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SpHeRe31459
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join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA

4 edits

SpHeRe31459 to DocDrew

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to DocDrew

Re: [HD] FIOS Moving to MPEG-4 HD

said by DocDrew:

said by SpHeRe31459:

said by Joe12345678:

in some cases the in home wiring / wiring to pole may need to be replaced.

That really has nothing to do with the move to MPEG4, any wiring issues would still exist regardless of the codec used for the delivery of channels...

Actually when you start using higher compression, small problems that weren't noticeable previously might become a noticeable problem. That's the usual tradeoff, higher compression rates for less tolerance on error rates, kinda like QAM64 vs QAM256.

What you're thinking of is the QAM encoding schema, which you mentioned. But those cabling issues have nothing to do with the transport stream payload being carried on the QAM in-and-of-itself, which is where the MPEG4 codec comes in. A customer could have problems with tuning a given frequency on their cable line regardless of what video compression is used. The QAM sensitivity is about tuning in a given frequency and then getting a stable error free data stream. The data type inside the stream is basically irrelevant.
SpHeRe31459

SpHeRe31459 to SeattleMatt

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to SeattleMatt
This is a good overview from PBS outlining the benefits to a move to MPEG4/AVC it also discusses it from a cable provider perspective, not just from an OTA one, along with future looking moves to alternative containers to TS, etc.

»secure.connect.pbs.org/c ··· dman.pdf
BiggA
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join:2005-11-23
Central CT

1 recommendation

BiggA to DocDrew

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to DocDrew
If they're so lazy that they can't unplug the box, drive to the service center, get a new one, drive back and plug it in, then they should be charged a nice, profitable rate for the cable company to send someone out to do it for them.

andyross
MVM
join:2003-05-04
Aurora, IL

andyross

MVM

Many people break out in hives trying to figure out what you plug into what. It's one thing with a HDMI, but many older TV's may be using composite or component, and that can get very confusing for many people.
mariod
join:2009-06-16

mariod

Member

Many people break out in hives at the thought of cooking dinner, too. They pay a premium to get takeout every night.

If you want someone else to do something for your benefit, you have to pay for it.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to andyross

Member

to andyross
This reminds me of then time my elderly mother and her cousin had to install a new voice modem down in North Carolina. Took them two hours and a call to me to find the RJ11 phone jack hidden behind a sticker that said "remove for phone"
BiggA
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join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to andyross

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to andyross
OMG! You have to plug the red into the red, the blue into the blue, the green into the green, it's SO complicated! If people are that retarded, they deserve to pay a hefty installation fee from the cable company.

andyross
MVM
join:2003-05-04
Aurora, IL

andyross

MVM

Believe me, even that is hard for alot of people. Not to mention trying to tell the different between RF IN and RF OUT and just reading tiny text stamped into the metal in a cramped or dim area.

DocDrew
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said by BiggA:

OMG! You have to plug the red into the red, the blue into the blue, the green into the green, it's SO complicated! If people are that retarded, they deserve to pay a hefty installation fee from the cable company.

I've seen MULTIPLE people plug a device side USB cable into an ethernet port and wonder why their internet connection didn't work... They figure it fits so it must go there and those connectors look NOTHING alike. Imaging the problems when they do look the same.

This is the sort of stuff that makes large scale user equipment changes take a long time. This stuff creates trouble calls and calls for installation of "simple" things.

Yes, Comcast can charge for it, but that really looks bad when it's a Comcast box changed for an upgrade Comcast is doing that many customers won't see the benefits in doing. MPEG4 vs MPEG2 is "technobabble" to most.

What exactly is the end goal of a MPEG2 to MPEG4 change, that most customers (the average Joe) will understand, want, AND see? More channels? Is that what they want?
SpHeRe31459
Premium Member
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA

4 edits

SpHeRe31459

Premium Member

said by DocDrew:

I've seen MULTIPLE people plug a device side USB cable into an ethernet port and wonder why their internet connection didn't work... They figure it fits so it must go there and those connectors look NOTHING alike.

I have to say I just saw this exact issue yesterday at work. Someone decided to mess with their printer without asking us for help (we're their IT people, we're in the same building two floors down) and so re-hooked up their USB cable into the printer's optional (and disabled) Ethernet port, and then wondered why their printer showed up as offline in the Devices and Printers control panel.

However the A/V cable situation is a little less dire. Comcast includes really clear big instructions with their new self-install kits from what I've seen of them. They even include an HDMI cable with the HD kits. »customer.comcast.com/hel ··· all-kit/

There are installation help videos that the included paper docs tell you about here: »customer.comcast.com/hel ··· -devices

I have to say their installation help/instructions have come a long way. The one thing they could do that would help is to color code the connectors on the included coax and HDMI cables, so they can refer to the "cable with the purple on it" or whatever. Since those cables aren't inherently color coded (unlike composite or component cables).

Many people will just ask someone at least slightly more tech savvy then they are (i.e. a son or daughter, a grandchild, or a tech savvy neighbor, etc.) to come over and help them or they'll just call Comcast support for a truck roll. Not really any way around it. It's certainly no worse than the analog phase-out where tons of people who had analog "cable ready" TV's so they've never had to care about a set-top box (or DTA) suddenly needed one and had to do self-installs.
said by DocDrew:

What exactly is the end goal of a MPEG2 to MPEG4 change, that most customers (the average Joe) will understand, want, AND see? More channels? Is that what they want?

Yep ideally more channels and with less overall compression issues, so better image quality too.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to DocDrew

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to DocDrew
DrDrew it's probably more HD channels and/or better, sharper, clearer looking video and crisper audio. »www.thebuzzmedia.com/com ··· on-fios/

»www.avsforum.com/t/10082 ··· eenshots
Mike Wolf

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Sorry to hear about the printer screwup, Hope you get the Ethernet working again.
SpHeRe31459
Premium Member
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA

1 edit

SpHeRe31459

Premium Member

said by Mike Wolf:

Sorry to hear about the printer screwup, Hope you get the Ethernet working again.

LOL, it has nothing to do with me personally. I think you misread that part of my post. It was at work, and there's no problem, it was just a silly user error, they attempted to put a USB cable into an Ethernet jack on an HP printer, it's no problem since it doesn't even make contact with the jack properly (so it didn't short anything out), and the jack was disabled in the printer's configuration anyway. It was just a recent anecdote that supports Dr. Drew's point about people not knowing their USB ports from their Ethernet ports from their HDMI ports, etc.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

Oh ok. Why isn't the Ethernet used?
mariod
join:2009-06-16

2 recommendations

mariod to SeattleMatt

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to SeattleMatt
But again, I don't care if people don't know how to plug their device in. They just have to pay for someone to help them. That's how the world works.

If you don't know how to change the oil in your car, you have to pay a mechanic.
If you don't know how to unclog your toilet, you have to pay a plumber.
If you don't know how to hook up your TV, you have to pay someone to do it.

I don't know why people still act like this is a problem.
The Q
join:2008-06-26
Collegeville, PA

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The Q to Mike Wolf

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to Mike Wolf
said by Mike Wolf:

DrDrew it's probably more HD channels and/or better, sharper, clearer looking video and crisper audio. »www.thebuzzmedia.com/com ··· on-fios/

»www.avsforum.com/t/10082 ··· eenshots

Any links or information more current that 2008? I'm sure some things may have changed (better or worse) from both providers in the past five years...

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

Don't think so unfortunately, bfdtv seems to have dropped off the internet for a while now. I'd love to find out if these issues have been resolved after all this time.
SpHeRe31459
Premium Member
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA

2 edits

SpHeRe31459 to The Q

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to The Q
said by The Q:

said by Mike Wolf:

DrDrew it's probably more HD channels and/or better, sharper, clearer looking video and crisper audio. »www.thebuzzmedia.com/com ··· on-fios/

»www.avsforum.com/t/10082 ··· eenshots

Any links or information more current that 2008? I'm sure some things may have changed (better or worse) from both providers in the past five years...

I would say the currently quality is quite a bit better than it was in 2008. Things aren't nearly as fuzzy and blocky as those demo images from the news article. Circa 2008 seemed to be a real low point for Comcast's image quality and they took a huge beating, even in the mainstream press, for it.

I know they've been more careful about how they bundle their HD channels in their QAMs now, (i.e. combining one higher data rate channel with two lower data rate ones), and I think they've gotten better adaptive rate shaping encoders. However, they are definitely still quite compressed and fast motion still definitely breaks up into macroblocks, but it's generally not too bad. Discovery HD still seems to be pretty prone to it.

Here's more recent comments in the same AVS thread about the quality from 2011, confirming Comcast has gotten much better/smarter with their HD channel bundling.
»www.avsforum.com/t/10082 ··· 21122174

PaulGo
join:2005-01-29
Gaithersburg, MD

PaulGo

Member

I agree Comcast has gotten a lot better. Part of the problem was they had new equipment that they fully did not optimize before deployment. I also believe Comcast uses less compression on VOD and the picture quality appears a bit better. I also think that a lot of the problems customers are now blaming on Comcast over compression may be attributable to other causes such as digital breakup caused by low signal strength.*

DocDrew
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DocDrew to mariod

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to mariod
said by mariod:

I don't know why people still act like this is a problem.

The problem is that it slows down MPEG4 deployment because it slows down the box swap rate and increases the cost of box swaps.
BiggA
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Central CT
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BiggA to DocDrew

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to DocDrew
If they're that stupid, then they should pay a nice, fat fee to the cable company to come and swap their box.

Comcast would give the user the option of doing it for free, maybe even though the mail so the user does nothing, and they could even give them a free rental or something when they get the new box active, plus they'd get way more DVR capacity so they look like they are generous, and then offer a nice, hefty fee for the idiots who can't/won't do a simple cable box swap.

It's not hard to explain. You just say something like "We are transitioning from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 for HD channels. MPEG-4 allows us to fit 5 channels into the space that we currently use for 3 channels, so we can offer you even more fantastic HD programming. MPEG-4 also offers even better picture quality for today's advancing HDTV technology." Nothing hard at all, even if someone is clueless and has no clue what MPEG-4 actually is. You could replace "MPEG-2" and "MPEG-4" in that with gibberish words, and it would still make sense.

Better quality. More capacity. They could add more linear channels, they could offer faster internet speeds, sports packages, etc. They could even free up space for some HEVC 4K channels.

@SpHeRe31459... Exactly. Get rid of the MPEG-2 PQ issues while adding channels. Sounds like a win-win to me. Heck, I'd like to see the cable and satellite companies get higher bitrate feeds from the broadcasters, and pass those on...
BiggA

BiggA to mariod

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Yup. Pretty much.

@SpHeRe31459: Comcast's image quality took a nose dive when they rolled out more channels, as they started triple-channeling. They have done some things to tweak them like you say, but fundamentally, you can't get 3 good quality HD channels on a QAM using MPEG-2.

They are also fighting an uphill battle, as 5-8 years ago, that 46" RPTV looked fine with a lot of crap, but today the 60-70" 1080p LED-LCD is a whole different story.
SpHeRe31459
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join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA

SpHeRe31459

Premium Member

said by BiggA:

Yup. Pretty much.

@SpHeRe31459: Comcast's image quality took a nose dive when they rolled out more channels, as they started triple-channeling. They have done some things to tweak them like you say, but fundamentally, you can't get 3 good quality HD channels on a QAM using MPEG-2.

Yep all the more reason why to move to MPEG4
said by BiggA:

They are also fighting an uphill battle, as 5-8 years ago, that 46" RPTV looked fine with a lot of crap, but today the 60-70" 1080p LED-LCD is a whole different story.

Indeed. The flaws in the compression became much more obvious when I moved from a 50" TV to a 60" TV.

I have to say at least Comcast isn't as soft as U-verse, my grandparents have it, and man is AT&T's idea of HD compressed to hell and very soft, it's more of a EDTV rather than an HDTV feed, and that's only a 42" TV. It also is prone to far more random macroblocking in motion and in general. So I'm thankful for the image quality Comcast has been able to retain even now.

cypherstream
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cypherstream to DocDrew

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said by DocDrew:

Putting them on and off means constantly pushing out channel maps to the boxes or the boxes generate errors which generate trouble calls. Neither case is good for the cable operator or thier customers.

Often it also means reconfiguring large amounts of equipment across multiple sites and pushing it out to a large area.

It's prone to mistakes and doesn't really net the operator anything but problems and a scheduling nightmare.

You don't need SDV for sports. SDV is just a good way to handle bandwidth shortages at the edge by switching channels that aren't watched full time by a large number of users. It allows the operator to use that channel space on a dynamic basis for other channels customers may want to watch. It automates and manages all that on off switching you're suggesting on a much finer scale to the point where it's seamless for the vast majority of users.

I just came across this where a qam may appear overutilized and impossible to do in MPEG2 but it contains a mix of part time feeds where no every PID in the QAM is active.

For instance a QAM that contains all the Big Ten Xtra channels PLUS RedZone HD and SD, along with some other content. Since Big 10 games don't interfere with the NFL, they fit in the qam because RedZone HD and RedZone SD are not broadcasting, or vice versa. This is sort of 'back end' sdv though nothing really is switched. Maps are the same, you just get a temporarilly off air or channel will be available shorty message on the set top box if that pid is transferring 0 bytes. Nothing needs to be changed at the edge.

Its just the incoming source at the SHE where either a feed from (BigTen / Redzone / insert your exclusive sports ch here) is pushing data out its assigned multicast ip address/port or not.
BiggA
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Yeah, Comcast is walking a fine line with quality. AT&T just threw it totally out the window. I actually don't see U-Verse as being soft, but rather having fantastic resolution with absolutely horrendous compression artifacts to the point where it's unwatchable.

DocDrew
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DocDrew to cypherstream

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said by cypherstream:

...This is sort of 'back end' sdv though nothing really is switched. Maps are the same, you just get a temporarilly off air or channel will be available shorty message on the set top box if that pid is transferring 0 bytes. Nothing needs to be changed at the edge.

Depending on how the gear is setup on the backend this either causes status alarms all over the place and they're ignored or the alarms aren't setup.

Leaving channels errored out on purpose for periods of time just seems like a bad idea for a variety of reasons to me. It gets to be difficult to tell whether it's out on purpose or it's an actual outage and video should be playing.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

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So it's due to incompetence on whoever setup or was told how to setup these things?

cypherstream
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cypherstream to DocDrew

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I think the method I actually saw was something like Big 10 alternates and/or RedZone HD switching to 480i color bars. Because its stationary video with no audio, it uses less bps than even music choice. That way when 4 Big Ten Alternates go from say 10 mbps down to maybe 160 kbps due to the stationary colorbars, room is made for something like RedZone HD to go to 1080i .

Also what about using regroomers to more efficiently allocate QAM's? For example the ESPN PPV is delivered from ESPN in a package that is only 6 SD channels. Run that through a re-groomer and you can put even more on that QAM rather than wasting half a QAM.
BiggA
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join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

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Yup. They should think a little harder about how they are doing things...

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

Came across this. »www.homeboxoffice.com/to ··· 0916.pdf