneberry Dr and White Ash Rd.

I'm pretty positive as I did the termination of the drops at the "parking lot", as well as a number of installs when I was a service tech for Cogeco. 6 Juneberry Dr was one of the last homes I did a service call at in fact.

If you google image 5 White Ash Rd, and do the street view, you can see the blue "warning, buried fiber optic service line" warning sticker on the side of the green ped on the boulevard.

ali gil

join:2009-08-21
North York, ON
reply to TSI Marc

Click for full size
old stats
Click for full size
new stats
hey guys I'm just hoping to get a second opinion on my stats. I just noticed that my max attainable rate increased from approximately 60mbps to 72mbps. I was originally told my line occupancy would be too high if i got the 10mbps upgrade from the 7mbps. Since my stats have improved do you guys think it's possible that I may now be eligible for the upgrade. What puzzles me is that my distance has not changed in any of this.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to coaxguy

said by coaxguy:

said by nitzguy:

said by coaxguy:

Cogeco has FTTH service in the next neighbourhood over to me.

Please explain this neighbourhood that you speak of....as I'm sure I would have heard about it. Or it would have been posted in the cogeco forum here.

I'll stand by my original assessment.

EDIT: you may be confusing Internet for Business through Cogeco Data Services (formerly Toronto Hydro Telecom) with Cogeco Cable Canada....they are 2 separate entities.

The end block of Winterberry Blvd in Thorold, including Juneberry Dr and White Ash Rd.

I'm pretty positive as I did the termination of the drops at the "parking lot", as well as a number of installs when I was a service tech for Cogeco. 6 Juneberry Dr was one of the last homes I did a service call at in fact.

If you google image 5 White Ash Rd, and do the street view, you can see the blue "warning, buried fiber optic service line" warning sticker on the side of the green ped on the boulevard.

How was the fibre terminated in the house then? I'm just curious as I've never heard of this and I'm sure others would be interested as well. If you could provide some insight on what equipment was used in the houses of these "FTTH" installs I'd be curious because all I see on White Ash Rd are Cable pedestals on the "empty" side of the street....if I had time to look around I'm sure I'd see the node somewhere in this area...looking for a larger size green box but I can't seem to find it at this point.

I do stand corrected there are FTTH deployments that were done by a company in brand new subdivisions, I can't remember, only that Rogers bought them out...the name is on the tip of my tongue but I can't remember those, I don't believe those are in large scale development anymore.

Anywho....back to the DSL, when does this become active Marc?


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by nitzguy:

It would require a complete equipment overhaul to do that...and that's probably years away...years upon years....

EPoC (at least on the downstream) is basically VDSL2 with a RF front end to select which chunk of spectrum to tune into. Nothing particularly groundbreaking there.

It might not seem groundbreaking if it was being built from scratch, but there's technical capability, and then there's practical capabilities .

Its still years and years away and would still require a complete overhaul to complete.

I only say this from an "upload" standpoint, after looking over the ...the current trunk amps and other equipment out there are not rated for 1000mhz+ on many different cable systems, while Rogers may have potentially built out to 1ghz on some of their systems, across the whole, many areas are at 860mhz, some even 750mhz and will probably not go any higher due to the overall capital cost of this equipment.

So with trying to use the 1150mhz-1300mhz spectrum, its still a ways off, heck even the document here -> »www.ieee802.org/3/epoc/public/ja···0112.pdf
shows some "unknowns" with "presence of taps/splitters/combiners are for "future study work"".

So future study work to me sounds like at least 5+ years away from being developed into a useable real world model.

While it looks great, it reminds me of a recent picture I saw about "High Speed rail in the US". It looks pretty and theoretically should move the country forward, the practicality is much much different.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by nitzguy:

So with trying to use the 1150mhz-1300mhz spectrum, its still a ways off, heck even the document here -> »www.ieee802.org/3/epoc/public/ja···0112.pdf
shows some "unknowns" with "presence of taps/splitters/combiners are for "future study work"".

If upstream over 1GHz turns out to be a no-go, they can always change the split from ~50MHz to ~150MHz - they are going to need to change every in-line amplifier and HFC node anyway and having only one return band would make things simpler/cheaper.

With cablecos rolling out a mix of SDV, IPTV and h264 QAMs while retiring analog, there may be a lot more available room under 1GHz by the time EPoC is finalized.

EHTL

join:2002-10-31
Canada
reply to Gami00

said by Gami00:

These rates aren't live yet.. he's just putting it here to show what it will probably look like when he does release them.

anyone thinking they can get these at this very moment is naive and just plan dumb.

Thank you for your comment. I am one of those navie and plain dumb.


coaxguy

join:2009-07-29
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bell Fibe
·Start Communicat..
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

How was the fibre terminated in the house then? I'm just curious as I've never heard of this and I'm sure others would be interested as well. If you could provide some insight on what equipment was used in the houses of these "FTTH" installs I'd be curious because all I see on White Ash Rd are Cable pedestals on the "empty" side of the street....if I had time to look around I'm sure I'd see the node somewhere in this area...looking for a larger size green box but I can't seem to find it at this point.

I do stand corrected there are FTTH deployments that were done by a company in brand new subdivisions, I can't remember, only that Rogers bought them out...the name is on the tip of my tongue but I can't remember those, I don't believe those are in large scale development anymore.

Anywho....back to the DSL, when does this become active Marc?

With an optical fiber node, similiar to this »www.electroline.com/product_rfog···tter.php

Installed in the CSE, with 2 coax risers running into the home, one carrying the converted signal and the other is connected to the battery backup.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by nitzguy:

So with trying to use the 1150mhz-1300mhz spectrum, its still a ways off, heck even the document here -> »www.ieee802.org/3/epoc/public/ja···0112.pdf
shows some "unknowns" with "presence of taps/splitters/combiners are for "future study work"".

If upstream over 1GHz turns out to be a no-go, they can always change the split from ~50MHz to ~150MHz - they are going to need to change every in-line amplifier and HFC node anyway and having only one return band would make things simpler/cheaper.

With cablecos rolling out a mix of SDV, IPTV and h264 QAMs while retiring analog, there may be a lot more available room under 1GHz by the time EPoC is finalized.

50-150 cuts through an interesting set of the spectrum...and CRTC will have to mandate the actual shutdown of analogue (and by that I mean the basic/basic service that still runs out there today)....

It looks intriguing that's for sure. It just flies in the face of what cable companies have been...truly slow to change and slow to spend money on capital upgrades knowing the ROI is really crappy. They would rather squeeze every single cent out of their current equipment vs. spending money upgrading.

Its the return side on cable which is really crappy unfortunately...here's to hoping they can fix it somehow...


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

I don't see how the CRTC could justify mandating the shutdown of analog cable, or if they even have the authority to do so. Nor am I sure why they'd want to, when all cable companies are already working on doing exactly that, with some carriers such as Shaw having already done it. The rest like Rogers or Videotron are in the process, having stopped selling analog cable.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

50-150 cuts through an interesting set of the spectrum...and CRTC will have to mandate the actual shutdown of analogue (and by that I mean the basic/basic service that still runs out there today)....

AFAIK, the analog shutdown is already over and cablecos have no obligation to provide analog.

The requirement to provide "basic" service including local programming available OTA can be met by putting those channels on digital-SD/HD (if they weren't already) and telling remaining analog subscribers to get a digital STB.

The main reason most cablecos still have analog is as a courtesy for people who are sticking with cable to avoid needing an STB. If Videotron killed analog, I will most likely go OTA.

Eug

join:2007-04-14
Canada

I'm on Rogers, and they are providing digital boxes for free that give us the original analogue channels, via a coax output. I have one in the guest room. (I had analogue in the guest room before.)

They're really small and unobtrusive boxes.

The downside is the quality out of these digital boxes sucks, no better than the original noisy analogue SD cable. In fact, I still get the interference I got before, which surprises me.

What I'd really like to see though is a small box that supports component out and HDMI out, and has remote compatibility, without being the size of a Scientific Atlanta 4642. HD would be nice, but even 480p would be welcome, as long as it were better quality than what you get out of real world coax TV connections.
--
Everything Apple



BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile

Rogers tried sending us a digital adapter for an analog account but we promptly returned it because while the box is "free" it adds an extra $2.99 Digital Services Fee to the bill
--
Fiber Optics are the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR »Fiber Optic Forum.



futureboy

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc

I take it by FTTN you mean everything that's "next generation" i.e not GAS even if you're on a remote node being fed by Fiber?