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vikingisson

join:2010-01-22
Mississauga, ON
reply to SimplePanda

Re: [DSL] bridge mode on Sagemcom f@st2864.

said by SimplePanda:

This is really not a great solution because of the double-NAT involved, DMZ not withstanding.

Ideally when the 50/10 availability is finalized we'll have a purchase option for a serviceable modem.

Exactly. After the previous install with these bastard modems I've given up DSL completely until proper modems can be used and owned. Granted it all works after the disaster of bad firmware but double NAT and backdoor PPPoE connections is not desired. If it also limits full speed then it's just another reason


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
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Just wanted to add for those that still have the Cellpipes... They cannot handle 50meg either, they produce about 41-42mbps in pppoe passthru or routed mode.

So yeah, 50/10 will be an adventure for those who want to use their own routers, which is pretty much all of us in here I assume.

Bell better have a solution for this soon. I doubt its the hardware of the Sagemcom that is the issue, I'm pretty sure its just bad coding in firmware.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!

Dcite

join:2006-05-12
Mississauga, ON
Do they both handle 25/10 well in pppoe pass thru though? Or is it prone to choking like a cheap router no matter how you use it?


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
said by Dcite:

Do they both handle 25/10 well in pppoe pass thru though? Or is it prone to choking like a cheap router no matter how you use it?

for 25/10 they're both fine.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


Phibian

join:2009-06-01
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to SimplePanda
I have two different models of Zyxel modems which work fine with the 7330. I don't know about speed limits above 25 since I'm only on 25/10 but I certainly get the full 25/10. I believe that they are rated to 100 though. Someone hook me up with 50/10 and I'll test it


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by Phibian:

I have two different models of Zyxel modems which work fine with the 7330. I don't know about speed limits above 25 since I'm only on 25/10 but I certainly get the full 25/10. I believe that they are rated to 100 though. Someone hook me up with 50/10 and I'll test it

What models? I would be clicking order already had you listed.


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

said by Dcite:

Do they both handle 25/10 well in pppoe pass thru though? Or is it prone to choking like a cheap router no matter how you use it?

for 25/10 they're both fine.

hehe.. fine-ish. I found the Sagemcom great for bridging at 25/10 but the Cellpipe I found would stall out frequently when in bridge mode, sometimes dropping the PPPoE connection. A PPPoE connection set on the Cellpipe would stay up without issue, but a bridge PPPoE passthrough would fail after at most 10 days, usually closer to 3 or 4. Logs on the router would show LCP-Echo timeouts and then the connection would drop.

So I'm pretty partial to the Sagemcom for bridging in so much as it doesn't randomly crash on me. Same issue with two separate CellPipe's I've had - one Ikanos, one ALU, and regardless of what router was being bridged to.

Rock solid with a Sagemcom on any router I use so I assumed it was a CellPipe issue.

The real PITA on this is that the Sagemcom is what's used with an ONT for FTTN service, and of course Bell still uses PPPoE in these situations. So using PPPoE on the Sagemcom as a router will run without issue well above 50 Mbps... The problem I guess is only bridging.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
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kudos:21
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said by SimplePanda:

The real PITA on this is that the Sagemcom is what's used with an ONT for FTTN service, and of course Bell still uses PPPoE in these situations. So using PPPoE on the Sagemcom as a router will run without issue well above 50 Mbps... The problem I guess is only bridging.

You can bypass the ONT, as long as you don't have FibeTV. You need a router that can assign a VLAN ID to its WAN port, and you can establish a PPPoE session to the ONT Directly.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to SimplePanda
Ideally I'd want Bridged Mode enabled in the firmware. But that is wishful thinking on our part. haha

With no proper Bridged Mode we can only get PPPoE passthru over IP layer. Instead of hardware layer. Which is why the slow down.

If someone has a quality business router with the ability to set the outgoing WAN PPPoE MTU for the packets. Would be interested to see if lowering the MTU would improve through put. While in a PPPoE passthru set up.

Start with a 1472 MTU on outgoing PPPoE on the router then step it down by increments of 10.

Wouldn't surprise me if the PPPoE packets from the router are getting split apart by the Sagemcom.

I've seen this before with modems from Bell. I had to set down mine to close to 1300. A proper Bridged Modem of course wouldn't have that issue at all.


heyyahblah

join:2009-02-01
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
well that sucks. I'm with everyone else. I want to continue to use my ASUS N56U router. I'm not gonna use the built-in one with the Sagemcom modem if I go VDSL. I'm on the 15/1 service and I want to upgrade but I still want to be able to use my own router and not do some crazy configuration just to make it work.

Should be set it bridge, like my current ADSL2 modem and let the router handle the rest, i never have any time outs or dropped sessions or etc, .... so yea .... this news kinda sucks.

What I will be limited to the 25/10 service only if I want to use my own router?
--
Larry, Larry Laugher .. hehe


Phibian

join:2009-06-01
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to SimplePanda
P-870HW-51A V2
P-870H-51A V2

One has wifi the other does not. I just use them in bridge mode though so I can't really comment on anything other than the stability of the basic modem which is excellent.

There are a few others on here you use these (or similar) and I believe that some of them do use the router functions as well.

Oh I should add that these don't work with stingers. They only work with the 7330.

bbiab

join:2004-05-26
And stinger is the same as saying ikanos yes?


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
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said by bbiab:

And stinger is the same as saying ikanos yes?

Yes, Ikanos is the chipset used in the Lucent Stinger remotes, and the Cellpipe & Sagemcom modems.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!

bbiab

join:2004-05-26
Would some people find it acceptable to pppoe thru the modem and use a router after it?


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
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join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by bbiab:

Would some people find it acceptable to pppoe thru the modem and use a router after it?

No. This would create a double-NAT situation and will negatively impact many applications, especially VoIP and games.


lleader

join:2011-01-01
Mississauga, ON
reply to SimplePanda
said by SimplePanda:

... the Cellpipe I found would stall out frequently when in bridge mode, sometimes dropping the PPPoE connection. A PPPoE connection set on the Cellpipe would stay up without issue, but a bridge PPPoE pass-through would fail after at most 10 days, usually closer to 3 or 4. Logs on the router would show LCP-Echo timeouts and then the connection would drop.


Thank you for this post. I had been wondering why I was getting these:

Aug 11 01:38:01 unknown daemon.info pppd[1660]: No response to 5 echo-requests
Aug 11 01:38:01 unknown daemon.notice pppd[1660]: Serial link appears to be disconnected.
Aug 11 01:38:01 unknown daemon.info pppd[1660]: Connect time 2184.2 minutes.

... usually with the connect time of 2184 minutes or a multiple of that figure. I finally removed my RT-N16 and now am using the Cellpipe alone with no further disconnects. That made me think it was the router that was the problem. Apparently it's not.


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Exactly the same errors I was getting (Tomato USB). Frustrated me like crazy.

In the end, I found someone on eBay selling a Sagemcom and bought it for like $10 + shipping. Has worked 100% ever since. Of course, if you're still on an old stringer you don't have such an option.


lleader

join:2011-01-01
Mississauga, ON
Yeah, I have Tomato USB on the RT-N16. I am on a 7330, but will hold off on another modem until Teksavvy comes up with their modem solution.


Mike2009

join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
kudos:3
We need an unlocked basic bridge modem not this crap from Bell.

bjlockie

join:2007-12-16
Ottawa, DSL
reply to bjlockie
Anyone want to telnet and see what is in the bridge API"?

»Firmware + Sagemcom Modem + Help


SimplePanda
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join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
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said by bjlockie:

Anyone want to telnet and see what is in the bridge API"?

»Firmware + Sagemcom Modem + Help

This no longer works on latest firmware (ie you can't enable the terminal as far as I can tell).


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1

2 edits
I poked around in my sagemcom's os and it looks to have hardware layer bridge only between the LAN side eth() and ath(0) when in adsl/vdsl mode.

Did not see a bridge to the DSL interface to pass traffic directly.


It does have the openRG's PPPoE pass-thru module installed though, to pass a PPPoE over the NAT->ppp1. But that is what seems to be our source of problem.

I do wish they had set these up with a bridge mode. Instead of Pass-thru.


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1
I did notice MTU CLAMP is enabled for PPPoEoA. MTU is restricted to 1412 bytes. Which may mean my previous question of if the router's MTU needs to be lower when in pass-thru may be valid. We may be seeing ATM and IP fragmentation.

We should try setting our routers to use WAN side MTU of no more then 1412 bytes. and step it down 8 bytes a time, and test stability.


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
I just did a fragment test.

With results I'd expect. The default 1492 causes fragmentation in pppoe pass-thru. Forcing MTU down to 1460 and fragmentation error 'appeared" to stop but I did get about 1:4 packet loss. Then set to 1412 bytes and I get a clean packet flow.

Highly suggest trying a 1412 MTU on your routers outbound PPPoE connection to the Sagemcom. And testing the 25/10, 50/10 connections.

My testing resulted in a 20% increase in speed on speed tests.


SimplePanda
Go Habs Go
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by BTC Kevin:

I just did a fragment test.

With results I'd expect. The default 1492 causes fragmentation in pppoe pass-thru. Forcing MTU down to 1460 and fragmentation error 'appeared" to stop but I did get about 1:4 packet loss. Then set to 1412 bytes and I get a clean packet flow.

Highly suggest trying a 1412 MTU on your routers outbound PPPoE connection to the Sagemcom. And testing the 25/10, 50/10 connections.

My testing resulted in a 20% increase in speed on speed tests.

Interesting - so your guess is that PPPoE relay on the Sagemcom might be fast enough for 50/10 if it wasn't fragmenting, which it definitely is doing due to overhead?

bjlockie

join:2007-12-16
Ottawa, DSL
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to SimplePanda
said by SimplePanda:

said by bjlockie:

Anyone want to telnet and see what is in the bridge API"?

»Firmware + Sagemcom Modem + Help

This no longer works on latest firmware (ie you can't enable the terminal as far as I can tell).

Can you look at line stats via the web interface?


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1
reply to SimplePanda
Well if you fragment all the packets, at 50mbps it should SIGNIFICANTLY decrease speed. And it IS fragmenting with a PPPoE pass-thru with the default 1492 MTU set.


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1
reply to bjlockie
web interface no, I gotta get my stats via telnet


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
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reply to BTC Kevin
said by BTC Kevin:

Well if you fragment all the packets, at 50mbps it should SIGNIFICANTLY decrease speed. And it IS fragmenting with a PPPoE pass-thru with the default 1492 MTU set.

I'll give this a shot tomorrow.

Does reducing MTU to 1412 affect anything else?
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1
not really in this case. ideally larger the packet the more data per packet. but when to large for your equipment/connection it fragments and suffers. the router has to take the time to break the packets into a size that fits. and send the extra data as an extra packet. You don't want to fragment your packets.

To simplify it a lot, think of it as sending a mail item with the post office. and it is to big, so they break apart. one package could become two, then send both of them separate from each other. do that with 50,000 you now got 100,000 letters instead.