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dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to BlitzenZeus

Re: [poll] What will happen with Win8?

said by BlitzenZeus:

Maybe Apple will pull their head out of the sand, and allow osx to be sold on more than their proprietary packages which would provide some real competition for Microsoft instead of the free nix as the only other option for most.

Seems implausible: Apple is a hardware company. Selling the OS for 3rd-party hardware will cut into their profitability.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by dave:

said by BlitzenZeus:

Maybe Apple will pull their head out of the sand, and allow osx to be sold on more than their proprietary packages which would provide some real competition for Microsoft instead of the free nix as the only other option for most.

Seems implausible: Apple is a hardware company. Selling the OS for 3rd-party hardware will cut into their profitability.

I agree. Apple makes the OS for the computers they manufacture, whereas Microsoft makes the OS for everyone else's computers.

Back in the day, one of the reasons so many people complained about "Windows is so unreliable I'm switching to Linux" is because they had low-end hardware with all the wrong BIOS settings. Mac OS seems so reliable because there's a standard of quality and there's not so many settings a user can hose to make their system unreliable.


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1

While back in the 9x days many of the crashes may have been Windows' fault, the NT lineage of code (kernel) is very reliable. I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, but based on my observation, the great majority of crashes are due to drivers (usually 3rd party) or various malfunctioning hardware (often memory), and the OS can't do much about those, although error handling and reporting can most certainly be improved.

Apple only need to test their code on their own machines (a much-much smaller set) and I think they also have somewhat more control over 3rd party hardware that can go into Apples. So it shouldn't be a big surprise if the Mac OS may appear to be more reliable.
--
Wacky Races 2012!



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by aurgathor:

I think they also have somewhat more control over 3rd party hardware that can go into Apples.

Yep... if only Microsoft could have banned PCChips back in the day...


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

quote:
More evidence of Microsoft's rumored cross-platform update to Windows 8, codenamed "Blue," has leaked. The latest video obtained by MSFTKitchen has Microsoft's chief technical strategy officer Eric Rudder talking about "extending touch in even more dramatic fashion," as he more or less verifies Blue as the codename for the next Windows 8 update -- which is also rumored to,.......
»www.engadget.com/2013/03/21/micr···ws-blue/

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=utbVYi8UurA

amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·KCH Cable
reply to aurgathor

Valid point above about memory / Macs...
To this day, the Pro still uses ECC. Almost no Windows desktops do, unless you've built your own and use such hardware.

Late to this party (thread), and haven't reviewed everything, but here's my 2 cents...

As one poster on p1 said, not much, like Vista. It proved to be their platform for 7 (and a good portion of 8), which was (is) obviously a success.

I'm kind of sad they didn't put in the same ("under the hood") improvements as with Server 2012.

"9" will surely have some of these, if not most, and probably an option to skip to a 'normal' desktop.

Business-wise, we're not going for it. If we did, every desktop would have "classic shell" defaulted to boot to desktop, and we'd have to set up some other basics to make it more familiar to users.



AMDUSER
Premium
join:2003-05-28
Earth,
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Time Warner Cable
reply to AZinOH

I did that earlier today... bought a new laptop with Windows 8 on it.
Tried to use it.. for about 5 minutes.- Called Dell tech support (I wanted them to send me Windows 7 for it)- the people in the tech support wouldn't send it. Also told me to call Microsoft.

Anyways, as it turned out, the drivers on Dells website also work for Windows 7 for this particular model. [I did not make the factory backup.] During Windows 7 setup, I had formatted the entire drive.. which seemed to take care of the problems with Windows 8.

Windows 7 is more responsive in general than Windows 8.


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

said by AMDUSER:

Windows 7 is more responsive in general than Windows 8.

May be it's because you've installed fresh new Windows 7 and comparing it to W8, bloated with advertisement trash, that Dell puts in its new Windows 8 computers.

You're a good customer for Del. Others, after Dell refused to install W7 over W8, return computer back to them. Instead, you did the W7 installation by yourself...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to AMDUSER

You just needed Start8. Then Windows 8 is ok.

I have Dell Win 8 Pro desktop bought last November. I hated it too until I installed Start8. Dell sent me a USB reinstallation stick for Windows 8 Pro and downgrade USB installation stick for Windows 7 Pro. But I had to be VERY assertive to get them. I bought Win 8 Pro rather than Win 8 precisely so I would have downgrade rights to Win 7 Pro without cost to me but I did have to push it with Dell. I posted in Dell forum and Philip Yip (Dell Rockstar) contacted an excellent Dell CSR who got the sticks for me and sent them overnight FedX. But that was after I had called tech support and got the "huh"? response.

I'm glad you were able to do it on your own. Dell doesn't put hardly any crap on the new machines (mine didn't even come with AV) but what slows down Win 8 on Dells is all the Intel crap and other tons of services that are running at boot. Most can be safely permanently disabled and the others set to Manual start. Doing this makes a big difference in the performance of the machine. Getting rid of nvtray.exe (if you have an nVidia card) that runs in the systray at boot is also necessary as there is a BIG memory leak with it and it is not needed at all. nvtray.exe would also be on Win 7, if you have an nVidia card, and it has the memory leak there also.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



AMDUSER
Premium
join:2003-05-28
Earth,
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to OZO

The computer I bought was this one:

hxxps://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-15-3521/pd?oc=fncwc81s&model_id=inspiron-15-3521& [I paid less then that at Besbuy for it..]

It has an integrated Intel HD 4000 graphic chipset.
I disabled the secure boot option in the BIOS however.. even though Windows 7 is UEFI aware.

IMO, Dell should preload Windows 7 [downgrade] for onto its computers. It would save them quite a few returns, and phone calls.



NotTheMama
What Would Earl Do?

join:2012-12-06
reply to Mele20

Do you have ModernMix, too?
»www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

No, but I have considered getting it also. I have UAC disabled in the registry so I can't use Metro apps. But now that I know about ModernMix I just might reenable UAC because I might want to use some of the Metro apps if I can better control them. Plus, I read you can change how the Charms bar, and the ugly, too big black clock, look and I'd really like that.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

quote:
Microsoft is expected to deliver another set of major updates to all its core apps when it rolls out the Blue update for Windows 8 and Windows RT late this summer.

Microsoft ready to update Windows 8 built-in apps


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to aurgathor

Three things to remember about Microsoft, first they get software development, and that sometimes it takes a couple of iterations to build a successful OS that has worldwide usage. Will Windows 8 be improved, heck ya and I suspect it will be a service pack type release (likely more then one over time).

Two, Microsoft will kill unsuccessful or expired products, however Windows 8 doesn't fall into that category. Windows 8 is about touch interfaces which is becoming the new 'mouse', so expecting Windows 8 to work on your old 90's style hardware is a little unrealistic. Windows 7 might likely remain the pinnacle OS of 90's style hardware, but what a pinnacle it is.

Three, Microsoft is a different kind of company, in that they have their own agenda which has transcended most businesses. Apple might be about the bottom line, but Microsoft is about the future, for example compare R&D budgets of both companies, who is investing in 'making' the future and Microsoft isn't just 'computers' their R&D group is bringing technology to everything.

You want to try something fun and prepare for the future, try playing with Microsoft's Gadgeteer and see the coming world of IoT today.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

Interesting. You are actually claiming that no one will ever buy a desktop in the future? Maybe so... in 20 years, but that notion is nuts now. Microsoft made the same mistake you are making. The desktop is NOT dead.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Will Windows 8 be improved, heck ya and I suspect it will be a service pack type release (likely more then one over time).

You can't fix a bad design with a service pack. That broken ship has sailed and it's going to sink like the titanic, to be replaced with a new operating system in a couple seasons. Maybe that touch experience will be improved.

said by Link Logger:

Windows 8 is about touch interfaces which is becoming the new 'mouse', so expecting Windows 8 to work on your old 90's style hardware is a little unrealistic.

... 90's style hardware? Prone to exaggeration much?

My mouse and keyboard were manufactured in 2012 and if you expect to walk through the enterprise and see your gimmicky PC touch experience used to manipulate spreadsheets on 24" displays and employees touch their 400 page reports to a binder, you're out to lunch.

Touch is an effective tool when used appropriately for the right job or consumer function. Running your fingers across a screen is not the end-all be-all control mechanism that's going to replace the mouse as you assert, it's just an alternative way to complete some tasks.

Let's see, slight gestures of my hand to control a system or leaning across a desk with wide movements to move numbers...? Hmm... brilliant.


dib22

join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Two, Microsoft will kill unsuccessful or expired products, however Windows 8 doesn't fall into that category. Windows 8 is about touch interfaces which is becoming the new 'mouse',

It's not even that... the majority of us have no issue with the touch improvements... it was long over due (speaking as a person who tried tablets back in the day, ya know back when microsoft ruled the smartphone and tablet world ... the year 2000)... the issue I have still is that an operating system called Windows forces you into Fullscreen... seriously... they just need to restore the startmenu, and restore windowed mode to the "modern" apps and they will make everyone happy.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

1 recommendation

Yea, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

I suggested in another post we have this bizarre us vs. them argument, an argument created by Microsoft because they're forcing everyone to move in a direction that the majority doesn't want to move to. The touch experience should have been an enhancement to their operating system, not a forced direction. "Look here! You can still do exactly what you did before... but look what else you can do!"



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

... 90's style hardware? Prone to exaggeration much?

Not at all, what has changed on your computer in the last 20+ years? I was tempted to say 80's style hardware but I'm giving people the benefit that they waited for Windows 3 before getting a mouse. Really the only things which have changed on your computer has been bigger and faster, but otherwise how you interacted with it hasn't changed, keyboard and mouse. Microsoft tried touch with a traditional windows OS and apparently it didn't motivate consumers (perhaps the cost of touch screens was the limiting factor and not the OS).

Touch screen GUIs have a number of design issues that drive GUI changes, for example the use of gestures where you aren't touching a specific control so if you had multiple apps open which app does the gesture app to, so of course UI changes are needed, and will no doubt evolve as standards are formed, but I look at this as being like 1985 for GUI's again as the concept is just hitting mainstream and will evolve technically however the physiology of human design won't so there will always be limiting factors (eg how fat is your finger) that will trump technology.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Putting the hardware first is arse-backwards from a design point of view. In my opinion, the primary issue is the nature of the symbols that I am manipulating. My job is about manipulating 'words', be those symbols in a computer program or in a coventional document.

OK, given that I need to do that, what's the best device now and in the forseeable future? I say 'the keyboard'. On-screen touch just doesn't have the bandwidth or the tactile feedback.

I concede that, for the 'selection' part of the UI, a touch-screen may be useful (once we get past the icky-fingerprints issue, which compromises the output characteristics of the display) since it gets us back to touching the thing-on-screen directly, a la light pen but without the weight, the cumbersome cord, and the need to pick something up interrupting the typing. So a keyboard-and-touch UI is not a bad concept: but that doesn't seem to be what Windows 8 delivers, which is more of a touch-and-keyboard UI.



aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

sometimes it takes a couple of iterations to build a successful OS that has worldwide usage.

They already had a reasonably good and successful foundation in Windows 7.


Will Windows 8 be improved, heck ya and I suspect it will be a service pack type release (likely more then one over time).

I'm not sure how Win8 will be improved. What they really need to improve is their desktop OS and if they have another OS out this year, they may very well skip on improving Win8. (security fixes don't count in that)

In light of the new OS this year, I'd say there is a roughly 50% chance for an SP1, but there's a less than 2% chance for SP2, and under 1% for additional SPs. The number of SPs are decreasing with each OS, and that trend is likely to continue.


Two, Microsoft will kill unsuccessful or expired products, however Windows 8 doesn't fall into that category. Windows 8 is about touch interfaces which is becoming the new 'mouse', so expecting Windows 8 to work on your old 90's style hardware is a little unrealistic. Windows 7 might likely remain the pinnacle OS of 90's style hardware, but what a pinnacle it is.

Win8 could be successful on tablets or phones (I'll give it a benefit of doubt ) but since it's also a desktop OS, that has to be counted, too, and Win8 fails miserably there, and that's not likely to change.

With the possible addition of the touch screen and cameras, desktop hardware didn't change much, aside from being faster and better.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Not at all, what has changed on your computer in the last 20+ years?

Oh, now we're talking about me rather than the majority. That's easier.

- Multiple displays
- Large dispays, 30" & two 27"
- RAID array in my workstation
- multiple processors with multiple cores
- lower latency mice
- surround sound
- SSD's
... I don't think I should go on because this seems silly.

A touch screen display would do sweet-FA for me as I'm not going to lean across my desk swiping a 30" display. That's ridiculous.

For personal computers, people want bigger, faster, stronger. Touch? Uh, sure... why not, throw that in as a bonus.


SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by urbanriot:

A touch screen display would do sweet-FA for me as I'm not going to lean across my desk swiping a 30" display. That's ridiculous.

^ This


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

- Multiple displays
- Large dispays, 30" & two 27"
- RAID array in my workstation
- multiple processors with multiple cores
- lower latency mice
- surround sound
- SSD's

There are revolutionary changes and there are evolutionary changes. All you have listed, perhaps with the exception of SSDs are belong to the latter.

On the other hand, tablets, touch screens, pens, and smartphones are revolutionary.

BTW, I did have a dual monitor 286 system in the late 80's -- it had one 640x480 color monitor (driven by a Verticom M16) and one Hercules monochrome monitor.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

1 recommendation

said by aurgathor:

There are revolutionary changes and there are evolutionary changes. All you have listed, perhaps with the exception of SSDs are belong to the latter.

On the other hand, tablets, touch screens, pens, and smartphones are revolutionary.

You're trying to combine apples with oranges.

It's one thing to say "PC's, tablets, smartphones were revolutionary" but we're specifically discussing one of those platforms and how we use it.

Your suggestion of what's revolutionary and evolutionary is purely in the eye of the beholder. Touch screens have been around for ages, as have tablet PC's, and I see a PC with a touch screen far less revolutionary than the ability for my workstation to have a RAID5 array or 12 cores. Watching a kid play a PC game with 5.1 sound made me say 'wow', while a touch screen on a home PC made me wonder how often they have to clean it. The all-in-one form factor hovers around 0 on my care meter.

However a tablet with all my favorites, documents, music, and a smoothly intuitive OS, that's a revolutionary experience. That's a game changer. Trying to push a half-assed tablet experience onto the desktop? That's a negative experience... which is evidenced by sales.

I have many tablets, I have two smart phones, I have an ultrabook, I have an HTPC and I have a workhorse PC, and every one of those devices serves its own purpose in my day to day life and I doubt you'll find a way to combine them all together in the next decade... not until you can shove the fastest PC in the same form factor as a tablet.


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Microsoft tried touch with a traditional windows OS and apparently it didn't motivate consumers (perhaps the cost of touch screens was the limiting factor and not the OS).

To be honest they didn't do any of that properly.

1. The monitors were too expensive
2. The desktop touch preceded real tablet and smaller designed hardware that may benefit from touch designed O/S'.
3. No one really wants touch GUI with a desktop/work environment even now after tablets have market wide acceptance.
4. 2 & 3 suggest to me they have gone about it wrong twice in the R&D, so why would you suggest they do great in R&D, spend a lot, yes, but real R&D advancement, no. Not when they have messed it up twice.
5. The touch GUI O/S should stay separate from desktops, and R&D and sales of the products are still 2 different things, so they should branch the 2 separately, will Blue be any better? If they keep it up at the present rate, I'd wager 'no'.

They are trying to cut costs by putting 2 different projects into the same basket, and if they do it a third time, I can see some real big changes both at Microsoft and the market share for the O/S generally.

--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

If Microsoft were to make the changes that so many seem to want and thus make Metro optional, one would would think such a change would be trivial for them to make.

A very, very small change,...

And for the masses it would seem to be a world of difference,....

Perhaps there is some middle ground but at this point I don't think people want anything less then total compliance,...



signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
reply to aurgathor

Microsoft has a bad case of the cart before the horse disease. They thought that desktops were at the EOL and decided to shove them over the cliff all while indoctrinating consumers to their "new" (not new at all) product so they could transition and survive. By shoving something down our throats. Ask your lover if they like things shoved like that, without their consent?

Sure, we all said "so what's MS gonna do now to remain relevant?" and they knew we were asking. They thought shoving an idea down our throats would work. It didn't.

The idea that I want a greasy screen and to lift heavy arms up and in front of me, rather than happily resting on a pad sliding a mouse, well, let me put it this way: The mouse might have come AFTER the touch screen and been an IMPROVEMENT for some people, such as me.

What they do need to do is start fresh with a real new OS, learning from Unix, and FIRST and formost, remember the professionals, the software makers, the producers, and make what THEY think is revolutionary or whatever you call it.

We should have an OS on a chip.

With my TI 994A home computer games came in cartridges. OSs should come in carts. Pirates won't like that.
--
Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

1 edit

2 recommendations

reply to Octavean

said by Octavean:

If Microsoft were to make the changes that so many seem to want and thus make Metro optional, one would would think such a change would be trivial for them to make.

A very, very small change,...

And for the masses it would seem to be a world of difference,....

Perhaps there is some middle ground but at this point I don't think people want anything less then total compliance,...

I didn't do Win 8 beta but I recall reading here and elsewhere that beta testers told Microsoft to NOT remove Start, etc (it was in the beta)and Microsoft paid no attention to their own testers. Why did they bother with a public beta if they had already made up their arrogant minds? (Sounds like the once great AV company Avira which also didn't bother to listen to their beta testers).

NO ONE likes being told they are irrelevant and obsolete. When a company tells its bread and butter customers (corporate, small business) such a thing something is terribly wrong with that company. Microsoft is already taking a beating, and a huge fine, from EU. Maybe it is time that corporate America tell Microsoft where to get off. Somebody has to shake some sense into their heads .... assuming that is even possible.

Notice the sudden absence of Microsoft TV ads for Surface and Windows 8? Even the shows like Hawaii 5'0 are not quite as enamored of Windows 8. I wonder how much Microsoft had to pay to get those shows to use Surface, etc?

The really sad thing is that it would be trivial to fix Windows 8 but I doubt they will. Their arrogance is too great, plus, they are incapable of eating a bit of crow and admitting that Stardock single handedly, with two small applications, fixed Wndows 8 ...not perfectly, but so it is ok as a desktop OS.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson