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aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to norwegian

Re: [poll] What will happen with Win8?

said by norwegian:

There's an option you didn't list.

Bought out by Apple.

That is about as likely as an alien abduction of the whole Win8 UI team.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


NotTheMama
What Would Earl Do?

join:2012-12-06

Maybe the Win8 UI team wants to go back home?



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

Apple has good office conditions.

Still, it makes me scratch my head on why "copy" Apple....What was so wrong to go this path?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



ccallana
Huh?
Premium,VIP
join:2000-08-03
Folsom, CA
reply to Faster

said by Faster:

One other thing subjectively that I can say for certainty is that the majority, not all, of the folks that I know that are long-time and heavy PC users having been life-long Windows users is that by far most are unhappy with Windows 8 and disappointed for a variety of reasons. I neither affirm or criticize their opinions, I'm just stating what I've encountered.

You must have a very narrow set of people you have contact with - most of the people I know who have tried and used Windows 8 (actually trying to learn how to use it instead of giving up the second they encountered a new option) actually really like the interface and enjoy using it. To be fair, most of the people I know using it are software engineers, and are paid to use it. And they are the kind of people who by default try to find solutions to problems rather than expect the answers to be handed to them on a silver platter. As a group, we have also been using Win8 far longer than most people as we develop/test software (Graphics Drivers) that run on Windows, so we see things a lot earlier and have more time with them - as well as have direct interaction with Microsoft.

As for copying Apple, who *isn't* trying to copy something from Apple these days?
--
"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us.... We are far too easily pleased." C.S. Lewis


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to norwegian

It's not copy Apple, it's go where the market is going, which is away from desktops.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to ccallana

Microsoft is copying Apple and in more then one way but Apple takes ideas from other companies as well.

I've tried every publicly available prereleased version of Windows 8 and have a Technet subscription. In addition I also bought some Windows 8 Pro licenses. So I've been using Windows 8 for a while albeit not exclusively. I don't love it nor do I hate it but I have no problem using Windows 8 either way. I'm familiar with it and it didn't take long to get accustomed to it nor did I find the learning curve too harsh.

My Wife is a programmer / developer and one day her employer of many years switched from Windows to Apple hardware running OS X. She was given a Mac Book Pro for travel / working at home and a 27" iMac for office work. She didn't have a problem making such a switch but its the type of environment people expect to learn new things when (not if) needed.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

It's not copy Apple, it's go where the market is going, which is away from desktops.

... except they tried to bring the desktop with them and failed. Apple's smart enough to know a different OS belongs for the right device, a mobile IOS on a mobile device and a desktop OS on a desktop computer.

From a UI perspective, Microsoft failed horribly with the desktop experience but did a decent job with the touch based experience.

or in other words, Microsoft tried to make a "jack of all trades, master of none."


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Mele20

Welcome to reality Mele20 See Profile the older we get the fewer of us there are and the more of them young chickens there are and ultimately the less we matter. Big businesses like Microsoft have to focus on big numbers in order to stay big and given that IT has always been a young person world, either we stay young in mind and embrace change or we will be left behind. Remember we ourselves created change and created this world, we were agents of change and agents of change we must remain or change will pass us by as it did for the people who resisted the change we created. Kids today think they know the Internet and communication technology, they forget I was part of the group that created it, I have the advantage of knowing why it is the way it is and I can see where we made mistakes and why so hopefully I can avoid similar mistakes in future, they just see the finished product, so if I can remain an agent of change I will have so much the advantage.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool



aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to Faster

said by Faster:

We all know MS has been a complete loser in the PR fix it department for the entire history of their existence so if it turns out that Windows 8 is not accepted what they will do?

They just fix the deficiencies in the next version. Because of their dominant (near monopoly?) market share on the desktop PCs they can do that, and whatever sales they lose on Win8, they're likely to pick up on the next release.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to ccallana

said by ccallana:

most of the people I know who have tried and used Windows 8 (actually trying to learn how to use it instead of giving up the second they encountered a new option) actually really like the interface and enjoy using it. To be fair, most of the people I know using it are software engineers, and are paid to use it. And they are the kind of people who by default try to find solutions to problems rather than expect the answers to be handed to them on a silver platter.

There are people who has no other option (like the people you mentioned) or the consumers who can just return the whole system if they get frustrated with the UI.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

said by aurgathor:

said by Faster:

We all know MS has been a complete loser in the PR fix it department for the entire history of their existence so if it turns out that Windows 8 is not accepted what they will do?

They just fix the deficiencies in the next version. Because of their dominant (near monopoly?) market share on the desktop PCs they can do that, and whatever sales they lose on Win8, they're likely to pick up on the next release.

I guess the unknown is in the spirit of the thread. We really don't know what will come next but we have some idea based on what has happened in the past.


dib22

join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

... except they tried to bring the desktop with them and failed. Apple's smart enough to know a different OS belongs for the right device, a mobile IOS on a mobile device and a desktop OS on a desktop computer.

Have you heard of Launchpad? Apple is slowly moving the ios look to macos as well


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to Octavean

I think we actually know more than we don't, although there are a few truly unknown pieces, like will there be an SP1 for Win8, and if yes, will it have a UI fix? I'm guessing "no" for both, but there's no substantial evidence to back up my stance.

What we do know:
a) Win8 adoption numbers are very abysmal, and probably below MS's expectations
b) one reasonable explanation behind that it is a radically different UI, especially for desktop users (the other is that aside from the UI, there is not a whole lot difference from Win 7)
c) Blue is in the development and slated to be released this year
d) There are/were Blue UI related hiring implying quite a bit of UI work
e) MS usually don't make the same mistake twice in a row
From the above, I can conclude that Blue's UI should be either more user [PC desktop] friendly, or have an option for a more traditional Windows UI.
--
Wacky Races 2012!



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

I'll refer back to what I said on page one of this thread:

quote:
said by Octavean:

I think all of this has been outlined in tech articles. Presumably,....

Windows Blue will be released in mid to quasi mid 2013.

Windows Blue will be low cost or free.

Windows Blue will maintain the Windows 8 nomenclature (like OS X)

Windows Blue will include a "UI change" (something many have been requesting but what form this change will take is unknown)

Windows Blue will have a unifying SDK with Windows Phone 8

Windows Blue will start the annual OS release cycle (again, like OS X)

I think all of the above is likely true simply because it makes sense,....IMO,....but then Microsoft doesn't always make sense,....soooo,.....


If Microsoft adopts the annual OS upgrade cycle I don't really see much room for Service Packs but who knows,...

When I said "we have some idea based on what has happened in the past" I was kind of referring to Vista going to Windows 7. I personally didn't notice much of a difference between the two and considered it a minor upgrade. A small difference in the OS equaled a big difference in PR, acceptance and mindshare,....along with a new name for the OS,.....

Minimum effort for maximum gain,...


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3

For all we know they may move to a subscription based model like they're trying to push with Office. It kind of makes sense based on the societal shift to disposable / junk computers with a 3 year shelf life.



Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·GoDaddy Hosting
reply to Octavean

I think you are pretty much right on the money. IDC came out with a scathing report last week describing certain aspects of Windows 8 as flawed.

"There were certain decisions that Microsoft made that were in retrospect flawed. "

»www.tomshardware.com/news/Window···461.html

This is the principle reason why Microsoft is going to change the UI:

One of the biggest roadblocks Microsoft likely faces is that mainstream consumers are reluctant to change. At first glance, the overhaul is too radical to the point that even corporations are reluctant to update, unwilling to spend time and money re-training employees. The move of overhauling the experience to satisfy a tablet audience has seemingly shunned the core mainstream desktop audience.

Where Microsoft fails most importantly is in the business market for operating systems. The above paragraph completely describes what I have seen. This isn't going to stand. Microsoft has some intelligent people running the company that are obviously capable of making big mistakes, but I also believe they are quite capable of correcting them. If I had any MS stock right now, I'd be really ticked off. No one talks about the shareholders, but I would imagine they will have some impact.

Microsoft has pretty much lost the consumer market. Ironically Windows 8, may hasten the move away desktops and laptops running Windows, to touch sensitive devices not running Windows. Street chatter regarding Windows 8 isn't positive and when people are ready to buy a new PC, they may just throw that idea away and get a new iPad or Android tablet.

bgraham

join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·Verizon VoiceWing

I think Microsoft has 2 problems right now and you addressed these in your first paragraph.
"One of the biggest roadblocks Microsoft likely faces is that mainstream consumers are reluctant to change. At first glance, the overhaul is too radical to the point that even corporations are reluctant to update, unwilling to spend time and money re-training employees."

At home and at work I am not going to update to Win8 because I see no advantage of paying Microsoft whatever $$'s Win8 costs to have a new OS that does nothing to improve productivity and just gives me a bunch of grief and a 30 day learning curve where I am less productive.

MS's only way to sell Win8 is by shoving it down new computer buyers throats.

The problem with that business model is that little me at home and corporations pay a lot more for Win8 than the OEM computer builders who are probably forced into Win8.

Me at home and the large corporations are not going to donate a few hundred $$'s to Microsoft every other year unless Microsoft actually does something to improve productivity in the home or corporate world.

At work, XP works and we have no issues with support or updates ending. At home I updated to Win7 on a couple of new machines. OK, since they came with Win7 and the learning curve was not that great and there are a few features that I like.

To me, a computer is something that you pay for and it has to provide some service to the user or the corporation that makes the cost worthwhile. I think Microsoft feels that a computer is a throw away item as soon as the "new model" comes out, and they are entitled to their piece of the pie.

I don't understand how MS thinks that they can sell me a OS called Win8 that might work OK on a phone or a tablet computer, when I have a desktop or laptop with no touch screen.



Alcohol
Premium
join:2003-05-26
Climax, MI
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to jap

said by jap:

said by nwrickert:

I do wonder what people at Microsoft were thinking.

You're too generous.

They were thinking tablets are going to destroy the PC industry and if they come out with a tablet OS nobody will develop apps for it.

The concept of hybrid laptops is pretty amazing. Too bad no OEM has managed to do it properly.

The idea is right, but they can't be switching people from desktop to metro in between settings. If they had another year for windows 8, it would have been better.
--
I found the key to success but somebody changed the lock.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by Alcohol:

The concept of hybrid laptops is pretty amazing. Too bad no OEM has managed to do it properly.

I'm guessing you haven't used a Lenovo Yoga yet...?

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to Kramer

I made a comment about their stock prices a while back, and looks like the stock hasn't been doing well. Clearly it dropped quite a bit around october when Win 8 was released, and never recovered.

There was no need to put out a device like this, or at least to do it so poorly. Shunned by consumers, and businesses, clearly they thought they knew their customers.

Maybe Apple will pull their head out of the sand, and allow osx to be sold on more than their proprietary packages which would provide some real competition for Microsoft instead of the free nix as the only other option for most.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by BlitzenZeus:

Maybe Apple will pull their head out of the sand, and allow osx to be sold on more than their proprietary packages which would provide some real competition for Microsoft instead of the free nix as the only other option for most.

Seems implausible: Apple is a hardware company. Selling the OS for 3rd-party hardware will cut into their profitability.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by dave:

said by BlitzenZeus:

Maybe Apple will pull their head out of the sand, and allow osx to be sold on more than their proprietary packages which would provide some real competition for Microsoft instead of the free nix as the only other option for most.

Seems implausible: Apple is a hardware company. Selling the OS for 3rd-party hardware will cut into their profitability.

I agree. Apple makes the OS for the computers they manufacture, whereas Microsoft makes the OS for everyone else's computers.

Back in the day, one of the reasons so many people complained about "Windows is so unreliable I'm switching to Linux" is because they had low-end hardware with all the wrong BIOS settings. Mac OS seems so reliable because there's a standard of quality and there's not so many settings a user can hose to make their system unreliable.


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1

While back in the 9x days many of the crashes may have been Windows' fault, the NT lineage of code (kernel) is very reliable. I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, but based on my observation, the great majority of crashes are due to drivers (usually 3rd party) or various malfunctioning hardware (often memory), and the OS can't do much about those, although error handling and reporting can most certainly be improved.

Apple only need to test their code on their own machines (a much-much smaller set) and I think they also have somewhat more control over 3rd party hardware that can go into Apples. So it shouldn't be a big surprise if the Mac OS may appear to be more reliable.
--
Wacky Races 2012!



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by aurgathor:

I think they also have somewhat more control over 3rd party hardware that can go into Apples.

Yep... if only Microsoft could have banned PCChips back in the day...


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

quote:
More evidence of Microsoft's rumored cross-platform update to Windows 8, codenamed "Blue," has leaked. The latest video obtained by MSFTKitchen has Microsoft's chief technical strategy officer Eric Rudder talking about "extending touch in even more dramatic fashion," as he more or less verifies Blue as the codename for the next Windows 8 update -- which is also rumored to,.......
»www.engadget.com/2013/03/21/micr···ws-blue/

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=utbVYi8UurA

amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·KCH Cable
reply to aurgathor

Valid point above about memory / Macs...
To this day, the Pro still uses ECC. Almost no Windows desktops do, unless you've built your own and use such hardware.

Late to this party (thread), and haven't reviewed everything, but here's my 2 cents...

As one poster on p1 said, not much, like Vista. It proved to be their platform for 7 (and a good portion of 8), which was (is) obviously a success.

I'm kind of sad they didn't put in the same ("under the hood") improvements as with Server 2012.

"9" will surely have some of these, if not most, and probably an option to skip to a 'normal' desktop.

Business-wise, we're not going for it. If we did, every desktop would have "classic shell" defaulted to boot to desktop, and we'd have to set up some other basics to make it more familiar to users.



AMDUSER
Premium
join:2003-05-28
Earth,
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to AZinOH

I did that earlier today... bought a new laptop with Windows 8 on it.
Tried to use it.. for about 5 minutes.- Called Dell tech support (I wanted them to send me Windows 7 for it)- the people in the tech support wouldn't send it. Also told me to call Microsoft.

Anyways, as it turned out, the drivers on Dells website also work for Windows 7 for this particular model. [I did not make the factory backup.] During Windows 7 setup, I had formatted the entire drive.. which seemed to take care of the problems with Windows 8.

Windows 7 is more responsive in general than Windows 8.


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

said by AMDUSER:

Windows 7 is more responsive in general than Windows 8.

May be it's because you've installed fresh new Windows 7 and comparing it to W8, bloated with advertisement trash, that Dell puts in its new Windows 8 computers.

You're a good customer for Del. Others, after Dell refused to install W7 over W8, return computer back to them. Instead, you did the W7 installation by yourself...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4
reply to AMDUSER

You just needed Start8. Then Windows 8 is ok.

I have Dell Win 8 Pro desktop bought last November. I hated it too until I installed Start8. Dell sent me a USB reinstallation stick for Windows 8 Pro and downgrade USB installation stick for Windows 7 Pro. But I had to be VERY assertive to get them. I bought Win 8 Pro rather than Win 8 precisely so I would have downgrade rights to Win 7 Pro without cost to me but I did have to push it with Dell. I posted in Dell forum and Philip Yip (Dell Rockstar) contacted an excellent Dell CSR who got the sticks for me and sent them overnight FedX. But that was after I had called tech support and got the "huh"? response.

I'm glad you were able to do it on your own. Dell doesn't put hardly any crap on the new machines (mine didn't even come with AV) but what slows down Win 8 on Dells is all the Intel crap and other tons of services that are running at boot. Most can be safely permanently disabled and the others set to Manual start. Doing this makes a big difference in the performance of the machine. Getting rid of nvtray.exe (if you have an nVidia card) that runs in the systray at boot is also necessary as there is a BIG memory leak with it and it is not needed at all. nvtray.exe would also be on Win 7, if you have an nVidia card, and it has the memory leak there also.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson