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mikedz4

join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV
reply to JeepMatt

Re: [HD] FIOS Moving to MPEG-4 HD

they'll just compress the hd even more unless they haven't encrypted all analog yet.


GTFan

join:2004-12-03

Comcast just freed up a ton of bandwidth by retiring the analog channels, so they probably don't feel the need to pay for upgrading all those 64xx DVRs etc. still out there. I'm sure they'll move to mpeg4 eventually but don't think they're feeling a crunch now.



LeeDeMarco

@comcast.net

said by GTFan:

Comcast just freed up a ton of bandwidth by retiring the analog channels, so they probably don't feel the need to pay for upgrading all those 64xx DVRs etc. still out there. I'm sure they'll move to mpeg4 eventually but don't think they're feeling a crunch now.

I'm more afraid that Comcast will go the switched digital video route rather then go the MPEG4 route. Would be interesting if they go the route of raising the frequencies from the 700MHz range to the 2GHz range.

I'd love to find out if TiVo and other customer owned equipment can support this MPEG4 format.

ajwees41
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Omaha, NE

cox is doing both mpeg 4 and going to be doing SDV in my area, so why couldn't comcast?

Yes the Tivo premiere and newer support mpeg 4.


andyross
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-04
Schaumburg, IL
reply to LeeDeMarco

said by LeeDeMarco :

I'm more afraid that Comcast will go the switched digital video route rather then go the MPEG4 route. Would be interesting if they go the route of raising the frequencies from the 700MHz range to the 2GHz range.

2GHz would be a real stretch. Most currently produced equipment supports up to 1GHz, although I don't think many areas really support that yet. Generally, the 850MHz-1GHz seems to be mainly used for in-home MoCa stuff, with a filter used to block it from leaking back into the system.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15
reply to LeeDeMarco

Apparently only Tivo Series 4 support MPEG4 in the U.S. Everything earlies is SOL: »List of CableCARD equipment MPEG-4 support status

None of the Tivos support 2 Ghz, nor do any of the cable boxes, modems, splitters, amplifiers, etc. There's ZERO chance Comcast would go to 2 Ghz of spectrum, since nothing they have supports it.

Why the reluctance for Comcast to use SDV? TWC, Cox, and Charter all use it to great benefit. More Comcast gear supports SDV, than MPEG4...
--
Two is one, one is none. If it's important, back it up... Somethimes 99.999% availability isn't even good enough.



motorola870

join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX
kudos:3
reply to andyross

said by andyross:

said by LeeDeMarco :

I'm more afraid that Comcast will go the switched digital video route rather then go the MPEG4 route. Would be interesting if they go the route of raising the frequencies from the 700MHz range to the 2GHz range.

2GHz would be a real stretch. Most currently produced equipment supports up to 1GHz, although I don't think many areas really support that yet. Generally, the 850MHz-1GHz seems to be mainly used for in-home MoCa stuff, with a filter used to block it from leaking back into the system.

moca uses bandwidth near the 1.5GHz range not in between 860MHz to 1GHz which is reserved for future use as TV or internet channels on cable.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15

MOCA bands A, B, and C use frequencies between 850 and 1000 MHz. MOCA band D is above 1000 MHz.

»www.mocalliance.org/ANGA/files/M···MoCA.pdf



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to ajwees41

SDV is the thorn in everyone's backside. It's aggravating, well loathed, and unnecessary. It's literally one of the reasons why I'll only live in a Comcast serviced area.
Anyway I brought the question up about MPEG4 and the Premiere because of this thread I came across with people having issues with Cox. »www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sh···t=458185


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to LeeDeMarco

1GHZ is the max for cable systems. DirecTV uses frequencies up to 2200mhz in the house, but that's over a much shorter run.

Comcast doesn't seem to like SDV, and given their openness to CableCard (once they get their almost-box-fee of course), I doubt that would be their first option. MPEG-4 makes the most sense, as you can swap out a small proportion of boxes over a phase-in period, and you get huge gains without splitting nodes, which SDV depends on. However, they would need very few tuning adapters, as once the whole TiVo-VOD thing finishes rolling out, all those boxes could also control SDV through software with minor software changes, as opposed to through the TAs.

I don't think they want to go over 860, and I have a suspicion it has to do with inside wiring. The higher you push the frequencies, the more issues you have. For example, at my parents' house, everything was working great until they added more HDs, and one of the newer ones, SNY, was dropping out a lot, which I *think* was because it was up near 860, so it was seeing higher loss. An amp fixed it. The farther up you push, the more loss you get, and more you need amps and the more you need to re-do wiring.

That leaves MPEG-4, which would work well, especially given their focus on VOD, as if they leverage it 5:3 (although knowing them they would go 6:3), they not only get more linear channels, but they get more VOD capacity on fewer QAM's, which helps their goals with XOD, which is a major focus for them on the video side.

The TiVo Series 3 support MPEG-4, but due to software limitations, the US model DOES NOT work with MPEG-4 through CableCard, so you're SOL on Verizon. The Premiere works with MPEG-4 through CableCard.

You can only run up to 860 for linear video, but you can put VOD for company-owned boxes (i.e. most of them), and DOCSIS 3 between 860 and 1000, so if you're smart, you put most of your VOD and DOCSIS up there to free up room for other stuff below 860.

MPEG-4 is a much more logical step than SDV. You can keep the simplicity of a linear system for linear channels, and reap the benefits of better quality AND more capacity.



motorola870

join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX
kudos:3

said by BiggA:

1GHZ is the max for cable systems. DirecTV uses frequencies up to 2200mhz in the house, but that's over a much shorter run.

Comcast doesn't seem to like SDV, and given their openness to CableCard (once they get their almost-box-fee of course), I doubt that would be their first option. MPEG-4 makes the most sense, as you can swap out a small proportion of boxes over a phase-in period, and you get huge gains without splitting nodes, which SDV depends on. However, they would need very few tuning adapters, as once the whole TiVo-VOD thing finishes rolling out, all those boxes could also control SDV through software with minor software changes, as opposed to through the TAs.

I don't think they want to go over 860, and I have a suspicion it has to do with inside wiring. The higher you push the frequencies, the more issues you have. For example, at my parents' house, everything was working great until they added more HDs, and one of the newer ones, SNY, was dropping out a lot, which I *think* was because it was up near 860, so it was seeing higher loss. An amp fixed it. The farther up you push, the more loss you get, and more you need amps and the more you need to re-do wiring.

That leaves MPEG-4, which would work well, especially given their focus on VOD, as if they leverage it 5:3 (although knowing them they would go 6:3), they not only get more linear channels, but they get more VOD capacity on fewer QAM's, which helps their goals with XOD, which is a major focus for them on the video side.

The TiVo Series 3 support MPEG-4, but due to software limitations, the US model DOES NOT work with MPEG-4 through CableCard, so you're SOL on Verizon. The Premiere works with MPEG-4 through CableCard.

You can only run up to 860 for linear video, but you can put VOD for company-owned boxes (i.e. most of them), and DOCSIS 3 between 860 and 1000, so if you're smart, you put most of your VOD and DOCSIS up there to free up room for other stuff below 860.

MPEG-4 is a much more logical step than SDV. You can keep the simplicity of a linear system for linear channels, and reap the benefits of better quality AND more capacity.

actually the only people that are affected by SDV are the people with third party devices and a small few of them complain about the adapters and it is a tivo issue and all of the other tuners work fine with it. Also SDV is a very good system once it is fully implemented and all of the kinks are worked out. Also nodes do have to have smaller service groups but with SDV I have heard that more than one node shares a pool of QAMs that is dedicated to SDV so there is not a 1:1 ratio of SDV QAM to node like there is for DOCSIS. Also TWC uses MPEG4 on some channels using SDV: ESPN3D, GAME 1-9 HD, and TEAM 1-9 HD in markets that carry the channels except that GAME 1-2 HD and TEAM HD are not MPEG4 in markets that do not carry all TEAM/GAME HD channels.

Right now TWC is dedicating 20 to 24 SDV QAMs per service group depending on system in most cases some areas are still at 16 QAMs per service group but they are going to 20 or 24 QAMs for SDV per service group as TWC axes analogs. TWC NYC and parts of LA have lower amounts of SDV QAMs due to no expanded basic analogs.


cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to Mike Wolf

I think SDV is a good idea, but it has to be carefully done. First question is, do the tuning adapters support more than 2 streams at the same time? Do they work with Ceton or Silicon Dust cable card powered media center PC?

What about doing HD-DTA's? Do HD-DTA's support the request for channel messages back to the headend? I don't think they are two-way and thats part of the reason why they are so much cheaper.

So say you issue HD-DTA's and you want to offer your standard lineup ch 2-100 but with an HD-DTA you decide to auto-map the HD version of all available HD channels in that 2-100 range to make things easier for the grannies, small children, housewives and idiots. Well you wouldn't be able to put those 90 or so HD's in SDV if the HD-DTA doesn't support it. Or you couldn't put the SD version of those in SDV because the SD-DTA's wouldn't support it.

IMO SDV would work great for premiums like multi screens of HD for HBO, Max, Showtime, TMC, Starz, Encore, etc... It would work good for sports packages in 100% HD like MLB, NHL, NFL Sunday Ticket (if DirecTV ever loses exclusivity on it). It would work well for multiple language tiers like Spanish, Russian, Asian, European, etc... You give a reason for customers to upgrade to a box that can do MPEG4, 1GHz, SDV. Your majority who doesn't subscribe to ethnic packages, premiums or sports packages won't miss a beat.

I'm not sure what Blue Ridge Cable in Northeast PA runs, but the diagnostics for some of those secondary+ premium's listed 903 MHz in the Passport echo diagnostic channel. Though hub id 18 where I was did not have them fully setup whereas in Ephrata PA, those channels are all configured.

I would use 870-1GHz for DOCSIS, VOD and ethnic packages. Perhaps run DOCSIS on RF ch 135-142 so you still have one channel for 2.0 modems that can't go over 864 MHz. That would be simular to bandwidth FIOS offers since they have 870MHz of plant off the ONT but no bandwidth on that 870 MHz swath is wasted for the purpose of "DOCSIS" or VOD.

Or maybe just run business class internet in the 870-1GHz range. MetroE, virtual private lines, and all of that good stuff. Businesses get first class attention so the installers would be sure to check line quality at those frequencies for the people paying for SLA's.


GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to motorola870

said by motorola870:

actually the only people that are affected by SDV are the people with third party devices and a small few of them complain about the adapters and it is a tivo issue and all of the other tuners work fine with it.

Wrong - most of the problems with SDV on third-party tuners are due to crappy TA firmware, not Tivo, Ceton, or SiliconDust tuner implementations. The FCC had to beat on the MSOs to get them to allow up to 6 streams with the TAs to match CableCard, frex.

Doesn't matter anyway, Comcast is not going to do SDV - the real answer is IPTV and mpeg4 in future anyway, not a bandaid like SDV. There's no need to spend the money for a halfway measure.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

said by GTFan:

said by motorola870:

actually the only people that are affected by SDV are the people with third party devices and a small few of them complain about the adapters and it is a tivo issue and all of the other tuners work fine with it.

Wrong - most of the problems with SDV on third-party tuners are due to crappy TA firmware, not Tivo, Ceton, or SiliconDust tuner implementations. The FCC had to beat on the MSOs to get them to allow up to 6 streams with the TAs to match CableCard, frex.

Doesn't matter anyway, Comcast is not going to do SDV - the real answer is IPTV and mpeg4 in future anyway, not a bandaid like SDV. There's no need to spend the money for a halfway measure.

The Cisco PSK908 CableCARD supports up to 8 streams. Don't know when or if a MSO will ever let it see the light of implementation.
--
I'm always up for a good chat and helping with VoIP testing so my contact info is below.
Gigaset.net: Michael Wolf
Callcentric: 17772288600
SIP URI: sip:226976325024#9@sip.gigaset.net and sip:17772288600@in.callcentric.com
Skype: MikeWolf051

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to motorola870

The support for SDV is sort of a nightmare, and it requires node splitting to be effective. It's a poor choice when they could use MPEG-4 instead, which is pretty much standard on all video except for cable. If they have to, they could do SDV, but that should be after everything is MPEG-4.

Running SDV on a system with analog is idiotic. Analog is an obvious thing to get rid of. I'd say it makes sense, in order to:

1. Analog reclamation
2. MPEG-4
3. 1 GHZ
4. SDV

The ultimate would be all of those, although with even an 860mhz system with all MPEG-4 HDs, I'm not sure you'd need SDV to carry more HD than pretty much any of the competitors.

I don't think DTAs are made to handle higher-up channels, just expanded basic. DTA are an idiotic technology, as they aren't DVRs, and thus are pretty worthless.

The advantage you do get out of SDV is that you have an unlimited channel capacity if your nodes are small enough...

Running DOCSIS with one channel below 860 makes sense.



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3
reply to motorola870

If there was a way to use SDV without it causing channels to not be available at any given time, and not cause a prompt to appear on screen to "press any button to continue watching" then maybe it would have a future, but till then most are going to be against it. I agree with BiggA that SDV should be the last resort when there is no other choice and all technological options both present and future have been utilized.



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3
reply to BiggA

What is the status of the various TiVo series supporting 1GHz and above frequencies?



motorola870

join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX
kudos:3
reply to BiggA

said by BiggA:

The support for SDV is sort of a nightmare, and it requires node splitting to be effective. It's a poor choice when they could use MPEG-4 instead, which is pretty much standard on all video except for cable. If they have to, they could do SDV, but that should be after everything is MPEG-4.

Running SDV on a system with analog is idiotic. Analog is an obvious thing to get rid of. I'd say it makes sense, in order to:

1. Analog reclamation
2. MPEG-4
3. 1 GHZ
4. SDV

The ultimate would be all of those, although with even an 860mhz system with all MPEG-4 HDs, I'm not sure you'd need SDV to carry more HD than pretty much any of the competitors.

I don't think DTAs are made to handle higher-up channels, just expanded basic. DTA are an idiotic technology, as they aren't DVRs, and thus are pretty worthless.

The advantage you do get out of SDV is that you have an unlimited channel capacity if your nodes are small enough...

Running DOCSIS with one channel below 860 makes sense.

Time Warner Cable is actually actively deploying HD-DTAs in the field in a few system and they are slowly removing analogs at the same time in areas that have SDV.

The system I am on has:

144 HD channels
60 analogs soon to 59 analogs when a channel that says to get this channel please get an digital adapter or cable box is taken down.
860MHz of bandwidth
6 DOCSIS channels soon to be 8 DOCSIS channels
24 QAMs for SDV
8 VOD QAMs

The TWC system I am has removed these analogs while having SDV deployed as well:
CSPAN
CSPAN 2
CSPAN 3
TXCN
EWTN
WGN America
G4
Government Access
Public Access
Educational Access 1
Educational Access 2
Educational Access 3

and they removed these analogs before SDV was implemented:
CMT
truTV
Oxygen
Daystar
Style
ABC family

I rarely have any problems with SDV as we have enough QAMs dedicated to SDV to not have tuning problems.

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to Mike Wolf

Apparently all but a few of the oldest S3s work up to 1ghz. Cable ends at 1ghz, there is nothing that works with higher frequencies.


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to motorola870

I'm surprised that TWC has anything in analog, I thought they were the first to dump analog completely? Any system with analogs is living in the past, even Comcast's incredibly slow upgrade process has finally gotten rid of analogs over their entire system. Analog makes no sense: you can put 3 HD's (I wish 2...) on for every analog you remove, and if you move to MPEG-4, now you're looking at probably 5 HD's.


Joe12345678

join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL
reply to cypherstream

I think rogers cable and other ontario uses SDV and they have the super sports with up to 23 HD channels for stuff like NHL CI, NFL ST and others.

Shaw cable uses MPEG 4 for NHL CI HD (up to 15 HD feeds) and NFL ST HD (up to 15 Feeds) and other channels??

Now at the very lest can comcast do a limited SDV where they trun off VOD slots for part time stuff like RSN overflows, red zone, goal line / espn buzzer beater, game 1-9 HD, team 1-9 HD, and others.

Also maybe down the road iN DEMAND can have the very part time HD PPV 2 come back also maybe add TEAM 10 HD and GAME 10-14 HD.

ESPN Game Plan HD Full Court HD soon?

att-uverse has 10 HD channels for NBA LP. Directv has DUAL HD feeds for most NBA, NHL, and MLB games.

Now in the past comcast talked about wanting NFL ST (I think the last time was 2-3 years ago when they talked about swapping NFL ST for CSN Philly) on directv

and now maybe in 2015 directv may not be the only place to get NFL ST in the USA.


Joe12345678

join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL
reply to Mike Wolf

Now lets say comcast or others wants to make a move into the bar scene that directv has lock on due to NFL ST and to a lesser part most NBA, NHL and MLB games in HD.

can a sdv system drive a bar useing say 8-15+ part time lower use channels? will others on the same node find them self's unable to use VOD for prime sports time?

On directv the NHL, NBA, MLB and MLS feeds are mostly RSN remaps that are up 24/7 + the few part time Rsn over flows and sub feeds.

But to fit in NFL ST + other part time RSN needs they need to shut down most of the PPV movie HD channels. But then again they have like 34 HD ppv channels that is used to fill part time needs and when they are not needed for part time stuff they run PPV movies on them.



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

Joe, the problem is , who exactly determines what channels are "part time lower use channels" What I watch on television all the time is different then what someone else may watch on television all the time.


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

Whatever has terrible ratings. There's data out there on what people don't watch.



motorola870

join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX
kudos:3
reply to Mike Wolf

said by Mike Wolf:

Joe, the problem is , who exactly determines what channels are "part time lower use channels" What I watch on television all the time is different then what someone else may watch on television all the time.

it is all software based they poll the boxes and overall the channels that have the least viewing will be switched and if the cable company needs room to add more SDV channels they move more channels that are least viewed.

The system I am on switches everything except for:

2-99 digital simulcast
local HD/sub channels
music choice
National Geographic
We TV
LMN
PBS Kids Sprout
Boomerang
AMC
Hallmark
OWN
Youtoo TV
ZEE TV
TV Asia
Cartoon Network SAP
Mun 2
Tr3s
HBO
Showtime
Cinemax
Starz
The Movie Channel
Big 12 PPV
FSN+
Shop NBC
GAC
TEN PPV
Playboy Premium
Penthouse PPV
Indemand 1
Indemand 2
HDPPV
Discovery Channel HD
TNT HD
ESPN HD
ESPN 2 HD
HBO HD
Showtime HD


motorola870

join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX
kudos:3
reply to Joe12345678

said by Joe12345678:

Now lets say comcast or others wants to make a move into the bar scene that directv has lock on due to NFL ST and to a lesser part most NBA, NHL and MLB games in HD.

can a sdv system drive a bar useing say 8-15+ part time lower use channels? will others on the same node find them self's unable to use VOD for prime sports time?

On directv the NHL, NBA, MLB and MLS feeds are mostly RSN remaps that are up 24/7 + the few part time Rsn over flows and sub feeds.

But to fit in NFL ST + other part time RSN needs they need to shut down most of the PPV movie HD channels. But then again they have like 34 HD ppv channels that is used to fill part time needs and when they are not needed for part time stuff they run PPV movies on them.

VOD and SDV are two different things and TWC in most systems has two different separate pools of QAMs for SDV and VOD they do not affect each other in most cases there are a very small amount of TWC systems where VOD and SDV share QAM carriers but it is not like that in most systems.

Also the max loading TWC does for any SDV QAM is:

3 HD channels
2 HD channels + 2 or 3 SD channels
1 HD channel + 6 SD channels
10 SD channels


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3
reply to BiggA

said by BiggA:

Whatever has terrible ratings. There's data out there on what people don't watch.

Yeah that's why a boat load of popular shows get cancelled every year...that's a flawed method.

Joe12345678

join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL
reply to Mike Wolf

Talking about part time sports feeds that are not 24/7 channels. Better to switch them then to fill them with looping help videos or a logo screen when off air.


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to Mike Wolf

Or they could use actual data from the boxes of what people are watching...


The Q

join:2008-06-26
Collegeville, PA
reply to Mike Wolf

said by Mike Wolf:

said by BiggA:

Whatever has terrible ratings. There's data out there on what people don't watch.

Yeah that's why a boat load of popular shows get cancelled every year...that's a flawed method.

shows that get good ratings get more advertising dollars and don't get cancelled.

Shows that aren't watched or that cost more to produce than what they bring in in ad revenue get cancelled. That is the current business of television.

The most popular shows usually don't get cancelled.