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James_C
join:2007-08-03
Florence, KY

James_C to Shady Bimmer

Member

to Shady Bimmer

Re: Replace TP valve or water heater?

I'm sure you've read that somewhere because in some cases it is true, but in many cases it most definitely is not true. Most products outlast the warranty by quite a margin. It's not "gravy" at all to expect the average product to last multiple times the warranty period. It's not only about replacement cost for the manufacturer, it's also about product reliability as that affects customer perception of brand.

What examples would you like because almost everything I own has this situation? Literally, 90% or more of the products around me have far outlasted the warranty. The other 10% are simply too new for me to make a guess, or I'm too lazy to look up the warranty period. TV, computer components, furniture, vacuum cleaner, water heater, furnace, dish washer, fridge, etc, etc... I'm not going to list everything I own.

While what you wrote seems to make sense on the surface, there's a staggering amount of evidence to the contrary.
Shady Bimmer
Premium Member
join:2001-12-03

Shady Bimmer

Premium Member

said by James_C:

What examples would you like because almost everything I own has this situation? Literally, 90% or more of the products around me have far outlasted the warranty.

There is a big difference between what you, as a consumer, experience and what the manufacturer produces. I already acknowledged that a product may last longer than its warranty.

Do you really think that all production samples have exactly the same lifecycle? Just because your experiences show that products last longer than their warranty does not in any means indicate that manufacturers engineer their products to last that long.

As I already noted it is based on statistics and profit. Some percentage will fail earlier and some will fail later. Products today are generally manufactured such that a company has enough product to last beyond its warranty to generate a profit. This means that some percentage will fail earlier and some will fail later.

I'm not sure of your point, being one sample among millions, that based on your singular experience how a manufacturer could not possibly engineer products that last only as long as their warranty. This is in fact standard practice and there will (as already noted) be some percentage that does fail within warranty and there will be some percentage that does not fail until much longer beyond that.

What other evidence do you have to the contrary? My statements are based on real-world knowledge from real world interactions and discussions.
Shady Bimmer

Shady Bimmer to James_C

Premium Member

to James_C
said by James_C:

While what you wrote seems to make sense on the surface, there's a staggering amount of evidence to the contrary.

Could you provide such evidence? If there is truly a "staggering amount" you should be able to provide this easily.

At one time manufacturers did have the notion that quality products that lasted would in fact have higher sales. Thanks to competition from foreign entities that had different insight this turned out to be be false.

Across most product manufacturing products are engineered to last only long enough such that the producer is able to make a profit while still honoring their warranty. Granted this would be a small percentage of claims during that time, it still does not negate the fact that it is standard practice to engineer products such that a minimum percentage lasts at least as long as their warranty.

I will request again - please provide your claimed evidence that this is not the case. From working with manufacturers in many industries I already know this to be true. While most may find products last longer than the warranty this in no way indicates that a company engineers products to specifically last that long. It only means those samples are part of the statistical distribution on the profit side of the line. Expecting a larger percentage of samples to last longer than the warranty is not unusual and is part of the profit margin determined by the manufacturer.

This is not black and white. Some product will fail before the warranty and some will fail later. The percentage of product on either side is what is the determination for engineering such that enough fails later in order for the manufacturer to still maintain a profit.
James_C
join:2007-08-03
Florence, KY

James_C

Member

Absolutely, shall we start in your home or mine? Whichever, one of us will have to drag out receipts, compare warranties, and note that practically everything both of us own has far exceeded the warranty period.

This is the case in everyone's home.

Sorry but you are simply wrong. You're taking an overly simplistic idea that all a manufacturer would consider is replacement cost when this could only be true in a closed market where there is no competition.

A manufacturer first has to make the sale, either making good money because of their reputation, or setting for far less because everyone considers the product junk.

You can't know something is true when it is only a "at least better than" philosophy about product lifespan. The "at least better than" (warranty) philosophy in no way limits upper lifespan nor determines average lifespan.

Let's get back to the central issue which is, is it really gravy if something lasts longer than the warranty? To most consumers the answer is cearly "No", they'll be quite upset and buy a different brand next time if a product were to fail right at the end of the warranty period. Manufacturers know this is the majority customer expectation and they DO engineer products to last longer than the warranty period.

Products that fail prematurely (even at end of warranty period) tend to come from extreme environments, misuse, or defect... not the typical, targeted application. Again, this is proven by the vast majority of property we all own, and how ironic that we're discussing this in a topic about an 18 year old water heater.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ

AVD to James_C

Premium Member

to James_C
said by James_C:

I'm sure you've read that somewhere because in some cases it is true, but in many cases it most definitely is not true.

what century do you live in? We are living in the era of planned obsolescence and the walmartization of America.
Shady Bimmer
Premium Member
join:2001-12-03

1 recommendation

Shady Bimmer to James_C

Premium Member

to James_C
said by James_C:

Sorry but you are simply wrong. You're taking an overly simplistic idea that all a manufacturer would consider is replacement cost when this could only be true in a closed market where there is no competition.

A manufacturer first has to make the sale, either making good money because of their reputation, or setting for far less because everyone considers the product junk.

I would echo AVD See Profile's question about what century you live in. Price (not value) is the primary factor in most purchases today. If quality was a primary factor for most purchases products manufactured in foreign countries using inferior parts and inferior labor would not have such high sales in the US. For items such as water heaters, for instance, if two choices have the same warranty length but one is 20% less expensive than the other, which do you think will have more sales?

I am certainly not taking a simplistic view, and in an earlier reply I even explicitly stated it is not a simple calculation.

This discussion has gotten far off topic from the OP question so lets get back on track.

The short answer is that 18 years is a good lifetime for a water heater. If an inexpensive repair or part replacement may be made that would be an option but for something this age spending a large amount of time or large amount of money on a repair likely is not worth it.
James_C
join:2007-08-03
Florence, KY

James_C

Member

The thing is, they can only work within what their parts suppliers allow.

Suppose a switch on product X is rated to last for 1,000,000 cycles but it would typically encounter only 2,000. They can't just decide "we'll buy a 2,000 switch to save money", because such switch doesn't exist.

They could say "we'll go with a lower gauge of steel", but you can't get fractional gauges at good price, the optimal thickness to a penny pincher is probably somewhere between two standard gauges.

Same with a glass lining thickness, wire quality, and any other parameter. They can't just decide to spend less to try to aim for a warranty period, only to not spend more than necessary to meet that period.

Again, the proof is everywhere around you. The theory that this is what they do, must then be tested to be proven true. No matter how much they claim that in an ideal world this is the goal, in the real world it doesn't work out that way.

If two choices have the same warranty length but one is 20% less expensive, it's time to look at the reasons why the other is less expensive. Many people do not make the warranty the primary purchase criterion.

If your claim is that an elaborate calculation lets someone sleep better at night thinking they spent the least amount possible, good for them to sleep better at night but this in no way bears on a consumer's expectation that a product shouldn't last longer than the warranty. Again, this is proven to be the existing factual state of things by the actual products' lifespans.