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Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

1 edit

Unstable Moca connection.

Well I have another Moca post here and I thought I had the problem licked, but apparently not. I've been going around and around for two weeks trying to get a stable setup. One Actiontec MI424WR (Rev G) set in MOCA bridge mode, connected to the main router, LAN to LAN. Coaxial out through a (2 way) 5-2400 Mhz splitter* out to a (3 way) main splitter. The "input" (cable service) has a POE filter on it so the signal stays local. One of the legs has a Verizon Actiontec MI424WR (Rev E) and the other leg has a Actiontec MI424WR (rev G). Both MOCA "bridges" coaxial goes through a (2 way) 5-2400 Mhz splitters, the other legs being to TVs. I have all three set up per directions here and elsewhere which worked for awhile, but then the "leaves" disappears from the main routers listing (suggested I turn off time functions) and it worked for awhile. Now I come to find that even though my main router listed the main and the leaves, the leaves admin pages were inaccessible, or anything connected to their Ethernet wouldn't go through. I'm soon going to call this experiment a failure if I can't get anything stable setup.

*Other leg has a Cable modem with a POE filter on it.

Edit: Looking through I noticed "Broadband Connection (Ethernet)
Cable Disconnected" This should be disabled and was. This makes the third time this has randomly changed on me.

FW: both Actiontec MI424WR (Rev G): 30.0.16.13
FW:Verizon Actiontec MI424WR (rev E): 20.10.7.5

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
Can you provide a quick drawing as to your setup? I have 5 MoCA routers at home and they all work fine. Two of them have 2 additional wireless routers hanging off of them and one has a switch hanging off of it.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
reply to Ostracus
Well I'll cook up something later, but it happened again were the endpoints disappeared. Interestingly the root Moca device had flipped the "broadband coax" from disabled to enabled. I flipped it back and rebooted the device and the others showed up (nothing changed on them). Also I noted on the root device that "my network" , "connected devices":Coax showed zero till I did what I mentioned.

BTW even though it's disabled shouldn't "Broadband Connection (Coax) Properties":"auto detection" be off?

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
Are you sure you're not having a compatibility issue between the non-Verizon units and the Verizon ones? I only run Verizon units with the same firmware, so I don't know if that's a possible issue.

Also, have you checked to see whether you have them set to the same channel? No satellite MoCA interference (e.g. Dish)? Finally, are you splitters okay? I run my Moca using just cable company splitters instead of the satellite splitters. Shouldn't matter, but just in case I'm throwing that out there.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

1 edit
reply to Ostracus
Click for full size
My setup.
Well the splitters are Monoprice. 5-2400 Mhz. I wondered if there was an incompatibility too. I could strip it down to one or the other since I have two of either kind. I had the channels originally on 1150 but moved everything to automatic. I should amend the graphic. The Roku one is a Verizon Actiontec Rev E. I have another Verizon not connected that's an F.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
I'm a little confused. Is it a mistake on the picture showing a connection between the 2-way splitter and the cable modem?

Your setup is almost identical to mine in most ways. But I have it a little differently. Here is my setup:

1. The cable plant coax connects to the cable modem via coax.
2. The LAN from the cable modem connects to the WAN of the Actiontec.
3. The LAN of the Actiontec connects to the LAN of the wireless router.
4. The Coax from the Actiontec connects to the splitter input.

The rest is the same. My config is below:


Network (Home/Office) Properties
Connection Description:

Status: Connected
Network: Network (Home/Office)
Underlying Device: Ethernet
Coax
Coax Stats
Connection Type: Bridge
MAC Address:
IP Address: 192.168.0.1
Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.0
DNS Server: 208.67.222.123
208.67.220.123
IP Address Distribution: DHCP Server
Received Packets: 10778240
Sent Packets: 12739045
Time Span: 88:48:15
----------------------------------------

Ethernet Properties
Connection Description:

Status: Connected
Network: Network (Home/Office)
Connection Type: Ethernet
MAC Address:
IP Address Distribution: Disabled
Received Packets: 2657969
Sent Packets: 3029973
Time Span: 88:51:59
---------------------------------------

Coax Properties
Connection Description:

Status: Connected
Network: Network (Home/Office)
Connection Type: Coax
MAC Address:
IP Address Distribution: Disabled
Received Packets: 7363810
Sent Packets: 9702349
Time Span: 88:53:48
Channel: 1150 MHz
---------------------------------------

Broadband Connection (Ethernet) Properties
Connection Description:

Status: Connected
Network: Broadband Connection
Connection Type: Ethernet
MAC Address:
IP Address: 67.184.43.228
Subnet Mask: 255.255.240.0
Default Gateway: 67.184.32.1
DNS Server: 208.67.222.123
208.67.220.123
IP Address Distribution: DHCP Server
Received Packets: 11731966
Sent Packets: 6616605
Time Span: 88:54:49
-----------------------------------------

Settings for one of the "remote" Actiontecs

Rule Name:
Status: Connected
Network: Network (Home/Office)
Underlying Device: Ethernet
Coax
Coax Stats
Connection Type: Bridge
MAC Address:
IP Address: 192.168.0.76
Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.0
DNS Server: 192.168.0.1
IP Address Distribution: Disabled
Received Packets: 23735065
Sent Packets: 23220384
Time Span: 437:09:12
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
Well I'll look that over but per directions (»www.avsforum.com/t/1145636/actio···-for-all) I have the LAN of the root Actiontec connected to the LAN on the Asus router. The Ethernet of the cable modem runs into the WAN on the Asus router. I'm also going to try something else where ground loops on the coax could affect the Actiontecs, by grounding the 2-way splitters.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
I used the same instructions! In fact, I started posting quite a bit in there starting at post #13 (GooberedUp). I don't use the Rev A router anymore though.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
These Actiontecs are something else. LAN coax light off on the root. Both lit on the slave units. Can access the Pogoplug from their site. All three units have magically re-enabled the "broadband coax" connection. I can see now why the "bridge" connection isn't supported by either Verizon or Actiontec.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
reply to Badonkadonk
Interesting. I noticed on your remote Actiontec you have a DNS server listed. I assume that's because the Actiontec's aren't as transparent a bridge as one would like (more like a proxy).

Also you have your main Actiontec as your DHCP/DNS source, while on mine the Asus does all that (including wireless).

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
Hmm, I don't recall anymore if I have it set up that way because it wouldn't work unless I provided a DNS address of if I just did it and never tried without it.

My general configuration is likely a little different than most. I send all DNS requests through OpenDNS. If anyone tries to use a different DNS server, my main Actiontec will drop the packets. The only machine that gets through on a different DNS is my main PC that only I have access to in the house.

It makes sense that we would have the different routers handling DNS/DHCP. I use the Actiontec as the one that receives the WAN connection and you use the Asus. I configured my network that way because I like the extensive controls the Actiontec offers.

I have my network shut down different IP blocks at different times on different days. Mostly because I don't want the kids not going to sleep and surfing the internet instead. It used to happen occasionally when they were younger. Also, I prevent Xbox access after a certain time in the evening in case one of the kids feels like sneaking into the basement for some Xbox Live.

It's been working so well for several years now that I worry about even touching the network at all in case something happens and I can't figure out how to fix things.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:31
reply to Ostracus
said by Ostracus:

LAN coax light off on the root.

That's a problem. Have you checked your coax LAN stats?
You could have a signal issue.
»Verizon Online FiOS FAQ »How to check MOCA stats?

said by Ostracus:

All three units have magically re-enabled the "broadband coax" connection.

Try disabling auto-WAN detection on all three routers.

Advanced
System Settings
Near the bottom of the page, clear the Auto WAN Detect checkbox.
APPLY
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
reply to Ostracus
downloadVerizon.htm.zip 4,909 bytes
My connections
downloadVerizon_coax.htm.zip 4,427 bytes
Coax stats
downloadVerizon_adva···.htm.zip 5,601 bytes
Auto Wan off.
Well happened again, but this time all the coax lights stayed lit. As a test I went to one of the remote Actiontecs and plugged one end of a powerline unit into the LAN. The other one plugged straight into my computer and assigned a static address. Got some pages saved. One curious thing is the other remote Actiontec was accessible from the first remote, even if both aren't accessible from the root Actiontec. The signal can't be weak because the light on all of them is a steady green.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:31
Your MOCA stats between the router and device 1 are very low (189). This could explain some of your problems. You need to fix that.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
Click for full size
Great catch. These are how mine read and my connections are stable. Would too many splitters cause his problems?
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:31
said by Badonkadonk:

Would too many splitters cause his problems?

It can. Other causes include loose coax connectors, bad coax cable, losses from long runs, RG59, etc.

What's curious about the OP's MOCA stats is that they are asymetrical. They're good in one direction, but terrible in the other.

@OP - I'd suggest you check that all your splitters are bi-directional. Looks like you might have one that is not bi-directional. Start with checking the splitter closest to Device 1.
You need to check MAC addresses to figure out what MOCA device is Device 1 (or remove MOCA devices one by one).
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
Good point. I'd asked about splitters early on, but not because of the two way issue you spotted.

Speaking of splitters, is it necessary to use the satellite type splitters? I use the standard cable company ones, but use the lowest frequency MoCA channel. But I read somewhere that even the higher channels work reliably.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

1 edit
reply to More Fiber
Device 1 (MAC#:00:26:b8:3f:e3:f9) is the Verizon Actiontec.*

Yes, there should be two splitters between (a 2-way and a three). The cable run between Master and device one should be about 42 feet of RG6+ five feet of RG59.

*Note: The WAN address on the label is slightly different than the status page (last digit).

Edit: Looked on the Monoprice splitters and all I see is 5-2400 Mhz and Dc bypass. Nothing about bi-directional.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
You should try an Antronix, Extreme, Regal, PCT, etc. Cheap but good, and likely will work for you even if they are 5-1000 MHz.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
Brief message before out the door. Took out all splitters except the 3-way and that one I exchanged for the 5-1003 Mhz. Results above 200. Problem is it too many splitters, or the wrong kind?

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
I would guess the wrong kind, but then again you have 2-3-2 splitters before getting to your final devices. In my setup I only have a 2-4 split and a 2-2 split.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:31
reply to Badonkadonk
said by Badonkadonk:

Speaking of splitters, is it necessary to use the satellite type splitters?

1Ghz splitters are all that is necessary for MOCA. MOCA is designed for high frequency drop-off. 860Mhz (typical cable co) splitters are problematic though.
said by Ostracus:

The WAN address on the label is slightly different than the status page (last digit).

That's normal. The Actiontec has a number of consecutive MAC addresses, one for ethernet WAN, one for MOCA WAN, one for MOCA LAN, etc.
said by Ostracus:

Problem is it too many splitters, or the wrong kind?

Yes. Not enough information to tell for sure. Could be a combination of both.

Now that your MOCA stats are respectable, are you still having connection issues?
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network

1 edit
said by More Fiber:

said by Badonkadonk:

Speaking of splitters, is it necessary to use the satellite type splitters?

1Ghz splitters are all that is necessary for MOCA. MOCA is designed for high frequency drop-off. 860Mhz (typical cable co) splitters are problematic though.

I haven't seen 860MHz splitters in probably over 20 years. I don't think cable companies use them anymore.

Edit: It's probably only over the past 12 years that I can be certain we haven't had the 860 MHz splitters. Could be longer.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

4 edits
reply to More Fiber
downloadCoax Connect···.htm.zip 5,259 bytes
Coax stats.
Well it' may be "respectable", but it's also unusable. Basically ANY splitter* that I put in past just a 3-way knocks my numbers below 200. Even the one that joins the cable modem to the coax network knocks it down. And yes, device 1 & 2 have disappeared...again. Really, even my power-line units haven't given me such grief.

*As an experiment I tried all the two-way splitters I have (haven't tried a diplexer yet).

Edit: Monoprice splitters.
»www.monoprice.com/products/produ···format=2

»www.monoprice.com/products/produ···format=2

Edit: ODD? The difference? I turned off wireless on all that had it on. Maybe related, maybe not.

Final edit for tonight: Basically the cable company provided 3-way is back in the box. I still have the POE filter in place. The splitter at the main Actiontec/cable modem is the 2-way Monoprice. Device 2 has the Philips 2-way splitter while Device 1 has the diplexer. I'll see in the morning any changes.

Morning edit: Checked numbers. Had dropped during the night, hovered arout 179. 1 & 2 Disappeared. Curiously enough rebooting the main Actiontec caused numbers to go back to about 230-240. Wonder if I got a bum unit. Might be since I noticed moving the main unit will occasionally cause it to reboot. Putting the other Verizon Actiontec in, see what happens.


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:31
said by Ostracus:

Device 1 has the diplexer.

Do NOT use a diplexer. Diplexers have high return loss. You need transmission in both directions for MOCA to work.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
Indeed, and the numbers were up for a time. Anyway I've been fooling with this off an on through the day and the splitter for that device is now a 5-1003 Mhz from the cable co. Numbers look good. Just two things. One it has to be stable over time. Eventually the whole setup will be not easily accessible and I can't be doing all this. Two I've noticed that after a power failure the "broadband coax" always ends up coming up, even though I have it disabled and the auto WAN turned off. I don't know if that will be a problem or not.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
It's really odd that they revert to the broadband coax. I don't have that problem, but I'm running three D revs and one C rev. I just got a new rev I today, so it should be interesting to see if I have any issues with it.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

4 edits
downloadCoax stats r···cent.zip 518 bytes
Recent Coax Stats.
downloadSystem log.txt 717 bytes
System log
Well I've been meaning to test the unit's logic to see if there's a fall-back to "broadband coax" if the designated connection isn't good enough. Also having it on may not mean anything. Right now my numbers both ways are at least above 220. Just waiting to see if that stays that way, and resolves my issues. If so then I can move on to the rest of my plans. Otherwise cheap Ethernet switches and lots of cable, and these Actiontecs at the endpoints as WAPs and switches. Shame DD-WRT doesn't have a version past the "D"s.

Edit: Recent Coax stats in TxT format.

Yes the other devices have disappeared and anything attached. Numbers look way good so it's not those causing my problem.

Steady green Coax light on the Verizon's and the Actiontec.

Edit: Rebooting the Actiontec (a different one) brought back "device 1" and 2 aka Verizon. Wonder if Verizon's and Actiontecs don't get along even though both are Moca 1.1.

Edit: System log for unit 2, unit one the same. The main unit the Actiontec just shows Link numbers, and "Link up".

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
said by Ostracus:

Wonder if Verizon's and Actiontecs don't get along even though both are Moca 1.1.

I wonder if you may not have a point there, although you would think it shouldn't make a difference. I only have the Verizon versions. Maybe for about $15 shipped each it's worth it to try Verizon branded ones. At this point, given that the you've got good signal levels, I can't imagine what else it could be. I assume you aren't running a satellite dish MoCA system on the same wire.

Also, try taking the POE filter out and see whether that matters. It shouldn't though. I've never had an issue with the two I use.
--
"You lie!" Talk about an understatement, Joe.

Ostracus

join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY
No satellite Moca.

BTW read (»forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showt···p?t=1545) this, and he says to connect the root Actiontec (which is in bridge mode) from the router's LAN to it's WAN. While the directions I referenced earlier show a LAN to LAN connection. Confusing.