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4 edits | reply to andyross
Re: [HD] FIOS Moving to MPEG-4 HD said by andyross:The Motorola DCX series, and I'd assume any box released within the past year or two, supports MPEG4 natively in hardware. It may be possible to add MPEG4 to older boxes, but it might require running in software, which may be too much for most. Maybe a non-DVR DCH could do it, but the extra overhead of DVR or older models would probably choke it.
Yes as I mentioned a few posts back in this thread, anything Comcast calls an "RNG" decodes MPEG4 (this includes the Moto DCX series). And the new (not being used by Comcast just yet) HD DTAs do too.
»Re: [HD] FIOS Moving to MPEG-4 HD
And no, there is no way to add it the older boxes, the boxes have very limited CPU resources as-is, they rely on dedicated video decoding silicon. So they're stuck the way they are.
That's why Comcast made the "RNG" specifications to tell their cable box vendors (Cisco, Motorola and Pace) what minimum specs for future proofing must be. All the boxes that are labeled RNG by Comcast will eventually get the X1 Guide software ported over to them. | |
4 edits | reply to Streetlight
said by Streetlight:It seems from reading this thread that a System on a Chip (SoC) is required or at least the best way to accomplish this. Do the new X1 boxes have this built in? They're apparently testing them here in Colorado Springs, but I certainly haven't been approached. It also seems CC is handing them out to folks who have triple play, and I just have Cable TV and HSI.
FYI: SoC is a term for a highly integrated processing solution, it combines what in years past would be separate chips to make a system (in this case a cable box). Hence the term system on a chip.
For example: the set-top box oriented SoC solutions from Broadcom integrate: a low power general purpose CPU, video and audio processing/decoding, a SATA interface for a hard drive (DVR), and all common audio/video output circuitry (HDMI, component, composite, stereo audio), and more.
And yes the X1 DVR has state-of-the-art stuff under the hood.
Comcast isn't deploying anything new that does not decode MPEG4. All the semiconductor companies making the chips (SoC) that power the cable boxes all have MPEG4 decoding built-in now. | | |
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| reply to GTFan
said by GTFan:Comcast just freed up a ton of bandwidth by retiring the analog channels, so they probably don't feel the need to pay for upgrading all those 64xx DVRs etc. still out there. I'm sure they'll move to mpeg4 eventually but don't think they're feeling a crunch now.
I'm more afraid that Comcast will go the switched digital video route rather then go the MPEG4 route. Would be interesting if they go the route of raising the frequencies from the 700MHz range to the 2GHz range.
I'd love to find out if TiVo and other customer owned equipment can support this MPEG4 format. | |
Reviews:
 ·Comcast
2 edits | reply to Streetlight
I agree that the Cisco and Motorola RNG and DCX set top equipment support MPEG4 codec. I'm curious if TiVo supports MPEG4 as well and if it is capable of supporting the full range of its HD feed or if it’s limited. Also wondering why H264 isn't being used.
I have no problem with older equipment being mandatorily replaced to support MPEG4; after all it's the provider's property so for a customer it's a simple swap without having to purchase anything. Hooray for a free upgrade. | |
| reply to LeeDeMarco
cox is doing both mpeg 4 and going to be doing SDV in my area, so why couldn't comcast?
Yes the Tivo premiere and newer support mpeg 4. | |
andyrossPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-04
Schaumburg, IL | reply to LeeDeMarco
said by LeeDeMarco :I'm more afraid that Comcast will go the switched digital video route rather then go the MPEG4 route. Would be interesting if they go the route of raising the frequencies from the 700MHz range to the 2GHz range. 2GHz would be a real stretch. Most currently produced equipment supports up to 1GHz, although I don't think many areas really support that yet. Generally, the 850MHz-1GHz seems to be mainly used for in-home MoCa stuff, with a filter used to block it from leaking back into the system. | |
 DrDrewSo that others may surf.
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:8 | reply to LeeDeMarco
Apparently only Tivo Series 4 support MPEG4 in the U.S. Everything earlies is SOL: »List of CableCARD equipment MPEG-4 support status
None of the Tivos support 2 Ghz, nor do any of the cable boxes, modems, splitters, amplifiers, etc. There's ZERO chance Comcast would go to 2 Ghz of spectrum, since nothing they have supports it.
Why the reluctance for Comcast to use SDV? TWC, Cox, and Charter all use it to great benefit. More Comcast gear supports SDV, than MPEG4...
--
Two is one, one is none. If it's important, back it up... Somethimes 99.999% availability isn't even good enough. | |
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
| reply to andyross
said by andyross:said by LeeDeMarco :I'm more afraid that Comcast will go the switched digital video route rather then go the MPEG4 route. Would be interesting if they go the route of raising the frequencies from the 700MHz range to the 2GHz range. 2GHz would be a real stretch. Most currently produced equipment supports up to 1GHz, although I don't think many areas really support that yet. Generally, the 850MHz-1GHz seems to be mainly used for in-home MoCa stuff, with a filter used to block it from leaking back into the system. moca uses bandwidth near the 1.5GHz range not in between 860MHz to 1GHz which is reserved for future use as TV or internet channels on cable. | |
DrDrewSo that others may surf.
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:8 | MOCA bands A, B, and C use frequencies between 850 and 1000 MHz. MOCA band D is above 1000 MHz.
»www.mocalliance.org/ANGA/files/M···MoCA.pdf | |
Reviews:
·Comcast
1 edit | reply to ajwees41
SDV is the thorn in everyone's backside. It's aggravating, well loathed, and unnecessary. It's literally one of the reasons why I'll only live in a Comcast serviced area.
Anyway I brought the question up about MPEG4 and the Premiere because of this thread I came across with people having issues with Cox. »www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sh···t=458185 | |
BiggA
join:2005-11-23
EARTH Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to LeeDeMarco
1GHZ is the max for cable systems. DirecTV uses frequencies up to 2200mhz in the house, but that's over a much shorter run.
Comcast doesn't seem to like SDV, and given their openness to CableCard (once they get their almost-box-fee of course), I doubt that would be their first option. MPEG-4 makes the most sense, as you can swap out a small proportion of boxes over a phase-in period, and you get huge gains without splitting nodes, which SDV depends on. However, they would need very few tuning adapters, as once the whole TiVo-VOD thing finishes rolling out, all those boxes could also control SDV through software with minor software changes, as opposed to through the TAs.
I don't think they want to go over 860, and I have a suspicion it has to do with inside wiring. The higher you push the frequencies, the more issues you have. For example, at my parents' house, everything was working great until they added more HDs, and one of the newer ones, SNY, was dropping out a lot, which I *think* was because it was up near 860, so it was seeing higher loss. An amp fixed it. The farther up you push, the more loss you get, and more you need amps and the more you need to re-do wiring.
That leaves MPEG-4, which would work well, especially given their focus on VOD, as if they leverage it 5:3 (although knowing them they would go 6:3), they not only get more linear channels, but they get more VOD capacity on fewer QAM's, which helps their goals with XOD, which is a major focus for them on the video side.
The TiVo Series 3 support MPEG-4, but due to software limitations, the US model DOES NOT work with MPEG-4 through CableCard, so you're SOL on Verizon. The Premiere works with MPEG-4 through CableCard.
You can only run up to 860 for linear video, but you can put VOD for company-owned boxes (i.e. most of them), and DOCSIS 3 between 860 and 1000, so if you're smart, you put most of your VOD and DOCSIS up there to free up room for other stuff below 860.
MPEG-4 is a much more logical step than SDV. You can keep the simplicity of a linear system for linear channels, and reap the benefits of better quality AND more capacity. | |
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
| said by BiggA:1GHZ is the max for cable systems. DirecTV uses frequencies up to 2200mhz in the house, but that's over a much shorter run.
Comcast doesn't seem to like SDV, and given their openness to CableCard (once they get their almost-box-fee of course), I doubt that would be their first option. MPEG-4 makes the most sense, as you can swap out a small proportion of boxes over a phase-in period, and you get huge gains without splitting nodes, which SDV depends on. However, they would need very few tuning adapters, as once the whole TiVo-VOD thing finishes rolling out, all those boxes could also control SDV through software with minor software changes, as opposed to through the TAs.
I don't think they want to go over 860, and I have a suspicion it has to do with inside wiring. The higher you push the frequencies, the more issues you have. For example, at my parents' house, everything was working great until they added more HDs, and one of the newer ones, SNY, was dropping out a lot, which I *think* was because it was up near 860, so it was seeing higher loss. An amp fixed it. The farther up you push, the more loss you get, and more you need amps and the more you need to re-do wiring.
That leaves MPEG-4, which would work well, especially given their focus on VOD, as if they leverage it 5:3 (although knowing them they would go 6:3), they not only get more linear channels, but they get more VOD capacity on fewer QAM's, which helps their goals with XOD, which is a major focus for them on the video side.
The TiVo Series 3 support MPEG-4, but due to software limitations, the US model DOES NOT work with MPEG-4 through CableCard, so you're SOL on Verizon. The Premiere works with MPEG-4 through CableCard.
You can only run up to 860 for linear video, but you can put VOD for company-owned boxes (i.e. most of them), and DOCSIS 3 between 860 and 1000, so if you're smart, you put most of your VOD and DOCSIS up there to free up room for other stuff below 860.
MPEG-4 is a much more logical step than SDV. You can keep the simplicity of a linear system for linear channels, and reap the benefits of better quality AND more capacity.
actually the only people that are affected by SDV are the people with third party devices and a small few of them complain about the adapters and it is a tivo issue and all of the other tuners work fine with it. Also SDV is a very good system once it is fully implemented and all of the kinks are worked out. Also nodes do have to have smaller service groups but with SDV I have heard that more than one node shares a pool of QAMs that is dedicated to SDV so there is not a 1:1 ratio of SDV QAM to node like there is for DOCSIS. Also TWC uses MPEG4 on some channels using SDV: ESPN3D, GAME 1-9 HD, and TEAM 1-9 HD in markets that carry the channels except that GAME 1-2 HD and TEAM HD are not MPEG4 in markets that do not carry all TEAM/GAME HD channels.
Right now TWC is dedicating 20 to 24 SDV QAMs per service group depending on system in most cases some areas are still at 16 QAMs per service group but they are going to 20 or 24 QAMs for SDV per service group as TWC axes analogs. TWC NYC and parts of LA have lower amounts of SDV QAMs due to no expanded basic analogs. | |
1 edit | reply to Mike Wolf
I think SDV is a good idea, but it has to be carefully done. First question is, do the tuning adapters support more than 2 streams at the same time? Do they work with Ceton or Silicon Dust cable card powered media center PC?
What about doing HD-DTA's? Do HD-DTA's support the request for channel messages back to the headend? I don't think they are two-way and thats part of the reason why they are so much cheaper.
So say you issue HD-DTA's and you want to offer your standard lineup ch 2-100 but with an HD-DTA you decide to auto-map the HD version of all available HD channels in that 2-100 range to make things easier for the grannies, small children, housewives and idiots. Well you wouldn't be able to put those 90 or so HD's in SDV if the HD-DTA doesn't support it. Or you couldn't put the SD version of those in SDV because the SD-DTA's wouldn't support it.
IMO SDV would work great for premiums like multi screens of HD for HBO, Max, Showtime, TMC, Starz, Encore, etc... It would work good for sports packages in 100% HD like MLB, NHL, NFL Sunday Ticket (if DirecTV ever loses exclusivity on it). It would work well for multiple language tiers like Spanish, Russian, Asian, European, etc... You give a reason for customers to upgrade to a box that can do MPEG4, 1GHz, SDV. Your majority who doesn't subscribe to ethnic packages, premiums or sports packages won't miss a beat.
I'm not sure what Blue Ridge Cable in Northeast PA runs, but the diagnostics for some of those secondary+ premium's listed 903 MHz in the Passport echo diagnostic channel. Though hub id 18 where I was did not have them fully setup whereas in Ephrata PA, those channels are all configured.
I would use 870-1GHz for DOCSIS, VOD and ethnic packages. Perhaps run DOCSIS on RF ch 135-142 so you still have one channel for 2.0 modems that can't go over 864 MHz. That would be simular to bandwidth FIOS offers since they have 870MHz of plant off the ONT but no bandwidth on that 870 MHz swath is wasted for the purpose of "DOCSIS" or VOD.
Or maybe just run business class internet in the 870-1GHz range. MetroE, virtual private lines, and all of that good stuff. Businesses get first class attention so the installers would be sure to check line quality at those frequencies for the people paying for SLA's. | |
| reply to motorola870
said by motorola870:actually the only people that are affected by SDV are the people with third party devices and a small few of them complain about the adapters and it is a tivo issue and all of the other tuners work fine with it. Wrong - most of the problems with SDV on third-party tuners are due to crappy TA firmware, not Tivo, Ceton, or SiliconDust tuner implementations. The FCC had to beat on the MSOs to get them to allow up to 6 streams with the TAs to match CableCard, frex.
Doesn't matter anyway, Comcast is not going to do SDV - the real answer is IPTV and mpeg4 in future anyway, not a bandaid like SDV. There's no need to spend the money for a halfway measure. | |
Reviews:
·Comcast
| said by GTFan:said by motorola870:actually the only people that are affected by SDV are the people with third party devices and a small few of them complain about the adapters and it is a tivo issue and all of the other tuners work fine with it. Wrong - most of the problems with SDV on third-party tuners are due to crappy TA firmware, not Tivo, Ceton, or SiliconDust tuner implementations. The FCC had to beat on the MSOs to get them to allow up to 6 streams with the TAs to match CableCard, frex. Doesn't matter anyway, Comcast is not going to do SDV - the real answer is IPTV and mpeg4 in future anyway, not a bandaid like SDV. There's no need to spend the money for a halfway measure. The Cisco PSK908 CableCARD supports up to 8 streams. Don't know when or if a MSO will ever let it see the light of implementation.
--
I'm always up for a good chat and helping with VoIP testing so my contact info is below.
Gigaset.net: Michael Wolf
Callcentric: 17772288600
SIP URI: sip:226976325024#9@sip.gigaset.net and sip:17772288600@in.callcentric.com
Skype: MikeWolf051 | |
BiggA
join:2005-11-23
EARTH Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to motorola870
The support for SDV is sort of a nightmare, and it requires node splitting to be effective. It's a poor choice when they could use MPEG-4 instead, which is pretty much standard on all video except for cable. If they have to, they could do SDV, but that should be after everything is MPEG-4.
Running SDV on a system with analog is idiotic. Analog is an obvious thing to get rid of. I'd say it makes sense, in order to:
1. Analog reclamation
2. MPEG-4
3. 1 GHZ
4. SDV
The ultimate would be all of those, although with even an 860mhz system with all MPEG-4 HDs, I'm not sure you'd need SDV to carry more HD than pretty much any of the competitors.
I don't think DTAs are made to handle higher-up channels, just expanded basic. DTA are an idiotic technology, as they aren't DVRs, and thus are pretty worthless.
The advantage you do get out of SDV is that you have an unlimited channel capacity if your nodes are small enough...
Running DOCSIS with one channel below 860 makes sense. | |
Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to motorola870
If there was a way to use SDV without it causing channels to not be available at any given time, and not cause a prompt to appear on screen to "press any button to continue watching" then maybe it would have a future, but till then most are going to be against it. I agree with BiggA that SDV should be the last resort when there is no other choice and all technological options both present and future have been utilized. | |
| reply to BiggA
What is the status of the various TiVo series supporting 1GHz and above frequencies? | |
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
| reply to BiggA
said by BiggA:The support for SDV is sort of a nightmare, and it requires node splitting to be effective. It's a poor choice when they could use MPEG-4 instead, which is pretty much standard on all video except for cable. If they have to, they could do SDV, but that should be after everything is MPEG-4.
Running SDV on a system with analog is idiotic. Analog is an obvious thing to get rid of. I'd say it makes sense, in order to:
1. Analog reclamation
2. MPEG-4
3. 1 GHZ
4. SDV
The ultimate would be all of those, although with even an 860mhz system with all MPEG-4 HDs, I'm not sure you'd need SDV to carry more HD than pretty much any of the competitors.
I don't think DTAs are made to handle higher-up channels, just expanded basic. DTA are an idiotic technology, as they aren't DVRs, and thus are pretty worthless.
The advantage you do get out of SDV is that you have an unlimited channel capacity if your nodes are small enough...
Running DOCSIS with one channel below 860 makes sense.
Time Warner Cable is actually actively deploying HD-DTAs in the field in a few system and they are slowly removing analogs at the same time in areas that have SDV.
The system I am on has:
144 HD channels
60 analogs soon to 59 analogs when a channel that says to get this channel please get an digital adapter or cable box is taken down.
860MHz of bandwidth
6 DOCSIS channels soon to be 8 DOCSIS channels
24 QAMs for SDV
8 VOD QAMs
The TWC system I am has removed these analogs while having SDV deployed as well:
CSPAN
CSPAN 2
CSPAN 3
TXCN
EWTN
WGN America
G4
Government Access
Public Access
Educational Access 1
Educational Access 2
Educational Access 3
and they removed these analogs before SDV was implemented:
CMT
truTV
Oxygen
Daystar
Style
ABC family
I rarely have any problems with SDV as we have enough QAMs dedicated to SDV to not have tuning problems. | |
BiggA
join:2005-11-23
EARTH | reply to Mike Wolf
Apparently all but a few of the oldest S3s work up to 1ghz. Cable ends at 1ghz, there is nothing that works with higher frequencies. | |
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