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BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to Octavean

Re: [poll] What will happen with Win8?

I had heard the ms tablets were secure boot locked down to where it can't be disabled, but I cannot confirm that first hand so your older tablet might have a real advantage.

I came across people who put nix on their smartphones years ago when I worked for a cellular company, but didn't really pay attention to them. I'm sure they were already running some form of proprietary os, or nix already anyway.

Honestly after using ubuntu it's definitely useable, and an alternative, however when I was previously running ubuntu it was all over the place with it's support. While this won't apply to a tablet, the mouse movement was a slug at best, literally dragging it across my desk compared to windows, and I had to make a manual script to run a command line option to change the sensitivity of the mouse considerably from the debian documentation as the gui settings didn't go any higher. This among other issues. It will work for some, but definitely not everyone.

When it comes to the hardware, I'm sure once they bought them other than pushing out updates they don't really care what the consumers do with them, but with it being locked down will make it harder to mess with them. A person could even brick it doing it wrong, that is if an os update doesn't brick it first, and with secure boot always on the recovery options seem quite limited unless it can be flashed like most popular smartphones.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

said by Kramer:

I don't know what you would be willing to bet, but I have a beard I'd be willing to place on the line if Windows doesn't have some semblance of a Start Menu either in Beta or final form by the end of the third quarter.

You'd lose that bet.

So, does the leaked Blue have a Start Menu? No? Want sauce with that beard?
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to aurgathor
The problem with the 'walled' thing is enterprise computing will never buy into that model, internally developed and used software won't go through Microsoft's store and nor will they tolerate paying for it through the store, so there has to be another way to distribute software or enterprise computing is gonzo. While Apple's wall might keep users in, it also keeps enterprise users out.

I find it hard to believe that Intel is just going to sit back and let this go without a fight as Microsoft is a huge reason why Intel is Intel, I can't believe they aren't fighting way harder on this, but maybe we have come to the end of Win32 abilities and its time to make that next jump to WinRT.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


kickass69

join:2002-06-03
Lake Hopatcong, NJ
I doubt that we've come to the end of Win32 when most developers won't even jump to 64-bit. It's all about money and control not lack of innovation.


Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Kramer:

I don't know what you would be willing to bet, but I have a beard I'd be willing to place on the line if Windows doesn't have some semblance of a Start Menu either in Beta or final form by the end of the third quarter.

You'd lose that bet.

So, does the leaked Blue have a Start Menu? No? Want sauce with that beard?

Got two quarters to go. You really think MS would allow that to leak? I'm still waiting to hear what you are willing to put in the pot.


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
Five reasons why the Windows desktop isn't going away

1. Four million desktop apps need to run somewhere. Back in 2010, at the International CES in Las Vegas, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer noted that four million desktop programs run on Windows 7. All of those programs run on Windows 8, too. Backward compatibility is the lifeblood of Windows. The idea that those legacy apps will be orphaned in a single release is ludicrous.

2. Corporate customers and OEMs would mutiny. Corporate customers need to write custom apps that run on Windows. Those apps need to do things that aren’t possible in the highly constrained Windows 8 app model. And those corporate customers with their volume licenses pay billions of dollars in license fees to Microsoft every year for Windows. Say what you want about Steve Ballmer, but don’t try to tell me he’s going to willingly give up one of Microsoft’s most lucrative revenue streams. And if you think that, well, then you probably think Richard Stallman is next in line to be Chief Technical Officer of Microsoft.

3. Refactoring old-fashioned dialog boxes into a more touch-friendly interface is an evolutionary step. The whole point of Windows 8 is to enable touch as a primary user input mechanism, alongside the mouse and keyboard. That makes it possible for Microsoft’s PC-building OEM partners to build hybrid devices that can smoothly shift from conventional PC to tablet and back again. (I looked at three such devices just a few weeks ago.) In the first release of Windows 8, a limited selection of Control Panel functions were converted to the new modern/Metro UI. Did anyone not expect that the long-term goal was to move more and more of these functions to the modern UI? Yes, that means the old desktop Control Panel is being deprecated, and that Windows users will probably need to drop to the desktop less often in Blue. It doesn’t mean the desktop is vanishing.

4. Removing the desktop would be more trouble than it’s worth. Many hundreds of thousands of words have been written about the complexity of Windows. Windows developers have spent years making the OS simpler, and more modular, with some success. But ripping out the desktop completely is, if not impossible, at least highly unlikely. Maybe in a decade the need for the desktop will vanish. But that day won’t come this year or next.

5. Microsoft already has a “no desktop” option: Windows RT. When Windows 8 shipped last October, Windows RT shipped right alongside it. Microsoft is committed to both platforms. One has the ability to run Windows desktop apps; the other doesn’t. Does anyone really believe that Microsoft would dump the OS that sold 60 million copies in its first two months and put all its chips on the one that has sold perhaps a million or two copies in the same period? If so, I want to play poker with you.


--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to kickass69
I know it gets a lot of people but Win32 isn't just 32 bit code, its the API set that was introduced with WinNT and includes what your thinking of when you say 64 bit coding. WinRT is the replacement for Win32 (or an injected layer above depending on who you talk to), so think of it a new guts for the OS that programmers interact with. One of the features with WinRT is it natively support both the x86 and ARM architectures.

As to what type of programming most coders are do, is something I'd love to find stats for as it might be interesting, but 32/64 bit code really isn't even a consideration as its a compiler flag (and maybe a couple of code tweaks). I think most programmers wish we could get to just 64 bit code, but the problem is legacy hardware that's going to be around for a long time and its ripple effect even longer.

For traditional user apps, Windows Store seems to be the direction Microsoft is wanting developers to go. I find 'Services' to be interesting as in the Win32 -> WinForms -> WPF -> Windows Store migration, its seems to have come off the tracks before it got to WPF, so I'm kind of curious as to where these types of 'backgroundie' types of application are going to end up.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


kickass69

join:2002-06-03
Lake Hopatcong, NJ
Given that though....if WinRT becomes what Microsoft is shifting everyone to....Windows will be nothing more than a locked down OS where you can only get/upgrade programs/apps from the Microsoft Store. I'll easily go to Linux if that happens and I hope it would blowback hard in MS's face.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
said by kickass69:

Given that though....if WinRT becomes what Microsoft is shifting everyone to....Windows will be nothing more than a locked down OS where you can only get/upgrade programs/apps from the Microsoft Store. I'll easily go to Linux if that happens and I hope it would blowback hard in MS's face.

Linux, what is that? Last time I check »gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthl···2-201302 it had less then 1% of the world's desktops and has been pretty much flat lined forever despite all the 'this will be the year of Linux'.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

2 edits
said by Link Logger:

Linux, what is that? Last time I check »gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthl···2-201302 it had less then 1% of the world's desktops and has been pretty much flat lined forever despite all the 'this will be the year of Linux'.

The past is not necessarily a good predictor of the future. Yes, Linux's market share is definitely lagging, but maybe all Linux need is Windows pressing a 'self destruct' button ....

I'm not saying that Windows is at that point, but trying push on users something many don't like and don't want while hoping that said users will change is not a particularly smart move in my book, even if MS may have some noble reasons behind it. (i.e. unified interface for everything Win8 runs on)

Just to give an example, dinos ruled the Earth for millions of years, until disaster struck. And with exception of a small number of related lineages, they became fossils in a short amount of time. I know one can argue that this is apples and oranges, but still...
--
Wacky Races 2012!


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to Kramer
said by Kramer:

Got two quarters to go. You really think MS would allow that to leak? I'm still waiting to hear what you are willing to put in the pot.

nothing. But you're still losing that bet...
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
There's no bet without an additional party:)


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

I'm not saying that Windows is at that point, but trying push on users something many don't like and don't want while hoping that said users will change is not a particularly smart move in my book, even if MS may have some noble reasons behind it.

It wasn't a smart move in the financial books either. Sales were weak and their stocks dropped.

Nobility has nothing to do with it, dominating all markets (computer, tablet, phone) is what the big three want. I see Microsoft's most recent attempt as a huge flop, since the Surface didn't do as well as people claimed it would, Windows phones are nowhere near the sales of Samsung (Android) or Apple's phones, and the OS disenfranchised the desktop market.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

I'm not saying that Windows is at that point, but trying push on users something many don't like and don't want while hoping that said users will change is not a particularly smart move in my book, even if MS may have some noble reasons behind it. (i.e. unified interface for everything Win8 runs on)

But has Microsoft not done this before with some degree of noteworthy success?

The last time I recall them doing this they called it "Windows Activation" and it was a part of a very successful initiative introduced in what has become a very popular OS namely Windows XP.

I know of no Windows user who asked for or wanted "Activation" or liked it after the fact. It was just as you described above in every way and most people here don't seem to even question it or think about it now,...


Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
said by Octavean:

said by aurgathor:

I'm not saying that Windows is at that point, but trying push on users something many don't like and don't want while hoping that said users will change is not a particularly smart move in my book, even if MS may have some noble reasons behind it. (i.e. unified interface for everything Win8 runs on)

But has Microsoft not done this before with some degree of noteworthy success?

The last time I recall them doing this they called it "Windows Activation" and it was a part of a very successful initiative introduced in what has become a very popular OS namely Windows XP.

I know of no Windows user who asked for or wanted "Activation" or liked it after the fact. It was just as you described above in every way and most people here don't seem to even question it or think about it now,...

I don't think you can fairly compare the two. One is something the average user deals with for a few seconds once during the entire ownership of computer. The other is something the average user has to deal with day in and day out.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 edit
said by Kramer:

said by Octavean:

said by aurgathor:

I'm not saying that Windows is at that point, but trying push on users something many don't like and don't want while hoping that said users will change is not a particularly smart move in my book, even if MS may have some noble reasons behind it. (i.e. unified interface for everything Win8 runs on)

But has Microsoft not done this before with some degree of noteworthy success?

The last time I recall them doing this they called it "Windows Activation" and it was a part of a very successful initiative introduced in what has become a very popular OS namely Windows XP.

I know of no Windows user who asked for or wanted "Activation" or liked it after the fact. It was just as you described above in every way and most people here don't seem to even question it or think about it now,...

I don't think you can fairly compare the two. One is something the average user deals with for a few seconds once during the entire ownership of computer. The other is something the average user has to deal with day in and day out.

Oh I think I can, especially if you read aurgathor's statement, of which there was no such stipulation.

Also, you left out that some users buying OEM systems may never deal with Activation in any way for the life of the given system.......

It doesn't stop them from being governed by it, a gilded cage is still a cage,...

Ignorance of a thing, blissful or not, isn't an excuse and niether is the feeling that something doesn't effect you.

There are users that make significant changes to their system(s) in relatively short periods of time that know that they may have to re-Activate Windows due to an always on watchdog virtually in their face.

Windows OS on a subscription bases, if it comes to fruition, is no different. No Windows user I know of asked for it or wants it. If it only "seems" to be a problem once a year,.....it still fits into the above quoted discription,...

***edit***

The reality is Microsoft often requires users to swallow a bitter pill ( that comes in different forms) in order to use their products,....

That is the point,....


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to Kramer
said by Kramer:

There's no bet without an additional party:)

No worries. I'll let you know when you would have lost the bet
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
reply to Link Logger
This is true. I will say that rather then Win 8 or Media Center I did just bring online two mythtv boxes.
I have 8 on my laptop and only suffer it because I need to know it.
--
I voted for Snoopy!


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

You left out none of the above option and also Windows 8 is fine as is and MS world will continue to on unimpeded.


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
said by NOYB:


You left out none of the above option

I often had "None of the above -- please describe", but most people who voted that never described their opinion.

and also Windows 8 is fine as is

There is plenty of hard evidence showing that Windows 8, at least the UI, is not fine as-is. Some people may like it, but this poll is not about personal like or dislike.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


george357
Premium
join:2009-09-18
Weaverville, NC
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter

1 recommendation

reply to La Luna
said by La Luna:

I chose #7.

I don't really care what they do as I love Windows 7 and will be sticking with that for as long as possible. Windows 7 is a great OS, probably the best I've used.

^This! Absolutely agree!
--
malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

Cancer Cures Are Just A Crunch Away


Pjr
Don't Panic

join:2005-12-11
UK
reply to BlitzenZeus
said by BlitzenZeus:

Honestly after using ubuntu it's definitely useable, and an alternative, however when I was previously running ubuntu it was all over the place with it's support.

Please don't form an opinion of Linux based on Ubuntu. New releases are pushed out of the door way too soon and would benefit greatly with far more testing and debugging.
--
Overflow error in /dev/null


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

said by NOYB:

and also Windows 8 is fine as is

There is plenty of hard evidence showing that Windows 8, at least the UI, is not fine as-is. Some people may like it, but this poll is not about personal like or dislike.

While the poll itself isn't based on personal likes or dislikes (as you said) it is asking "What will happen with Win8?" for a reason. You cited usage numbers with a link in your initial post but such numbers can be influenced by likes and dislikes among other things.

Some of the options you provided in the poll suggest there is an inherent flaw with the new Windows 8 UI as well as you just about saying as much directly in your above post.

I neither like or dislike the new UI (or maybe there is a balance between the two that negate the choices) but I do find it "serviceable". So such an assertion of a flaw seems more like opinion,......IMO.

I understand that the Windows 8 UI is not well liked by a very vocal group but I'm not clear on if this group is capable of separating their opinion (dislike) from real flaws (bugs).


SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by Octavean:

I understand that the Windows 8 UI is not well liked by a very vocal group but I'm not clear on if this group is capable of separating their opinion (dislike) from real flaws (bugs).

In any company I've worked for, if a new design did not work as well as the previous one in the eyes of the customer, it was considered flawed. It had nothing to do with bugs but how well the product performed the task the customer expected.
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

"Omne ignotum pro magnifico."


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to Octavean
When a small number of people doesn't like something, that can chalked up to variations in taste and one can claim that those people have certain shortcomings. But when the majority of users are unhappy with something and don't buy the product, or return other products (computers) in large numbers because of a usability issue with the OS installed on them, that's a bit more than just a personal dislike of a small number of people.

If you learned to drive a car with a steering wheel, brake and accelerator, you may have issues if you suddenly got one with just a joystick.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
said by aurgathor:

When a small number of people doesn't like something, that can chalked up to variations in taste and one can claim that those people have certain shortcomings. But when the majority of users are unhappy with something and don't buy the product, or return other products (computers) in large numbers because of a usability issue with the OS installed on them, that's a bit more than just a personal dislike of a small number of people.

If you learned to drive a car with a steering wheel, brake and accelerator, you may have issues if you suddenly got one with just a joystick.

Large group or a small group concurrence doesn't mean flaw or defect. Its evidence of agreement by those choosing to opt out of buying / using Windows 8. Its not evidence of why. Nor is it evidence of that "why" being a "flaw".

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08
said by Octavean:

said by aurgathor:

When a small number of people doesn't like something, that can chalked up to variations in taste and one can claim that those people have certain shortcomings. But when the majority of users are unhappy with something and don't buy the product, or return other products (computers) in large numbers because of a usability issue with the OS installed on them, that's a bit more than just a personal dislike of a small number of people.

If you learned to drive a car with a steering wheel, brake and accelerator, you may have issues if you suddenly got one with just a joystick.

Large group or a small group concurrence doesn't mean flaw or defect. Its evidence of agreement by those choosing to opt out of buying / using Windows 8. Its not evidence of why. Nor is it evidence of that "why" being a "flaw".

When the majority of people don't buy something and/or don't like or accept it, that's pretty good evidence that something is not right. Unless the company's goal is to sell as little as possible of that product...


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
I don't think there has been any establishment of majority or quantity of people not buying or liking Windows 8 due to the UI. Furthermore an initial perception of a change from what a person is accustom to may be overcome with experience of the "new".

I know for me it was at first glance, uh no way this is not for me. But then once I had a few days usage and became accustom to getting around in the new UI. It's no big deal. Spend most of the time in desktop view anyway with commonly used apps either pined to desktop or task bar. So rarely go to the new UI.

Most people I've heard talking trash about the new UI are just echoing sentiments of others they've heard and clam up when I start drilling them on it. Usually they just haven't learned to use it yet. People can be so sheeple sometimes.

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Kerodo

join:2004-05-08
56% of the people polled here think that "MS will quietly abandon Windows 8"... that's a majority, and you don't "quietly abandon" anything except a failure.

I also think most of the people here (in this poll anyway) have probably actually used it for some period of time, and have formed definite opinions about it. I know I have, for a few months. Let's face it. It's not a good thing....


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to Kerodo
said by Kerodo:

said by Octavean:

said by aurgathor:

When a small number of people doesn't like something, that can chalked up to variations in taste and one can claim that those people have certain shortcomings. But when the majority of users are unhappy with something and don't buy the product, or return other products (computers) in large numbers because of a usability issue with the OS installed on them, that's a bit more than just a personal dislike of a small number of people.

If you learned to drive a car with a steering wheel, brake and accelerator, you may have issues if you suddenly got one with just a joystick.

Large group or a small group concurrence doesn't mean flaw or defect. Its evidence of agreement by those choosing to opt out of buying / using Windows 8. Its not evidence of why. Nor is it evidence of that "why" being a "flaw".

When the majority of people don't buy something and/or don't like or accept it, that's pretty good evidence that something is not right. Unless the company's goal is to sell as little as possible of that product...

A beef salesman wonders why he can't sell any of his product to the people around him,....the meat must be bad he thought, he was sure of it. Little did he know that the people around him were all Hindu and were therefore culturally / religiously predisposed to never consume such a meat product.

With Windows and its users, years of experience with a specific set of expectations (like the Start button for example) may predispose users to a similar phenomena resulting in unceremonious rejection of anything signicently different,.......such as Windows 8.

It may be a subtle point but I am not questioning the existence of a phenomena but rather its cause or causes.

Saying the equivalent of "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" is vague at best. It doesn't even come close,...