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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Teddy Boom

Re: More router questions: Rooming house with 15 tenants

The N66U is about as beefy a consumer router as you can get, currently. Beyond that you're looking at a PC running pfsense or a microtik hardware, anything else would be crazy expensive, I think.

Benchmarks seem to show the N66U can handle more than enough routing bandwidth to support 15 users:

»www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless···&start=2

The worst case results there seem to be more than enough to handle a 150Mbps connection. QoS will hurt it, but the stock firmware will be faster at QoS than Tomato. The question is how much will it hurt it?

After that, Microtik has some higher-end options. The RB1100Hx2 is $395 and has a dual-core 1066MHz PowerPC, for example.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
I'm aware of how good the N66U is but is only marginally better than everyone else's top offering (Linkysys, Netgear, Buffalo, etc). And those reviewing sites don't typically hook up 15 users concurrently and test out the performance. The issue isn't total routing throughput, it's routing that many connections at once. And then handling WLAN connections as well, the CPUs in all of these routers are all junk really, they aren't design to handle much load, which is why a lot suck at wireless performance when they're used as an all-in-one unit in houses.

Though I think the N66U will be perfect as the main router handling the internet connection, the switching & WLAN load should be carried off. Not to mention spread out WAPs will create consistent wireless range throughout the home.

Gotta remember Teddy Boom's acquaintance here is renting their home and presumably including internet access in the rent, so it's 15 other tenants sharing the connection and will be less understanding if internet goes down or is slow or wireless is poor.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Teddy Boom
The thing was tested in that review up to something like 32k or 36k connections, so 15 users should be doable even if they're all torrenting (the default on most home routers until recently was 4096).

Failing that, the midrange Microtik stuff is definitely much faster, in the $400-600 range.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
said by Guspaz:

The thing was tested in that review up to something like 32k or 36k connections, so 15 users should be doable even if they're all torrenting (the default on most home routers until recently was 4096).

Failing that, the midrange Microtik stuff is definitely much faster, in the $400-600 range.

Remeber that it's not just 15 users, as it would be with a typical hotspot scenario, it's 15 people. So each person has a smart phone, and a laptop, maybe some have tablets. I'm also guessing there would be at least 1 netflix type device.

I really want to see if a 150 mbps line can handle 15 students. If it's not maxing it out, then it just adds to the argument that a 1gbit connection is WAY ahead of it's time. This house IS the argument people are currently using for gig connections.

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4
Small businesses with 15-25 employees routinely utilize connections that are much slower than 150/10, so the internet connection itself shouldn't be an issue. If it does become one, they can get two 150/10 connections and setup two separate networks and split up the tenants between the two networks.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Teddy Boom
150/15=10, which is a faster connection than most people have for a whole family. The speed is not an issue, properly managing it is. Particularly the upstream.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


tdiguy

join:2013-03-13
150/10 is plenty for this application. It’s not about the bandwidth here. It’s all about deployment and management. Personally I would configure the system like this :

(internet)---> (cable modem*)---> (N66U**)---> (8/16 port Gigabit switch)---> (UniFi Ap’s#)---> client

*optional DSL for back-up/load balance
**Enabled: NAT, DHCP, Qos (loadbalance if applicable) Disabled: Wlan
#UniFi pro’s (dual band)

Some people may disagree with this: But I would go with UniFI Ap’s (or multiple on each floor) and avoid Ethernet connections in each room. It will save you a few bucks in installation and will help prevent unsecured routers from being connected to your network. The only downside is if the client has a VOIP device they will not be able to use it in their room. However if you have phone lines in each room back to a central location you can attach the VOIP devices to the network at your switch and be your own phone provider too.


ground

join:2008-01-16
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to Teddy Boom
said by Teddy Boom:

pfsense, monowall, whatever..

My experience shows that 99% of landlords will not like the idea of a separate computer running 24/7 because of increased electricity usage. Get something small business all-in-one from a reputable brand and forget it, otherwise get ready to be on that guy's speed dial list

Cloneman

join:2002-08-29
Montreal
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Bell Fibe
said by ground:

said by Teddy Boom:

pfsense, monowall, whatever..

My experience shows that 99% of landlords will not like the idea of a separate computer running 24/7 because of increased electricity usage. Get something small business all-in-one from a reputable brand and forget it, otherwise get ready to be on that guy's speed dial list

There's nothing wrong with a backup plan, he could always resell the Asus easily if it doesn't work out :P

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to prairiesky
said by prairiesky:

I really want to see if a 150 mbps line can handle 15 students. If it's not maxing it out, then it just adds to the argument that a 1gbit connection is WAY ahead of it's time. This house IS the argument people are currently using for gig connections.

If anything is going to be an issue it is going to be the pathetic upload speed on that connection.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to ground
said by ground:

My experience shows that 99% of landlords will not like the idea of a separate computer running 24/7 because of increased electricity usage. Get something small business all-in-one from a reputable brand and forget it, otherwise get ready to be on that guy's speed dial list

You'll be on the speed dial list either way. But especially so when something cheap is put into the roll and it will have problems and/or fail. What you're suggesting is the same thing; it is still a separate computer running 24/7.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to ground
said by ground:

said by Teddy Boom:

pfsense, monowall, whatever..

My experience shows that 99% of landlords will not like the idea of a separate computer running 24/7 because of increased electricity usage. Get something small business all-in-one from a reputable brand and forget it, otherwise get ready to be on that guy's speed dial list

If I understood it correctly, the person owns the home this is being debated about, so they are the landlord.

blasher

join:2008-01-10
Valencia, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to Teddy Boom
Will there be any issues with this being a residential account? Remember these are not family members. If these people are renting rooms from you, they are technically customers of yours I may be wrong but here in the states you should be using a business account.

You then might have to give up some speed for maybe guaranteed uptime, QOS, possibly prompter service, maybe better techs. Don't most ISP's have guaranteed speeds? Early evening is going to be the hard time. A cable setup almost always slows down then. Consistency is real important here. Who knows they may unlimited data on a tethered phone.

Are you advertising Internet connectivity or is it mentioned as a "by the way" type perk. If advertised, then you have certain responsibilities to your tenants to maintain the "plant" in good working order, which I would presume "certain" speeds, along with an agreed upon speed test site.

Just my two cents....


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
I don't see why you'd be required to have a business service. Those aren't about whether you own a business or not, its about getting better guarantee on quality & performance, even an SLA.

If its about reselling a service (which the person in question is not doing), I'm pretty sure it'd be a different conversation the ISP would want to have with you.


BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON

4 edits
TekSavvy 200/40Mbps with 4x50/10 MLPPP

$480 one time purchase (4 x $120 VDSL modems)
$416.36 service fees (4x$84.99 DSL + 4x$4 MLPPP + 4x$9.10 dry loop + $20 14 IPv4 + $4 1 Extra IPv4)

Divided by 15 customers is only $27.76/month. That price for individual IPs, 13/2.66M guaranteed and 200/40M when available looks like an awesome deal to me. Charge $45 to make back your modem and router costs.

Just curious if every apartment has a phone line and Coax why not let the tenants order their own service from Bell/Rogers and figure out to share the service/cost by themselves?


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to Teddy Boom
said by Teddy Boom:

McDonalds and Tim Hortons come up because he asked me what they use and if it would be better and/or affordable at all. I don't have a good answer for that. My instincts (biases, if you like ) tell me the equipment is more expensive but doesn't perform any differently. It is, however, actively supported by technicians, and the support mechanisms (aka remote administration) are probably more effective than on consumer equipment. I'd like to be able to answer him about what they use, even if that is the end of that branch of the conversation.

Most of those types of operations are contracted out to a 3rd party that sometimes provides their own custom flashed routers paired with a Captive Portal setup along with a billing system in some cases. WiFiGator, which deals with hotspot managagement software for the routers/servers. Usually using a modified DD-WRT Chilli setup anda radius authentication server either at a remote location or locally; its a bit much really for a rooming house, probably better suited to motels, hotels, restaurant chains, and the like. Though these sorts of operaions can be either for profit or nonprofit, and generally use business lines.
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4
reply to BliZZardX
said by BliZZardX:

TekSavvy 200/40Mbps with 4x50/10 MLPPP

$480 one time purchase (4 x $120 VDSL modems)
$416.36 service fees (4x$84.99 DSL + 4x$4 MLPPP + 4x$9.10 dry loop + $20 14 IPv4 + $4 1 Extra IPv4)

Divided by 15 customers is only $27.76/month. That price for individual IPs, 13/2.66M guaranteed and 200/40M when available looks like an awesome deal to me. Charge $45 to make back your modem and router costs.

Just curious if every apartment has a phone line and Coax why not let the tenants order their own service from Bell/Rogers and figure out to share the service/cost by themselves?

50/10 may not be supported in that area. Also Teksavvy doesn't provide any aftersales support on MLPP for residential accounts so if something goes wrong they'll be SOL.

Also being a former student myself, "internet included" is simply more attractive.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

QoS will hurt it, but the stock firmware will be faster at QoS than Tomato.

Assuming near identical QoS configurations, I see no reason for the stock firmware to be any quicker or slower than Tomato firmware there.

QoS is done almost entirely inside the Linux kernel, which both the stock firmware and Tomato have and use.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
said by mlord:

said by Guspaz:

QoS will hurt it, but the stock firmware will be faster at QoS than Tomato.

Assuming near identical QoS configurations, I see no reason for the stock firmware to be any quicker or slower than Tomato firmware there.

QoS is done almost entirely inside the Linux kernel, which both the stock firmware and Tomato have and use.

Tomato doesn't have the proprietary Broadcom kernel module, however. It's a pretty big speed hit for Tomato.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

3 edits
said by Guspaz:

Tomato doesn't have the proprietary Broadcom kernel module, however. It's a pretty big speed hit for Tomato.

*Which* broadcom module is that? What does it do?
Usually, those are just for device drivers (eg. the "radio"). Nothing to do with the in-kernel QoS core. Eg the "wl" module (which Tomato does have).

So I'm curious what you mean.
(Linux kernel developer here).

Edit: Mostly debunked; see here: »forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showt···p?t=7426
Apparently there's a proprietary "ctl" driver, for hardware accelerated NAT. But this gets unloaded or disabled when QoS is enabled, at which point the stock firmware performs somewhat more slowly than Tomato. So since we were discussing QoS here..


creed3020
Premium
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to ground
said by ground:

said by Teddy Boom:

pfsense, monowall, whatever..

My experience shows that 99% of landlords will not like the idea of a separate computer running 24/7 because of increased electricity usage. Get something small business all-in-one from a reputable brand and forget it, otherwise get ready to be on that guy's speed dial list

With 15 tenants you think the landlord is going to sweat bricks over a tiny smaller than mITX based PC...? How many fridges/stoves must in this place. A pfense box will hardly even register on his bill.

The solution needs to be solid and I echo tdiguy's recommendation on network architecture. What I especially like about this is that it should limited the tenants creating their own networks. I doubt you'll see too many break out another router in a wireless bridge type of setup. A dual WAN router would be creme de-la creme for this type of house but if the existing DSL connection is going to stay then why not have it configured in failover for the occasional blip. Sure beats the hell out of 15 tenants calling you to say the net is out again because Rogers decided to do maintenance in the middle of the day.


anon user

@start.ca
What many of the suggestions here are overlooking is the security needed between tenants as well.

Tenant A's equipment should not be able to discover Tenant B's.

Each tenant should have a wired connection to their space, which would be on a separate vlan. Most of the router options here will do this, pfsense tomato etc. If a tenant wants wireless they should setup their own AP/router.

Some wireless devices offer "guest isolation", but I'd be upset if my own devices could not communicate on the same network.


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2
Reviews:
·FreedomPop
reply to tdiguy
said by tdiguy :

The only downside is if the client has a VOIP device they will not be able to use it in their room.

Tenants could use an Obihai OBi202 ATA with the OBiWiFi Wireless Adapter.

»amzn.com/B007D930YO | »amzn.com/B007R6F7PS

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union


BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
Amazon.com doesn't ship Obi to Canada so it's actually cheaper you order from Acrovoice »www.acrovoice.ca/obistore/
--
Fiber Optics are the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR »Fiber Optic Forum.

geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
15 tenants.... Don't get caught like the Scarborough peeps.

zorxd

join:2010-02-05
Quebec, QC
Reviews:
·Acanac

1 edit
reply to Teddy Boom
15 people is nothing. Any router that can't handle that shouldn't exist in the first place.
And you are all talking about getting a super fast 150 Mbps connection.
Unless it's in the contract or the students are ready to pay more to get it, I wouldn't bother and get something cheaper. Most of them might not even care.


Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
reply to geokilla
said by geokilla:

15 tenants.... Don't get caught like the Scarborough peeps.

Could you reference whatever it is you are talking about please?
--
electronicsguru.ca

franch

join:1999-11-03
Canada
said by Teddy Boom:

said by geokilla:

15 tenants.... Don't get caught like the Scarborough peeps.

Could you reference whatever it is you are talking about please?

The don't getting caught thing was the first thing that crossed my mind. »www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/02···use.html


Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
said by franch:

The don't getting caught thing was the first thing that crossed my mind. »www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/02···use.html

I see.. Interesting

So geokilla is assuming my customer's place is illegal, which is at best a wild speculation. I guess I shouldn't expect better from the wilds of the internet though.
--
electronicsguru.ca

mario9999998

join:2000-08-25
Canada
reply to Teddy Boom
My vote is m0n0wall on an old/used laptop (add ethernet via Expresscard/PCMCIA). Laptops typically have lower power usage compared to desktops, have a built-in backup battery, and are much smaller than desktops. You can add two cheap wireless APs to cover each end of the 2.4GHz spectrum (half users on one, half on the other).

The traffic shaping functionality of m0n0wall is superb and worked perfectly for me when I lived with 4 other students (heavy torrenters). It ensured no slowdowns and VOIP connections worked fine simultaneously too.