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nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to InvalidError

Re: [DSL] NEW RATES - Bell Ontario & Promo

said by InvalidError:

said by nitzguy:

It would require a complete equipment overhaul to do that...and that's probably years away...years upon years....

EPoC (at least on the downstream) is basically VDSL2 with a RF front end to select which chunk of spectrum to tune into. Nothing particularly groundbreaking there.

It might not seem groundbreaking if it was being built from scratch, but there's technical capability, and then there's practical capabilities .

Its still years and years away and would still require a complete overhaul to complete.

I only say this from an "upload" standpoint, after looking over the ...the current trunk amps and other equipment out there are not rated for 1000mhz+ on many different cable systems, while Rogers may have potentially built out to 1ghz on some of their systems, across the whole, many areas are at 860mhz, some even 750mhz and will probably not go any higher due to the overall capital cost of this equipment.

So with trying to use the 1150mhz-1300mhz spectrum, its still a ways off, heck even the document here -> »www.ieee802.org/3/epoc/public/ja···0112.pdf
shows some "unknowns" with "presence of taps/splitters/combiners are for "future study work"".

So future study work to me sounds like at least 5+ years away from being developed into a useable real world model.

While it looks great, it reminds me of a recent picture I saw about "High Speed rail in the US". It looks pretty and theoretically should move the country forward, the practicality is much much different.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by nitzguy:

So with trying to use the 1150mhz-1300mhz spectrum, its still a ways off, heck even the document here -> »www.ieee802.org/3/epoc/public/ja···0112.pdf
shows some "unknowns" with "presence of taps/splitters/combiners are for "future study work"".

If upstream over 1GHz turns out to be a no-go, they can always change the split from ~50MHz to ~150MHz - they are going to need to change every in-line amplifier and HFC node anyway and having only one return band would make things simpler/cheaper.

With cablecos rolling out a mix of SDV, IPTV and h264 QAMs while retiring analog, there may be a lot more available room under 1GHz by the time EPoC is finalized.

EHTL

join:2002-10-31
Canada
reply to Gami00

said by Gami00:

These rates aren't live yet.. he's just putting it here to show what it will probably look like when he does release them.

anyone thinking they can get these at this very moment is naive and just plan dumb.

Thank you for your comment. I am one of those navie and plain dumb.


coaxguy

join:2009-07-29
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bell Fibe
·Start Communicat..
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

How was the fibre terminated in the house then? I'm just curious as I've never heard of this and I'm sure others would be interested as well. If you could provide some insight on what equipment was used in the houses of these "FTTH" installs I'd be curious because all I see on White Ash Rd are Cable pedestals on the "empty" side of the street....if I had time to look around I'm sure I'd see the node somewhere in this area...looking for a larger size green box but I can't seem to find it at this point.

I do stand corrected there are FTTH deployments that were done by a company in brand new subdivisions, I can't remember, only that Rogers bought them out...the name is on the tip of my tongue but I can't remember those, I don't believe those are in large scale development anymore.

Anywho....back to the DSL, when does this become active Marc?

With an optical fiber node, similiar to this »www.electroline.com/product_rfog···tter.php

Installed in the CSE, with 2 coax risers running into the home, one carrying the converted signal and the other is connected to the battery backup.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by nitzguy:

So with trying to use the 1150mhz-1300mhz spectrum, its still a ways off, heck even the document here -> »www.ieee802.org/3/epoc/public/ja···0112.pdf
shows some "unknowns" with "presence of taps/splitters/combiners are for "future study work"".

If upstream over 1GHz turns out to be a no-go, they can always change the split from ~50MHz to ~150MHz - they are going to need to change every in-line amplifier and HFC node anyway and having only one return band would make things simpler/cheaper.

With cablecos rolling out a mix of SDV, IPTV and h264 QAMs while retiring analog, there may be a lot more available room under 1GHz by the time EPoC is finalized.

50-150 cuts through an interesting set of the spectrum...and CRTC will have to mandate the actual shutdown of analogue (and by that I mean the basic/basic service that still runs out there today)....

It looks intriguing that's for sure. It just flies in the face of what cable companies have been...truly slow to change and slow to spend money on capital upgrades knowing the ROI is really crappy. They would rather squeeze every single cent out of their current equipment vs. spending money upgrading.

Its the return side on cable which is really crappy unfortunately...here's to hoping they can fix it somehow...


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

I don't see how the CRTC could justify mandating the shutdown of analog cable, or if they even have the authority to do so. Nor am I sure why they'd want to, when all cable companies are already working on doing exactly that, with some carriers such as Shaw having already done it. The rest like Rogers or Videotron are in the process, having stopped selling analog cable.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

50-150 cuts through an interesting set of the spectrum...and CRTC will have to mandate the actual shutdown of analogue (and by that I mean the basic/basic service that still runs out there today)....

AFAIK, the analog shutdown is already over and cablecos have no obligation to provide analog.

The requirement to provide "basic" service including local programming available OTA can be met by putting those channels on digital-SD/HD (if they weren't already) and telling remaining analog subscribers to get a digital STB.

The main reason most cablecos still have analog is as a courtesy for people who are sticking with cable to avoid needing an STB. If Videotron killed analog, I will most likely go OTA.

Eug

join:2007-04-14
Canada

I'm on Rogers, and they are providing digital boxes for free that give us the original analogue channels, via a coax output. I have one in the guest room. (I had analogue in the guest room before.)

They're really small and unobtrusive boxes.

The downside is the quality out of these digital boxes sucks, no better than the original noisy analogue SD cable. In fact, I still get the interference I got before, which surprises me.

What I'd really like to see though is a small box that supports component out and HDMI out, and has remote compatibility, without being the size of a Scientific Atlanta 4642. HD would be nice, but even 480p would be welcome, as long as it were better quality than what you get out of real world coax TV connections.
--
Everything Apple



BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile

Rogers tried sending us a digital adapter for an analog account but we promptly returned it because while the box is "free" it adds an extra $2.99 Digital Services Fee to the bill
--
Fiber Optics are the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR »Fiber Optic Forum.



futureboy

@teksavvy.com
reply to TSI Marc

I take it by FTTN you mean everything that's "next generation" i.e not GAS even if you're on a remote node being fed by Fiber?


Eug

join:2007-04-14
Canada

1 edit
reply to BliZZardX

said by BliZZardX:

Rogers tried sending us a digital adapter for an analog account but we promptly returned it because while the box is "free" it adds an extra $2.99 Digital Services Fee to the bill

I wonder if that was a mistake. Rogers' CSRs are still very confused about these digital adapters. I wouldn't know though since I already have digital cable.
--
Everything Apple


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Eug

said by Eug:

What I'd really like to see though is a small box that supports component out and HDMI out, and has remote compatibility, without being the size of a Scientific Atlanta 4642. HD would be nice, but even 480p would be welcome, as long as it were better quality than what you get out of real world coax TV connections.

Videotron's non-PVR SD digital cable boxes are pretty small. Here are the relative sizes in inches:

HD PVR: 15.8" x 10.6" x 3.1"
HD: 11.8" x 8.7" x 2.8"
SD: 7.9" x 5.9" x 2.8"

For comparison:

SB6120 cable modem: 5.7" x 5.7" x 1.5"
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by nitzguy:

50-150 cuts through an interesting set of the spectrum...and CRTC will have to mandate the actual shutdown of analogue (and by that I mean the basic/basic service that still runs out there today)....

AFAIK, the analog shutdown is already over and cablecos have no obligation to provide analog.

The requirement to provide "basic" service including local programming available OTA can be met by putting those channels on digital-SD/HD (if they weren't already) and telling remaining analog subscribers to get a digital STB.

The main reason most cablecos still have analog is as a courtesy for people who are sticking with cable to avoid needing an STB. If Videotron killed analog, I will most likely go OTA.

That analogue shutdown was in regards to OTA transmitters, not cable companies. They've moved their "Value pack tiers" (that used to be trapped by filters) into digital only services, but I"m pretty sure if you unhook your digital box and plunk the cable into your TV you'll still get a range in the 2-13 range at the minimum I'm sure.

Again its a spectrum that wants to be avoided as Channel 2 analogue starts at 54mhz....there's a reason why when "digital" transmitters OTA avoid this spectrum in the Channel 2-6 range because of the issues it causes...I don't know if it'd be ideal for upstream capacity because of all of the general noise in this band...

But I'm sure the science types will have it all figured out soon.

The reason why the digital adapters came about because channels like TSN and Sportsnet went to "digital" only, but local channels like your local CBC/CTV/Weather channel/et al are still available on regular cable...although again this may change based on the actual cable provider itself, ie. Shaw might have different channels vs Rogers vs Cogeco vs Eastlink...heck its funny my gf lives in an area that is analogue only....in kinda the middle of nowhere...but she gets channels 2-29, just straight into the tv, no digital box, no nothing...its fun to watch TSN on Channel 6.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by nitzguy:

That analogue shutdown was in regards to OTA transmitters, not cable companies.

I know the shutdown was for OTA. My point was that there are no regulatory obligations for analogue on cable, cablecos can turn off analog whenever they want, all they need to do is move whatever remaining analog subscribers and analog-only channels they have to digital first.

said by nitzguy:

Again its a spectrum that wants to be avoided as Channel 2 analogue starts at 54mhz....there's a reason why when "digital" transmitters OTA avoid this spectrum in the Channel 2-6 range because of the issues it causes...I don't know if it'd be ideal for upstream capacity because of all of the general noise in this band...

The noise over the 54-90MHz range is unlikely to be any worse than the 1-45MHz one and with cable nodes becoming increasingly small due to splits, ingress noise from the environment is also getting that much weaker. We aren't in the early days of cable where coax runs could extend for several kilometers and were poorly shielded enough that OTA channels could bleed badly enough into cable to the point of almost overpowering the cable signal for subscribers far down the line.

Today's runs are only a few hundred meters and the cables have much better shielding with improved connectors, taps, splitters, etc. so ingress noise is nowhere near as big a problem as it used to be 25-30 years ago.

keenmay

join:2010-08-22
reply to TSI Marc

bah, I'm keeping my 6mbps and my POTS phone, so no saving for me. Most of the saving is from the dryloop fee that is now waived.



Crowbar1

join:2009-06-23
Toronto , ON

said by keenmay:

I'm keeping my 6mbps and my POTS phone

X2 , if you want answers via the direct forum , they'll just say they don't know anything ...

Walter Dnes

join:2008-01-27
Thornhill, ON
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

Don't want to explain everything again but do a little search on these forums or even wikipedia how DSL works and you'll see it was always a bad fit for Canada but unfortunately, people with the same mentality as yours (priority on "consumer pricing", whatever that is) are holding the rest of us 21st century folk back....

What about YOUR mentality that places a priority on "consumer pricing"? "Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting". But seriously, have you considered that there is no compelling reason for gigabit fibre for many Canadians? If not for being a hockey fan, and subscribing to NHL Gamecenter Live, I'd still be OK with the 640Kbit service. As it is, I upgraded a few years ago to 5 (which became 6) megabit ADSL. My current desktop (a 2007 Dell with onboard Intel GPU) can only handle the lowest-speed feed of NHL games. I've got a newer HTPC hooked up to my 50" plasma in my living-room for the highest-speed feed. Not quite HD, but better than SD quality.

And please don't tell me to go cable. From everything I've read, cable sucks. There are tons of cable horror stories on this forum. A DHCP server at Rogers broke down, and Teksavvy Cable customers couldn't log on for a week. Cable customers, whose super-duper speeds can allegedly smoke my 6 mbps ADSL, find Youtube 480 SD videos lagging/buffering. Meanwhile, I get 1080p HD Youtube videos just fine, thank you. One of my former co-workers, who lives in the same condo building I do, told me she and her husband quit Rogers because the TV service was out half the time. Bell has FTTN at this building, and had a Fibe-TV promotional event. Teksavvy's website says I qualify for 25 megabit ADSL service at my postal code. But why bother?

GuardianU

join:2009-09-30
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to Eug

You might want to have Rogers come out and check your line. I just setup one of those boxes and the quality is perfect. (On an old Tube TV) I had Rogers come in and put down new cable after the tech came and found that there was a problem with the line. You may not have enough signal strength or there could be an incorrect splitter or too many of them that degrade the signal.

(I also believe the $2.99 fee someone else was talking about is because that person is on an old analog account. I have no monthly fee for having the free box. It probably has to do with your package.)

Back to the DSL, I'm eagerly awaiting news as to when I can switch and what the VDSL modem will cost to buy.



AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 edit
reply to TSI Marc

On the matter of the pots phone increase, I had a chance to think about this last night after the initial shock wore off. I have to agree with others that although naturally I am not happy about paying more, in perspective, the service has been very reliable and basically "increase free" since I joined up back in Jan. 2009. It does still offer value for me and I am sure that I would be paying much more if I had stayed with BHell for the same service.

Knowing TSI as I do, and based on their history of transparency, I am quite sure that Marc would not have increased this fee if it wasn't necessary.

I may indeed switch to TekTalk eventually if I can feel comfortable about the reliability in emergency situations. I will explore this and others as a potential option.
--
BHell... A Public Futility.


Calmuser

join:2011-10-27
Canada
reply to TSI Marc

I guess we won't be getting an answer as to why the 10 and 15 rates went up while the 25 went down..



SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to Walter Dnes

said by Walter Dnes:

said by d4m1r:

Don't want to explain everything again but do a little search on these forums or even wikipedia how DSL works and you'll see it was always a bad fit for Canada but unfortunately, people with the same mentality as yours (priority on "consumer pricing", whatever that is) are holding the rest of us 21st century folk back....

What about YOUR mentality that places a priority on "consumer pricing"? "Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting". But seriously, have you considered that there is no compelling reason for gigabit fibre for many Canadians? If not for being a hockey fan, and subscribing to NHL Gamecenter Live, I'd still be OK with the 640Kbit service. As it is, I upgraded a few years ago to 5 (which became 6) megabit ADSL. My current desktop (a 2007 Dell with onboard Intel GPU) can only handle the lowest-speed feed of NHL games. I've got a newer HTPC hooked up to my 50" plasma in my living-room for the highest-speed feed. Not quite HD, but better than SD quality.

And please don't tell me to go cable. From everything I've read, cable sucks. There are tons of cable horror stories on this forum. A DHCP server at Rogers broke down, and Teksavvy Cable customers couldn't log on for a week. Cable customers, whose super-duper speeds can allegedly smoke my 6 mbps ADSL, find Youtube 480 SD videos lagging/buffering. Meanwhile, I get 1080p HD Youtube videos just fine, thank you. One of my former co-workers, who lives in the same condo building I do, told me she and her husband quit Rogers because the TV service was out half the time. Bell has FTTN at this building, and had a Fibe-TV promotional event. Teksavvy's website says I qualify for 25 megabit ADSL service at my postal code. But why bother?

FYI in my experience NHL Gamecenter isn't great on Rogers cable because of node congestion in my area (High Park, Toronto). It -works-, but constantly flips between HD and SD feeds as the streaming system decides it's too slow for HD and cycles down, then cycles back up when it finds the bandwidth acceptable again.

TekSavvy DSL is basically locked on HD from game start to end.

Eug

join:2007-04-14
Canada

3 edits

Consistent speed is better than uber high top speed

said by GuardianU:

You might want to have Rogers come out and check your line. I just setup one of those boxes and the quality is perfect. (On an old Tube TV) I had Rogers come in and put down new cable after the tech came and found that there was a problem with the line. You may not have enough signal strength or there could be an incorrect splitter or too many of them that degrade the signal.

I've indeed had signal issues, so Rogers has come by several times, and eventually installed a signal amplifier in the house and replaced some splitters, and then went as far as installing RG11 to my house (replacing the old RG6). However, I have many active outlets in the house. In fact, that's one reason I'm a little hesitant to install Rogers cable internet. Doing that would lower the signal to the rest of the house significantly, potentially impacting TV viewing. The other reason is peak time slowdowns for cable internet downloads.

With that amplifier and RG11 installation my digital signal is now OK for TV. Both HD and SD look fine 8300HD PVRs and 3250HD. Still, that digital adapter has horrid quality in comparison.

BTW, during a reno I replaced a lot of my existing cable (a lot of which was RG59) with brand new RG6. Most of it was the regular builders' RG6 you find at Rona, but for a couple of critical lines I installed higher end Belden cable. To my pleasant surprise, it actually makes a small and consistent signal strength difference even for regular residential distances.

said by Walter Dnes:

My current desktop (a 2007 Dell with onboard Intel GPU) can only handle the lowest-speed feed of NHL games. I've got a newer HTPC hooked up to my 50" plasma in my living-room for the highest-speed feed. Not quite HD, but better than SD quality.

Meanwhile, I get 1080p HD Youtube videos just fine, thank you. One of my former co-workers, who lives in the same condo building I do, told me she and her husband quit Rogers because the TV service was out half the time. Bell has FTTN at this building, and had a Fibe-TV promotional event. Teksavvy's website says I qualify for 25 megabit ADSL service at my postal code. But why bother?

Having to constantly have long buffering times with high bitrate YouTube HD would be really irritating. But even more irritating would be the limitation of quality on other content, such as your NHL games, or in my case, Netflix HD.

I don't really need 25 Mbps, but I wouldn't be happy with less than a 15 Mbps account. 15+ Mbps allows you to have Netflix 1080p SuperHD playing and a background large file downloading to your computer, without significantly impacting surfing at the same time. It'd be pushing it though, and 25 Mbps adds extra cushion, while also providing high upload speeds (10 Mbps up in this case) if you want to upload an HD video to Vimeo or something for example.

said by SimplePanda:

FYI in my experience NHL Gamecenter isn't great on Rogers cable because of node congestion in my area (High Park, Toronto). It -works-, but constantly flips between HD and SD feeds as the streaming system decides it's too slow for HD and cycles down, then cycles back up when it finds the bandwidth acceptable again.

TekSavvy DSL is basically locked on HD from game start to end.

Indeed. As I've said before, on non-aggregated TPIA, TSI cable sucks in my area. I'm hoping for better for ATPIA, but we shall see. I'll let others be the guinea pigs, but I do know that people on Rogers on this POI also sometimes do have problems.

As I've said before, after a certain threshold, perhaps around 20 Mbps-ish, I value consistency more than top speed. I also like having good uploads, so TSI's 25 VDSL2 plan seems appropriate. This is not to say that VDSL2 is perfect, but judging by posts in this forum, in my area, my experience with VDSL2 has been much better than TSI customers with cable. YMMV.
--
Everything Apple

mkay

join:2008-04-13
Kingston, ON
reply to TSI Marc

Re: [DSL] NEW RATES - Bell Ontario & Promo

I wish bell would install a damn remote in this city.
The new 6mbps tier is cheaper than what i am currently paying for 2mbps 75gb(1.5mbps actual speed).

Its also been going down all the time for a week now because of ice/snow melting and freezing on the lines.


Eug

join:2007-04-14
Canada

said by mkay:

I wish bell would install a damn remote in this city.

No remotes in Kingston?
--
Everything Apple


PlatooN

join:2007-02-13
Kitchener, ON
reply to mkay

said by mkay:

I wish bell would install a damn remote in this city.
The new 6mbps tier is cheaper than what i am currently paying for 2mbps 75gb(1.5mbps actual speed).

Its also been going down all the time for a week now because of ice/snow melting and freezing on the lines.

ice and snow melting and freezing on the lines should NOT affect your sync. I suspect the link is nicked somewhere, and MIGHT actually be the reason you can only get 2mbps!

JeanInNepean

join:2012-09-19
Nepean, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy TekTalk
·voip.ms
·Primus Talkbroad..
reply to mkay

If you see a degradation of your signal during the melt, you will probably experience a lot of sync losses (that's what happened to me). Just plug your modem directly at the demarc and if you have loss of sync/bad signal, you should contact TekSavvy so they can send a Bell technician to look at your line.

In my case, they just switched the pairs around, but the tech told me if the lines had both been damaged, they would have replaced them.



BigBoy55

@bell.ca

Any word on when these will be available or the prices for the 50/10?


Foristality

join:2010-12-04
M2K 6T8
reply to TSI Marc

Will there be changes on the cable?


Eug

join:2007-04-14
Canada
reply to TSI Marc

Data usage cap: Cable is download only, but what about DSL?

Currently on DSL, the data usage cap applies to downloads and uploads combined.

In the Rogers cable thread, Marc has stated that the usage cap applies only to downloads. Does that mean this download-only cap is only for cable? Cable uploads would essentially be free.

I did a look-see through this Bell thread again and can't find any similar statement for DSL, but it is possible I may have missed it.
--
Everything Apple



xxgg

join:2004-01-15
reply to TSI Marc

Re: [DSL] NEW RATES - Bell Ontario & Promo

Quick Question:

Since...
"The promotion is likely to be available for the rest of the year".

Those on 10Mbps or grandfathered 12Mbps like me will be upgrading to 15/1 DSL (if availble) since it actually is slightly cheaper ?

Hopefully 'Likely' will be likely.