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geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Usage - overages

said by TSI Marc:

hum. that would mean that there's no reason to take anything other than the lowest usage package...

Then make it the difference X 125%? Make them think twice before signing up for 300GB. So if you were at 45/4, the difference would be $56.25. That 25% can be quite costly...

I guess that goes back to your following though.

said by TSI Marc:

I'm more leaning towards:

"The max you would pay is $X more than the unlimited tier."

things at this point.



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

hum. that would mean that there's no reason to take anything other than the lowest usage package...

Final thought: a lot of guys have been suggesting a tier/price between 300GB and Unlimited. You could incorporate the automatic usage blocks AND the Unlimited plus $20 for 100GB over and up. Got to have an incentive for folks to play by the rules.

Straight up Unlimited plus $20 may unfairly penalize a user who simply downloads 5 or 10GB too much. Although that's a judgement call.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to geokilla

said by geokilla:

said by TSI Marc:

hum. that would mean that there's no reason to take anything other than the lowest usage package...

Then make it the difference X 125%? Make them think twice before signing up for 300GB. So if you were at 45/4, the difference would be $56.25. That 25% can be quite costly...

I guess that goes back to your following though.

said by TSI Marc:

I'm more leaning towards:

"The max you would pay is $X more than the unlimited tier."

things at this point.

yeah exactly.. no matter how you try to simplify it.. you always end up with "oh and there's also a 25% additional hit"

or something you have to add to make it add up.

thinking that it's complicated. there's no way around it. but it's the right thing. it's different but in a good way. and the net result is that we've got your back.. if you go over by a bit.. we wont even charge you for it. if you go by a lot but you dont usually do it.. we'll charge you a little.. and if you're always going over.. you really should upgrade to the higher tier but until you do, here's a little something to make you think twice about it.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

said by TSI Marc:

hum. that would mean that there's no reason to take anything other than the lowest usage package...

Final thought: a lot of guys have been suggesting a tier/price between 300GB and Unlimited. You could incorporate the automatic usage blocks AND the Unlimited plus $20 for 100GB over and up. Got to have an incentive for folks to play by the rules.

Straight up Unlimited plus $20 may unfairly penalize a user who simply downloads 5 or 10GB too much. Although that's a judgement call.

yeah.. my way.. my original post does exactly. that.

..so i'm inclined to stick with what I originally though but not even try to explain it and just say: you'll never pay more than $X above unlimited. for more details go here...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

Doeboye

join:2006-11-07
Ottawa, ON

25% higher then unlimited for the 150/10 Cable account seems a bit steep... My math shows a one month cost of $275 instead of $85...

Adding intermediary packages between unlimited and 300 for all speeds, with an extra penalty on top, might be the solution.

You go over your package limit, you get temporarily bumped to the next tier and penalized on top. That would stop people from gaming the system by taking the lowest tier always, as well as encourage people to select the correct tier for their usage. At the same time, someone who downloads an unusual amount of data one month, will not get overly penalized...

Combine that with a rolling average, and the people that go over a bit won't get penalized, while the abusers will pay the price...



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

um. my ideal situation is that everybody is in their right usage tier with no overages..

overges are a pain.. it changes the amount that comes out of your account.. so then you get in to things like NSF fees.. it causes all sorts of calls...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

Man, I had too much to drink last night to make sense of half of what is being thrown around in this thread.

But I agree, the penalties should not let people just pick the lowest priced tier and abuse the system.

The simplest it could get is if Marc let go of his conscience for his customers and just charged per GB overage with either no cap or a very high overage cap likes Rogers. Of course that is not what anyone has come to expect of TSI, so hence the complex waters Marc is treading through to make it as fair as possible for both TSI and it's customers.



Davesnothere
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reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

said by Davesnothere:

said by TSI Marc:

I'm more leaning towards:

"The max you would pay is $X more than the unlimited tier."

things at this point.

 
...which is fine, but now, how do we GET there ?

IOW, by what cost steps per GB or whatever ?

voodoo majik!

you mean Tim-Bits


Davesnothere
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reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

....if you go over by a bit.. we wont even charge you for it. if you go by a lot but you dont usually do it.. we'll charge you a little.. and if you're always going over.. you really should upgrade to the higher tier but until you do, here's a little something to make you think twice about it.

 
And if your name is ANGELO, we HIRE you.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
reply to TSI Marc

This discussion, originating from TSI Marc, is very encouraging. I do wish other ISPs would take note!

Waiting for the day when I can switch back to TSI on ATPIA!



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to Davesnothere

said by Davesnothere:

you mean Tim-Bits

haha yes!
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to TSI Marc

I don't think this is a good idea and I'll explain why;

1) Too complicated. I even had to sit down and look at the numbers....Now imagine your techs trying to explain to people over the phone when they have questions about their bill (how the overage charges were calculated or why they got their package changed on them). That would be a nightmare for CSRs....

2) I would literally rather pay $x.xx/GB overage instead having my plan bumped up automatically without my consent. This especially doesn't work on certain speed tiers like the one I'm looking to get (45/4) as the 300GB capped on and the unlimited are literally double in price ($50 vs $100). I'd hate to call in every time I got over 1 month to go back to 300GB from unlimited. That is a hassle.

3) Any reasons you didn't want to do $x.xx/GB overages? Even with no maximum cap (or a cap of the difference between your current one and the real one you should have gotten based on your current months usage), I think it is the better idea. If anything, it could let people create custom packages such as 400GB on Rogers 45/4 without paying $100 for the unlimited. 50c per GB with no limit of overages is a bit steep so why not something like 40c? The math here could be worked out based on the price differences of the packages and could vary per speeds.
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

2 - there's no automatic bumping.. that was somebody else's idea. (i even think that may be against the law - unless you agree to it ahead of time of course)
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by d4m1r:

I don't think this is a good idea and I'll explain why;

1) Too complicated. I even had to sit down and look at the numbers....Now imagine your techs trying to explain to people over the phone when they have questions about their bill (how the overage charges were calculated or why they got their package changed on them). That would be a nightmare for CSRs....

2) I would literally rather pay $x.xx/GB overage instead having my plan bumped up automatically without my consent. This especially doesn't work on certain speed tiers like the one I'm looking to get (45/4) as the 300GB capped on and the unlimited are literally double in price ($50 vs $100). I'd hate to call in every time I got over 1 month to go back to 300GB from unlimited. That is a hassle.

3) Any reasons you didn't want to do $x.xx/GB overages? Even with no maximum cap (or a cap of the difference between your current one and the real one you should have gotten based on your current months usage), I think it is the better idea. If anything, it could let people create custom packages such as 400GB on Rogers 45/4 without paying $100 for the unlimited. 50c per GB with no limit of overages is a bit steep so why not something like 40c? The math here could be worked out based on the price differences of the packages and could vary per speeds.

I guess it sums up my concerns and stuff..

said by TSI Marc:

2 - there's no automatic bumping.. that was somebody else's idea. (i even think that may be against the law - unless you agree to it ahead of time of course)

Put it within your terms of service agreement. No one reads them anyways

Look at how Blizzard does it. I don't own my SC2 and Diablo accounts. Blizzard does. All I got from Blizzard is that I'm paying say $50 so I can rent a SC2 and Diablo account from them. They can revoke my access at any time.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

let me put it on paper a bit more. working on it now.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



Davesnothere
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reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

....3) Any reasons you didn't want to do $x.xx/GB overages? Even with no maximum cap (or a cap of the difference between your current one and the real one you should have gotten based on your current months usage), I think it is the better idea....

 
Charging a fair and reasonable UBB per GB for excess usage could work, but the way things are right now, with each incumbent charging the Indie ISPs such different CBB rates (AND sometimes also very different basic access per customer rates), the UBB per GB rate for customers fed thru Rogers would need to be VERY different than for the one fed thru Cogeco, for example, and the end customers of IISPs would have to be able to wrap their minds around that particular concept somehow.

After that, there would be the question of whether customers on faster packages ought to pay a different UBB rate than than those on slower packages, even if both were fed thru Rogers, for example.

Finally, would there be a max excess charge ? , and if yes, how to figure out what that would be - different for each speed ? , and for each incumbent's involvement ?

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

I don't think this is a good idea and I'll explain why;

Yes, Marc's original wording was very confusing. Here's my simplified version:
»Re: Usage - overages


Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada
reply to TSI Marc

Yanno, the ability to buy say 100GB blocks might be swell too. Didn't we used to have such a thing here...???



Davesnothere
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said by Rickkins:

Yanno, the ability to buy say 100GB blocks might be swell too. Didn't we used to have such a thing here...???

 
When I joined TSI for DSL (in 2008, IIRC), my cap was 200 GB, and a 100GB block was an extra $10

But I think that 'permanent' unlimited was the same amount extra at the time.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

yeah.. we did have the block thing for a while.. that's why I dont like it. hehe
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



d4m1r

join:2011-08-25
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by d4m1r:

I don't think this is a good idea and I'll explain why;

Yes, Marc's original wording was very confusing. Here's my simplified version:
»Re: Usage - overages

Yah I saw that but you have to keep in mind, us "advanced" users are a very small minority. My sympathy goes out to the TSI CSRs is Marc goes ahead with this plan...Its going to be a PR nightmare as most TSI subscribers won't understand it...

@Dave, of course, that is what was implied....A different per GB overage price per network and then per speed tier. Not sure if Marc has already thought of this but if he did the math, I think it could be made attractive and be a lot simpler to implement and teach people about.
--
www.613websites.com Budget Canadian Web Design and Hosting


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

It's a bit too early to be saying it will all be to complicated to explain to customers. Marc is posing this thread to get feedback. He, and TSI, are coming up with all final details of everything once all the new pricing and APOI go live (APOI being on a later timeline than DSL/West Canada/Cogeco Pricing). Once they come up with final procedure for overages, they just need to hand it to someone creative in marketing to come with simpler terms and analogies to explain everything. with the bottom line being they're doing everything to can to make sure overage charges happen never to little as possible.



Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada
Reviews:
·ELECTRONICBOX
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

yeah.. we did have the block thing for a while.. that's why I dont like it. hehe

But it make things easier for a good number users...


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to TSI Marc

Click for full size
Have a look at this.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22

3 edits
reply to TSI Marc

I shouldn't need a spreadsheet or a fancy calculator to figure out my bill... KISS. I'd propose, for any plan

Per GB overage: $0.25
Max bill: unlimited+$10

Obviously modify those numbers to where it needs to be, but all this talk of small penalties versus medium penalties versus max penalties versus the min(average,current) is crazy complicated. People want to know two things. How much a gig extra do I have to pay, and what's the worst case (max). Anything more complicated than that will make the price of their bill a mystery when they're over their limit but less than the max.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22
reply to TSI Marc

This approach goes easy on people who go a bit over, prevents bill shock if they go way over, is easy to understand, and still encourages users to try to pick the best plan before hand to save money.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
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kudos:7
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

I shouldn't need a spreadsheet or a fancy calculator to figure out my bill...

KISS.

I'd propose, for any plan :

Per GB overage: $0.25
Max bill: unlimited+$10

Obviously modify those numbers to where it needs to be....

....People want to know two things :

(1) How much a gig extra do I have to pay, and
(2) What's the worst case (max)....

 
When I put on my businessperson hat or my geek hat, I envision ideas like most of the other posts here today (including some of my own earlier ones), but when I don my John Q. Public chapeau, I see exactly what Guspaz just posted.

How CAN that be ???

Hmmmm....

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

Its going to be a PR nightmare as most TSI subscribers won't understand it...

What is so hard to understand about: "The most you are going to pay for going over your cap is $20 (or whatever else TSI settles on) more than you would pay for going with our Unlimited plan for the same speed."

That's probably the only part of the whole overage thing most people are really going to be worried about: how much extra can going over cost? As long as this very simple part is made clear, the remaining technicalities do not matter half as much.


OverageFee

@distributel.net
reply to TSI Marc

This is the old overage fee. It's simple and easy to understand.

quote:
Overage on all packages that are not unlimited will be charged at $0.50/GB to a maximum of $25/month.
If you want to introduce the new max overage charge from unlimited + $20. It's fine but it not simple enough. Why don't use the existing overage charge.

I see from TekSavvy price. The different between 75GB and unlimited for DSL and Cable is a bit below or above $20. Why don't just choose $20 + another $20 = $40 for max overage fee...

As a new rate, ISPs will pay cheaper price for DSL compare to Cable. I also see you want to lower the overage fee charge from $0.50/GB to $0.25/GB from you example of calculation.

You can charge DSL overage fee $0.25/GB max $40 and Cable $0.30/GB max $40. This will simple enough.

Or you can charge Cable $0.25/GB max $45. I think either way, you won't loosing money because it will average out either way but it will be simple for customers...

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to TSI Marc

Why not just if you wish to be forgiving for lower gig amounts Charge a Discounted per gb/ amount for the first 25 Gig over like say 10 Cents. After the first 25 Gig charge a higher number so

300 gig Included 10/cents per gig up to 325
25 cents/per gig 326 and up. etc..
with a Max Overage of X dollars.

Thus forgiving minor overages with Small Charges and Punishing larger ones. Also Using percentages prolly not much use 25% over 75 gig or 300 gig is going to be different so your usage fees will vary based on package creating more headaches etc..
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.