 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Hall
Re: Replace TP valve or water heater? said by Hall:said by jjoshua:If the tank is out of warranty then it's time to replace it. ?? Are you serious ? I just replaced our water heater. Previous owners had it installed in 1985. Sure, it may not have been the most efficient one out there (on the other hand, in the summer when the gas furnace isn't being used, I have no complaints about my gas bill, which is 100% from the WH). It did develop a leak, but it was more or less a "dribble". We didn't do anything about it for 3-4 days (waited until the weekend to have plenty of time to change it). Yes. The sweet spot with water heaters is 6 years. If it lasts more than that, it's good. But is is also due for replacement. Mine is a rental. The installers tell me that 10 years is average.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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 rfharThe World Sport, Played In Every CountryPremium
join:2001-03-26
Buicktown,Mi | said by DKS:said by Hall:said by jjoshua:If the tank is out of warranty then it's time to replace it. ?? Are you serious ? I just replaced our water heater. Previous owners had it installed in 1985. Sure, it may not have been the most efficient one out there (on the other hand, in the summer when the gas furnace isn't being used, I have no complaints about my gas bill, which is 100% from the WH). It did develop a leak, but it was more or less a "dribble". We didn't do anything about it for 3-4 days (waited until the weekend to have plenty of time to change it). Yes. The sweet spot with water heaters is 6 years. If it lasts more than that, it's good. But is is also due for replacement. Mine is a rental. The installers tell me that 10 years is average. I have never had one last less than twenty years. Of course I let a pro tell me what to buy.
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 TA63ST215WPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
·TekSavvy DSL
 ·Cogeco Cable
| reply to Hall
said by Hall:[Every one that fails under warranty is one too many.
Especially when there may be liability for water leakage.
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The talented hawk speaks French. |
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| reply to TheSMJ
18 years? Time for a re&re lol |
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DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to rfhar
said by rfhar:I have never had one last less than twenty years. Of course I let a pro tell me what to buy.
Lucky you.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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 jack bGone FishingPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1 | reply to TA63
said by TA63:Especially when there may be liability for water leakage.
No tank manufacturer has any liability whatsoever for water damage from a leaker. They are only on the hook for the replacement tank, prorated in many cases, and not even the associated removal/installation labor cost.
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TA63ST215WPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2 | I find that somewhat difficult to believe.
I would not be the least surprised to know that they disavow liability, I just can't see that they actually have none.
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The talented hawk speaks French. |
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jack bGone FishingPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
kudos:1 | The majority of manufacturers installation instructions include a standard disclaimer:
said by American Water Heater :Under no circumstance will the manufacturer be held
liable for any water damage in connection with this
water heater. They instruct to either install the heater in a pan piped to a drain, or where a leak will not cause property damage.
Kinda straightforward.
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 HallPremium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
kudos:2 | Yeap, I remember reading wording along those lines just a few weeks ago when I installed ours. |
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| reply to Hall
said by Hall:said by jjoshua:Yes. HWH tanks are engineered to last the life of the warranty. Anything longer is borrowed time.
I call bullsh*t on that. No one can design (predict) how long components can last accurately enough to do that. If they did design this way, plenty of water heaters will fail before the warranty is up and by plenty, I mean "too many" as far as the manufacturer is concerned. By the same token, many will last longer as well, but companies won't consider that a wash. Every one that fails under warranty is one too many. Actually, in this day and age material science can tell you exactly how long it is likely to last. No matter how well they build it, there will always be defective units or units that fail earlier then expected. This is built into the cost of the product. When they engineer something to last just the length of the warranty they know a few will probably fail sooner; if the cost of replacing those units is less then how much they save by using thinner/cheaper materials then they have no problem with doing that.
/M |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
 ·callwithus
·Callcentric
| True enough, warranty length is a matter of statistics. In this case the manufacturers no doubt look at the type of water it's likely to be exposed to (market-wide distribution of hardness, pH) and go for a 95-99% survival rate for the warranty period. If you have water that's less abusive (higher pH, less damaging minerals) it will last longer.
Part of the equation with water heaters is how much anode rod they supply -- they know that more anode material will make the tank last longer, but adding more than needed to survive the warranty is a waste of money. So, if you're good about keeping up with the anode changes you can definitely beat the system (at least for corrosion, but that's the major failure mode).
I think that the consumer's sweet spot is to not pay for a "premium" heater and be diligent about maintaining it -- regular flushes out the drain and refreshing the anode (or using an active anode). Doing those two things can make even a cheapie tank WAY outlive its warranty, no question. It's just that few people do those things. |
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Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | reply to mackey
I agree that the OP should replace the water heater. This is a comment on the other discussions. The life of a tank can be affected by various things:
The water as it enters the house -- acid, base, minerals, and more
Whether there is a water softener
The anode rod material and whether it is replaced (maybe with a powered anode).
The tank construction.
Whether a glass lining got cracked.
I suspect the temperature of the water and the usage might even play a part. If you want to increase the life of your tank, consider replacing the anode. You may need an impact wrench and a big socket. Use teflon tape when you put the new anode in. You do not need to tighten the new anode nearly as much as the old one was tightened. |
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| reply to mackey
Actually no, even in this day and age there are far too many variables to even begin to estimate lifespan more than make a best guess about it or go by historical data on prior designs. Surely you can think of a few variables. Most water heaters last closer to 2x their warranty length than 1x.
They do not engineer them to only last the life of the warranty, except to factor in worst case usage/stress which we should assume isn't the situation unless told otherwise.
They also factor in their company reputation because the people dealing with replacements know a crap unit when they see it. |
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bn1221
join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Hall
There are testing labs (ETL, Intertek, UL) that have whole divisions specifically to product test till failure. Then the warranty can be written to less than that.
Ever wonder why a "WalMart Special" laptop with a 12 month warranty dies after 13 months? |
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 JtmoPremium
join:2001-05-20
Novato, CA | reply to TheSMJ
The unanswered question is how much was your time worth to replumb a broken tank and the subsequent cleanup of the basement after another leak? Take what you make an hour x time. |
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| reply to TheSMJ
18 years is a good lifetime for a modern water-heater. The OP did not specify the heating type (oil, gas, electric, indirect) but this is a factor in the lifetime. Water hardness is another factor. Water temperature setting is still another factor. Usage pattern is another significant factor.
Most water heaters I have seen have replaceable dip tube, though I have seen models without.
Sacrificial anode replacement is standard maintenance, and doing so prior to complete loss will only serve to maintain the engineered lifetime of the water heater and would not specifically extend it further (IE: this maintenance is expected and required).
Standard practice for current models is to engineer for the warranty lifetime only. If a water heater fails at 10 years and one day with a 10 year warranty then it has met its engineered goal. This does not mean it will not last another 10 years, and only means that it is designed to last only a minimum of 10 years. As already noted there are many factors that contribute to failure so the goal is to make the water heater last at least the lifetime of the warranty.
Since the heating method was not identified it is not possible to speculate, but if steam was coming out of the overflow (T&P relief) it would seem that perhaps the water was being overheated. Again speculation is really worthless without more detail, but faulty thermostat controls (whether for part failure, scale accumulation, or material degration) could be the problem.
At 18 years one has to question the value of continuing to maintain the unit. Replacement may or may not be the best answer, but given the age at some point further maintenance costs will be a pure loss/waste. |
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| reply to James_C
said by James_C:They do not engineer them to only last the life of the warranty, except to factor in worst case usage/stress which we should assume isn't the situation unless told otherwise Actually this is exactly what is done and it is not a simple calculation.
Usage patterns are charted, and a cost analysis is done to determine the appropriate percentage of failures that is acceptable based on unit cost. The target profit margin determines the loss percentage (for failures covered by warranty).
From that the unit is engineered such that the minimum number of units that exceed the warranty lifetime, by percentage, is met.
Warranties are not designed for zero claims, and product lifetimes are not engineered for 100% clearance of the warranty. Everything is a complicated numbers game based on statistics.
Yes, water heaters, like many other products, are engineered based on the warranty. Life beyond the warranty is expected but is gravy for the consumer. |
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| I'm sure you've read that somewhere because in some cases it is true, but in many cases it most definitely is not true. Most products outlast the warranty by quite a margin. It's not "gravy" at all to expect the average product to last multiple times the warranty period. It's not only about replacement cost for the manufacturer, it's also about product reliability as that affects customer perception of brand.
What examples would you like because almost everything I own has this situation? Literally, 90% or more of the products around me have far outlasted the warranty. The other 10% are simply too new for me to make a guess, or I'm too lazy to look up the warranty period. TV, computer components, furniture, vacuum cleaner, water heater, furnace, dish washer, fridge, etc, etc... I'm not going to list everything I own.
While what you wrote seems to make sense on the surface, there's a staggering amount of evidence to the contrary. |
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| said by James_C:What examples would you like because almost everything I own has this situation? Literally, 90% or more of the products around me have far outlasted the warranty. There is a big difference between what you, as a consumer, experience and what the manufacturer produces. I already acknowledged that a product may last longer than its warranty.
Do you really think that all production samples have exactly the same lifecycle? Just because your experiences show that products last longer than their warranty does not in any means indicate that manufacturers engineer their products to last that long.
As I already noted it is based on statistics and profit. Some percentage will fail earlier and some will fail later. Products today are generally manufactured such that a company has enough product to last beyond its warranty to generate a profit. This means that some percentage will fail earlier and some will fail later.
I'm not sure of your point, being one sample among millions, that based on your singular experience how a manufacturer could not possibly engineer products that last only as long as their warranty. This is in fact standard practice and there will (as already noted) be some percentage that does fail within warranty and there will be some percentage that does not fail until much longer beyond that.
What other evidence do you have to the contrary? My statements are based on real-world knowledge from real world interactions and discussions. |
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| reply to James_C
said by James_C:While what you wrote seems to make sense on the surface, there's a staggering amount of evidence to the contrary. Could you provide such evidence? If there is truly a "staggering amount" you should be able to provide this easily.
At one time manufacturers did have the notion that quality products that lasted would in fact have higher sales. Thanks to competition from foreign entities that had different insight this turned out to be be false.
Across most product manufacturing products are engineered to last only long enough such that the producer is able to make a profit while still honoring their warranty. Granted this would be a small percentage of claims during that time, it still does not negate the fact that it is standard practice to engineer products such that a minimum percentage lasts at least as long as their warranty.
I will request again - please provide your claimed evidence that this is not the case. From working with manufacturers in many industries I already know this to be true. While most may find products last longer than the warranty this in no way indicates that a company engineers products to specifically last that long. It only means those samples are part of the statistical distribution on the profit side of the line. Expecting a larger percentage of samples to last longer than the warranty is not unusual and is part of the profit margin determined by the manufacturer.
This is not black and white. Some product will fail before the warranty and some will fail later. The percentage of product on either side is what is the determination for engineering such that enough fails later in order for the manufacturer to still maintain a profit. |
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